I never argued that "pound force" didn't exist, that is a complete lie.
What you did say was this:
I corrected you by saying "ton" is not a unit of measure of force. You later added pound-force, which does not change your original statement which I was addressing nor is it relevant to me pointing out your original error.
More to the point, pound-force or kilogram-force is the measure of force exerted on the object per mass unit by gravity, which is completely irrelevant to Spider-man's train stopping feat as it dealt with horizontal forces, not gravity.
Well, that may be true but I've never seen it. You've made this personal from the start in your manner (not directed at me of course but still).
Well I sure do appreciate it, and it wasn't anything you said to me particularly in this topic, but just the way you reply like, "you fail", "you're wrong deal with it", or "I'm right deal with it". I dunno about you, but if someone replied like that to you, you'd think they are very arrogant.
And since being RIGHT was sooo important to you, I decided to feed you your own medicine - in this case, you made an assertive claim that :
Which is a factually wrong statement. I'm not wrong at all in pointing out that you were wrong. The end.
No... King Cold did not say it. If this is your idea of what "being right" is, I could understand.
But instead of saying "oh, wait, you're right. My bad", you continued to troll, just like now.
See how that works?
As for the topic at hand, everyone else has provided solid evidence which easily over-throws yours. I don't know if you genuinely think everyone else is trolling (hard to believe, but I personally still think your ego too large to back down, especially now - if I were that deep in shit I wouldn't either), but to me and everyone else, its damn obvious that at the MINIMUM, there is no substantial evidence to say that Freiza was stronger than his father.
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Last edited by Placidity on Oct 31st, 2009 at 11:26 AM
Yes it is. Please leave before you make even more of a full of yourself. A being's level of Ki is a direct indication of a fighter's overall power. Leave.
Guldo - Was part of the Ginyu force but was relatively weak. He had other abilities besides speed and high Ki.
All iterations of Buu - This one is obvious: he could pull himself together even if he was destroyed by a blast. Even down to a microscopic level.
Perfect Cell - Because he could regrow stuff, he pwned.
Goku against Perfect Cell - Goku almost won. He greatly reduced cell's Ki, despite Cell's Ki being greater than Goku's. The IT technique gave Goku the edge and had things played out differently, Goku might have won.
Now, please STFU cause I pwned you with just a few examples off the top of my head. You should leave before continuing to embarass yourself. Of course, you'll debate my above examples. Fine. I don't care. I won't respond to them as they aren't debatable.
Sure, Ki certainly plays a large portion, but it's not everything. Almost all of the fights involve some sort of technique against a more powerful being. Almost every single fight. (It would seem that you really missed the point of almost ever single fight in Dragon Ball.)
Here's what you said, more than once in more than one way:
So I said:
If you want to argue word semantics, great. But, point still stands: you said that that form of force didn't exist: it did. I proved you wrong, you refused to acknowledge it. That was actually my point, not word semantics.
But, you were wrong. I'm confused as I even provided a link proving that you were wrong.
Pound-force is a unit of force that uses gravity as a standard way of establishing force. It is literally a force unit. It was the force unit before SI was established for force.
Why the HELL do you think there are conversation factors from pound-force to newtons? If you've ever taken physics, you would know already that pound-force is and realize it isn't just applied in vectors to the pull of gravity....it can be horizontal, too.
"In most contexts, the term "pound" refers unambiguously to a unit of mass. However, in some contexts, by convention, the "pound" may be defined to refer to a unit of force. In circumstances where there may be ambiguity otherwise, the symbol "lbf" or the term "pounds-force" can be used for the unit of force and the term "pounds-mass" can be used for the unit of mass."
Then, it shows how it can be used in classical physics equations.
You are wrong. It wouldn't be so bad if you weren't so adamant about this, but you are.
I've admitted fault on many occasions. Also, that's no different from how Nemebro and I talk to each other all the time. You've mistaken smartassery for serious internet arrogance. In a real discussion, (Such as the ones in the GDF), you won't see me acting like that.
No, I'd think they were a smartass, and, by default, fun to talk to. One of my favorite things about KMC is arguing with Nemebro for PAGES. I always learn something about the topic we are arguing about and it's just fun.
That's fine. I was wrong. It's okay. Because my actual point was that Frieza was said to be the strongest in the universe...which would be stronger than King Cold. Yes, there is a difference between King Cold saying it and someone else saying. However, when that someone else says it right to King Cold's face, the difference in meaning is completely irrelevant as that person would surely die in the face of that arrogant family. People have been killed for less.
I never said you were. I was just wondering why you were rehashing something that was already covered and passed. It seemed as though you were doing specifically to troll.
That's not what I was arguing. Why are you arguing something that already passed before you even posted about?
Also, no, they haven't. I've provided more than enough evidence to prove them all wrong. There is no arguing the point. To me, everyone just wants to be right and won't admit it. I'm right in both the manga and especially the anime. I've provided that evidence. I shouldn't have to do anymore than that. I really don't understand what the big deal is. But, this is DBZ...so I can understand everyone getting their panties in a wad over something they thought was true, but isn't. However, why can't people just put aside their pride and just think rationally about it? The manga speaks for itself. Excuses like "Toriyama hadn't created King Cold yet" don't fly. Not even close.
If King Cold was so arrogant, though, he WOULD b*tch slap his son. If King Kai knew about Cold being stronger, and King Cold was obviously just as ruthless as Frieza, King Cold would certainly be a major threat and King Kai would have acknowledged it with some sort of information on Goku's defeat of Frieza being useless. (Again, you have to stay within the universe...the excuse that King Cold wasn't created yet is not an excuse, at all.)
That's why it makes much more sense that, in the previous arcs, Frieza truly was the strongest in the Universe, which is why everyone was saying it left and right, including King Kai. When Goku came out from the tank right before he fought Frieza's depowered first form, it would make sense that Frieza would be stronger than King Cold at that point as King Cold appears to be in the second form.
If someone said, "King Cold could just go to his final form and be rediculously stronger than Frieza." If he could, I would agree. However, since Frieza was said to be the strongest by multiple people and by King Kai himself, we can conclude that King Cold can't go beyond the second form. No, there's none of this "real world" stuff where people use the excuse that Toriyama hadn't created King Cold, yet. Stay within the universe and use the universe as an excuse.
If someone can provide an interview or statement from Toriyama saying that he created a plot hole or that no one was aware of King Cold before Frieza's defeat, I'll admit I'm wrong. I promise. Until then, Frieza is the strongest and it's not disputable.
And all you have is lines about Frieza that were retconned.
Yes it is, considering that King Kai ALSO didn't know about Cell or the Androids, until Goku told him about them prior to the Cell Games, as I pointed out before.
Since King Kai didn't notice them until Goku informed him, I guess that would make Frieza stronger than Cell like how you believe he's stronger than his father, right?
You don't know that for a fact. Just because Cold looks similar to Frieza's 1st transformation doesn't mean they're the same in power, or anything. After all, Frieza's and Cooler's 3rd forms look almost completely different from each other.
Cold also had reaction speed on par with that of Mecha Frieza, as shown by him also dodging Trunks's attack before he struck with his sword.
Guldo's ONLY abilities were his time and psychic powers...And he was still the weakest Ginyu member, being much weaker than anyone else, to the point where they contemplated killing him for his weakness.
Buu has that one ability sure...But still gets the shit beat out of him by someone with greater Ki.
Perfect Cell? Goku outright admitted he could not beat Cell, for his Ki was greater.
Show me one example of someone with higher Ki losing to someone with lower Ki in terms of sheer fighting.
Also, Freeza and King Cold are the same species, hell, King Cold if I recall right even outright implied he was Freeza's trainer.
All you have to say Freeza is stronger than King Cold is Freeza's delusional claims of being the strongest in the universe...Lies that have been proven wrong, even before Freeza made the claim. We have Tien directly stating Freeza is with someone (King Cold) with greater Ki than Freeza, that statement was never disputed in the manga.
Virtually every DBZ fight is about the one with greater POWER dominating the fight, unless it is a case of Goku holding back or something like that.
Yep, and needless to say, Tien is never one to make arrogant/delusional claims like Frieza. He knew what he was talking about when he sensed their Ki. No hyperbole statement involved.
Where did I say that? Show me where I said pound-force did not exist? Prove it once and for all, or stop lying.
You would have proven me wrong the moment you prove that "TON" (not pound-force, which is irrelevant) is a measure of force. Do it, or concede.
How is pound-force relevant to Spider-man stopping the train again?
I am not wrong. It is you who are being adamant.
Basically, this is what happened:
You: "...tons of force".
Me: Um "ton" is not a measure of force.
You: Pound-force is a measure of force.
Me: Ok ton is not pound-force.
You: You are arguing "semantics"
Me: No, "ton" and "pound-force" are totally different things, and you know it. I don't see how you can claim to have any understanding of physics if you don't see the difference between "ton" and "pound-force". In fact unless you are retarded (which I don't think you are), you'd be able to tell the difference. Try to talk about pound-force as much as you want - Ton is not a measure of force, it is a measure of mass.
I already know where this is going, you're going to close you eyes and shout "blah blah blah pound-force exists, you were wrong".
No, pound has two meanings. in normal usage, it is a unit of mass. However it can also mean pound-force. Ton, however does not have this double meaning at all, and is strictly a measure of mass. The closest thing would be ton-force, completely different from "ton". It's as simple as that.
None of these (pound-/ton-force) are SI units by the way, and it was just a convenient argument point for DDM. This is true because pound-force is irrelevant to Spider-man's feat of stopping the runaway train.
So in fact he was wrong on two counts:
1. Using "ton" as a measure of force, when it is in fact a measure of mass (ton and ton-force are completely different).
2. Pretending he meant pound-force since it has a double-meaning, which does not equate to ton in any way. Using pound-force in the context of the feat is irrelevant.
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Last edited by Placidity on Nov 1st, 2009 at 07:50 AM
I posted a link and everything that allows you to convert forces to different forms of force measurement which include many "ton-force" measures.
Guess what my advanced physics professor did after figuring out the average force applied to the train? He converted it to pound-force. Guess what he did after that? He converted it to ton-force.
Here's why I am so adamant about this: I've taken multiple physics courses and part of the "assignments" was converting our answers from pound-force, ton-force, newtons, etc.
On top of this, I've provided 100% clear evidence that pound-force, and by extension, ton-force, are existing.
I saw that you're arguing from another incorrect perspective.
Tons of force ton-foce. Yeah, they exist.
Here's why you're not understanding it:
pretend one object is exerting 10 tons force and an opposing force of 2 tons force meets it:
10 ton-force = 2000*10*(32.16ft/s^2)
2 ton-force = 2000*1*(32.16ft/s^2)
To stop that ten-ton force, it would take 5 seconds.
The way I was working the math out, I ended up dividing what I thought was the correct calculation…in which I simplified like terms by eliminating the acceleration vector. (which is acceptable.)
That's why I said the following:
I tried to reverse work it (work it backwards) based off a probably incorrect recollection of what I had done on it, in the past.
You can argue that the math was carried out incorrectly, because it was. You can say I eliminated like-terms incorrectly, because I might have. However, you cannot say tons as a unit of force, does not exist. Which was may point from the beginning of the conversation. (I incorrectly recalled the argument as pound-force...so what. It doesn't change my point that you wouldn't admit when you were obviously wrong.)
You chimed in with comments that seemed left field and were only made with the sole purpose of clowning me when no one would really know the wiser. It really did seem like you were trolling with statements like, "ton is not a unit measure of force", "Force is measured in newtons noob", or "Force is not measured in tons. This is fact."
With statements like those, you were obviously ignorant, or you were trolling. Can you conclude with anything else other than those two items? (I'd like to think it was a little of both, because your posts are full of condescension and contain incorrect statements.)
BTW, I did the correct math later on in the thread, from scratch. Something you refused to do that I did anyway. I told you that if my math was so wrong, you do it and prove me wrong. You didn't do it. You copped out with a "obviously x so I don't have to do y" statement.
I learned from this that:
1. You change your arguments to be right, and you're still wrong in doing so.
2. You won't admit that you are wrong and I do. I've admitted fault twice in the very thread. You claimed I never admit fault, which I obviously do and did before you made your first derisive post in this thread. I mentioned fault in the Spiderman Yu-law thread, as well.
3. You purposefully argued word semantics and ignored my actual points, just to be right (becauase I incorrectly recalled our debate being over pound-force instead of ton-force). That's really lame, imo. (Don't you agree?)
4. Not only does a unit force exist in tons, force is not JUST measured in newtons, like you said.
1. Thanks for backing me up with the tons force thing. I think it's obviou that I'm right. But it does help to have a third party's input, at times.
2. Almost every single fight in DBZ is a fight of the "hero" being lesser than the Villian, in Ki ability.
3. Guldo being weak does not change the fact that he was part of one of the, if not the, strongest military squad in the universe before the Siayans got all of their power amps. He didn't have very much Ki, but his abilities made him a powerful opponent that almost every last warrior would have fallen to. Hell, two of the universes strongest (at least in the top 20, at the time), at the time, almost died to Guldo. (Gohan and Krillin.)
4. Frieza was stronger than King Cold. I've proven it. Just admit you were wrong.
5. Vegeta saying Frieza was stronger than before may not have necessarily been Vegeta talking ONLY about his Ki energy. Vegeta just learned how to use his "Ki" sensing abilities. Probably not faulted, though. But, Vegeta was one of the ones to say that Frieza was the strongest in the universe. Makes more sense that Frieza was stronger, but had less Ki because he was part Cyborg. There was less organic left of him to produce Ki. His total energy potential was obviously greater than it was before...just a more of the energy came from his "machine" parts than his organic parts. You do know that that's where "Ki" comes from, right? (I'm sure you probably do. In fact, I'm probably wasting my time with this last point.)
1. No I didn't. Tons is not a unit of force. Ton-force is. Ton isn't. Very simple.
2. Why would I admit I am wrong when I'm not? Ton is not a unit of force. You won't find one source that says otherwise. Thats all it comes down to really. You should really concede because you will never be able to respond to this point since you are simply wrong.
Heres some credible sources that you won't find anywhere that it lists "ton" as a measure of force.
And, there were no scenes where he had met or known about King Cold, so he probably didn't know Frieza even had a father (who was stronger ) until the Trunks Saga.
What's been argued about basically is whether or not Frieza's father was stronger than Frieza, which then somehow turned into another argument about tons and measurements...
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Oct 31st, 2009 11:18 AM
It does make complete sense.
