Everyone in the Espada were at least Adjuchas, except for #9 as NB pointed out.
Seeing as there's such a huge gap between #8 and #4 (with Grimmjow/#6 a confirmed Adjuchas), I'd assume that at least #4 and up (if not #5 and up) were Vasto Lorde before they underwent Shinigamification. Then we have the release restraints imposed by Aizen.
It could also mean that he didn't know how to control it at that point . It's vast though, possibly as great as Yamamoto's is, no doubt.
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Last edited by Demonic Phoenix on Nov 8th, 2009 at 05:53 AM
As far as Starrk goes, he is likely to be a Vasto Lorde. However, it is still not definitive. Yamamoto could have killed that one young lady with his spiritual pressure as she not only couldn't breath, she passed out. She was a friggin leuitenant. Regular low-level shinigami kill Hallows all the time. Knowing this, Starrk wouldn't have to have spiritual pressure even as high as Yamamoto's in order to suffocate low-level hallow's to death.
Further proof of this: Lilynette is somewhere around lieutenant level. Ukitake treated her like she was nothing. Lilynette didn't die when she split away from Starrk. Lilynette is at least a low-level menos.
So, she's not even at a Menos' level, yet, she can stand to live around Starrk.
So, in other words, Starrk is around captain level...being able trade blows with Shunsui. However, didn't he get "the cube" treatment from Aizen, making him stronger?
Basically, we don't know if Starrk is a VL because it hasn't bee confirmed. He's certainly strong, but not nearly as strong as Yamamoto, in terms of spirit power.
It's possible that Lilynette didn't die as she was previously a part of him, hence she shared the same reiatsu...far-fetched, but a possibility. Though I'll admit, I was engaging in hyperbole.
~ Starrk seemed like he was already 'shinigamified' when Aizen met with him. It's possible the split turned him into an Arrancar.
- All this makes me wonder: If the Arrancar revert back or resemble their hollow forms when they release, are they less powerful than they were as hollows, when they are unreleased? Hollow form Ichigo is leagues above Vizard or Shinigami form. So is it possible that the Hollow side may afford more raw, 'unrefined' power than the Shinigami side?
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Last edited by Demonic Phoenix on Nov 8th, 2009 at 06:26 AM
No no...I didn't think about that and it's fully plausible. I don't have any evidence to counter your above point and it does have evidence for it. So, it's a plausible theory, though it will never be proven....
UNLESS! And here's another theory of mine...
Ichigo pulls a Naruto (cause Ichigo has done it more than once) and befriends some of the Espada...after Orihime repairs them, of course.
The original Hallow form of Ichigo's, though, was around his Vizard power....wasn't it? His second form was an evolution that no one had seen, yet. It's on a whole other level from anything else.
iirc, We didn't really see what that original form was capable of, apart from high speed regeneration, and the ability to supercharge (?) ceros. It's possible that the second form is an evolution akin to Ulquiorra's second release.
Vasto Lordes are supposedly more powerful than average captains. If Shinigamification gave them a huge boost, even the top level captains would have been hard-pressed with their unreleased forms, and yet we had Toshiro stalemating a released Haribel. My guess is that while unreleased, they are less powerful than they were as hollows, and while released, a little more powerful than they were as hollows. For the Vasto Lorde, the power increase is even less, except in the unique case of Ulquiorra obviously.
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The difference is, Yamamoto was trying to. Starrk's mere presence was killing Hollows by the dozens, and we do not know these were normal fodder Hollows, for all we know they were Adjuchas.
Lilynette is weaker than Lieutenant level. As for why she is unaffected, well, it may have something to do with her and Starrk being the same person.
Being able to trade blows with Shunsui makes you far stronger than the average captain, he is one of the strongest in the Gotei 13. Cannot comment on the cube thing, Starrk honestly to me looked like he was always an Arrancar...So dunno.
It has not been confirmed, but he is apparently more powerful than the king of Hueco Mundo...As King Kandy said, why is anyone's guess.
They are all out of order. Ulquiorra was obviously above Harribel for instance, imo. Starrk should have been really powerful since he could fire 1000s of Cero per second, but this was hampered by the fact that not only did he spend more time talking than shooting, but his accuracy was really, really bad (should have learned some sharpshooting).
clearly to Aizen, Starrk is more powerful than Barragan...
the existence of the Privaron Espada reinforces the fact that Aizen shuffles members and gives them numbers connoting rank and overall power...
this would then suggest that the more powerful hollows are outside the scope of Barragan's authority and they are clearly not subject to his rule thus relegating the title of King of Hueco Mundo as merely self-proclamation since the title itself is not indicative as being the most powerful...
which is a good thing as it gives me something to look forward to as i want to see or know who the other vasto lordes are...
maybe hitsuGAYa will be disemboweled by one this time...
I would put second release Ulq as #1 (or zero, if you want to pull a Kubo). But, yes, we go from Toshiro being a below average level captain to being able to keep up with the #3 espada in released form. Some Toshiro fanboy might say "but, but, but...he knows Kido and learned a new technique in the middle of teh fightz!" Lame sauce. Harribel wasn't affected in the slightest by that "attack"...she was just delayed.
Think about it: The Quincy can fire even more arrows per second, and he's just a friggin' human. True that his Cero's were much more powerful...but he's also got reiryoku in far excess of Ishida. I'd also like to say that Ishida is far more accurate, to boot.
Baranggan would WTF pwn Starrk with his retarded time power. The only counter I can see for it is putting it in baranggan's belly, unnoticed. (or head...or something like that.) That...and Aizen's stupid shikai ability.
Every Hallows was subject to his rule. It's not even definitive that Starrk was stronger than all BEFORE Aizen came along. It's wholly possible that Starrk got his assignment AFTER he got treatment with the hogyoku.
One thing we do know is this: Starrk did not display enough ability to be considered more powerful the Baranggan. There's no indiction that Starrk would be able to beat him.
One thing we do know, however, is Baranggan could not find anything to defeat or fight against in all of Hueco Mundo...that would include Starrk, BTW.
Also, the title was not self-procclaimed. I already posted scans that definitively asserts Baranggan as the King of all hueco mundo...before Aizen came along and started messing around with everyone. hehe
Even his first release seemed above Harribel (though we didn't see much of it). I mean nothing Vizard Ichigo did could hurt him whatsoever.
Yeah, but the big difference is that even one of those cero was capable of doing real damage to high level opponents. Whenever an Espada uses Cero, it always is very effective if not dodged. Firing thousands of those should have just reduced everyone he faced to hash.
I'm trying to think of some logic here that would connect the dots between Harribel being slower and less durable than first release Ulq...
It's true that if no one knew of Ulq's second release, he would be the strongest Espada by far...cept for the "not so strong" Yammy. Ulq certainly has the largest and most powerful destruction feat out of anyone in Bleach, so far.
Is that why he was number 1? Is it because he could pretty much lay waste to any high level opponent? So could Baranggan, though.
Still, didn't Shunsui take some of those blasts are one point?
Well clearly he wasn't first because nobody knew of his second release... i'm wondering why his first release wasn't getting as much credit though, it seems above Harribel and Yammy by far.
That would have been a good reason for him to be #1, except he did not make good use of that power... he should have been spamming ceros non-stop, instead he fired off a couple shots every minute or so that were easily dodged.
Shunsui did take some ceros, and every time they did a high amount of damage to him. Which is why if Starrk wasn't such a poor strategist (and a poor shot), he should have easily finished off Shunsui (or at least forced him into Bankai).
I'm wondering, is Wonderweiss the only Hogyoukou-arrancar? Starrk was became an arrancar due to the split while Baraggan was probably turned via experimentation. So did the others naturally evolve into arrancar?
Just out of curiosity, how would an Arrancar 'evolve' into a Vasto Lorde, a hollow specific evolution?
Ulquiorra is a possibility. He seems to be the member that Aizen trusts and 'respects' the most. Baraggan and Starrk the other two possibilities?
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"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."
No, Grimmjow is also, i suppose 8 & 7 would have to be too. Nnoitra cannot be because he was show to be as he looks now 'years' ago so.... The list is atleast limited espada-wise.
I'm unsure, but i've noted his weapons in the past is different to his current weapon shape-wise. I'm guessing they can't control it's shape.
Assumnig that to be true, since their weapons contain their true powers i'm only left to summerise his power changed so much it's even visible. Hence why i think he could be a VL. That would also explain how he's risen in the ranks.
Yes Ulquiorra seems like a likely candidate, as Neliel knew his name when they met. While this is inconsistent with her memory loss, she didn't seem to know the other espada. So i can only summerise she knew of him before, and for reason X she remembered about Ulquiorra.
Aizen only got the Hogyokou a few months ago, or a year at the most, so that rules out Syazel as he was an Arrancar a few years back.
Grimmjow is one of the 'oldest' Arrancar's in Aizen's army. He was the 12th Numeros iirc. Meaning only Shawlong was 'older'. I think that means that he was one of the first ones to be drafted or converted...
There is indeed a shape change. He gained another crescent on his weapon, and he did indeed become more powerful as time went by (that was one of his goals iirc), so your theory is plausible.
Though that's not what I was referring to. He could only be a Vasto Lorde if he were a Menos/Hollow. If you are talking about Vasto Lorde level power, then sure.
True say. I think she also knew Grimmjow's name? Seeing as Grimmjow was one of the oldest numeros, and presumably the most powerful for some time, I'd say that he was in the Espada. He could probably have been #2.
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"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."
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. It's vast though, possibly as great as Yamamoto's is, no doubt.
Nov 8th, 2009 05:50 AM
