Team Untouchable has properly established, how Photon will make use of all his abilities. And properly refuted that Photon will be, “Unfocused” as seen New Thounderboltz due to an overlooked rule out.
To this day, and age Green Lanterns constructs are still susceptible to light manipulation. All it took to bring down Pr’ two paragraph essay, on GL immunity to such weakness exploitation was a single up to date scan. With the scan showing, yet another construct taken over by light. http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/...odororeo026.jpg
On the other hand, Team Philo/Pr have failed to properly refute:
Their team can make proper use of the GL rings. They practically handed them a ten finger set, and pray Hal’s praising, or displays of solid will suffice the lack training. They even referred feats from Rookies (who by the way have also died in Black Holes), ignoring the fact that even Rookies have more formal training then either.
They will pull off eccentric devices without ever knowing how said device works. Philo sudden Special-Ed explanation, in how background knowledge is not needed thanks to imagination, and will power....Well goes against what GL mythos have build upon over the years.
Another mistake in giving rings to the Alien Duo, are the fact that they have yet to train them self’s against anything yellow. Just how effective can they be, when our entire team can emit a Yellow Glow?
------------------------------------------------------------
Team Philo/Pr announced a speed superiority over ours. Claiming we will never be able to react fast enough, to counter blitz by them. Again wishful thinking does little to trounce our team’s speed. Fact of the matter is, our team counts Photon full set of abilities. That includes his speed.
===========================================
If we play out the scenario applying prep, and strategy of both teams. Philo/Pr will bulrush focusing in taking us down as quick, and possible. They did not count on the fact that we are cloaked, or shielded. They did not count on the fact that we created a diversion, to keep them off balance.
And really the means of how they will find us are poorly refuted.
Who cares? The telepaths are tiny like atomic level tiny, not hiding their presence.
Exactly what kind of images will Superman perceive, if we are overlapping space? Its exactly how Brother Eye, kept himself hidden for months end, with out anyone ever noticing despite being hunted down by Earth Heroes.
Oh wow he makes a reference of vibrations making sound, exactly how useful can Superman be if he is listening to vibrations? You are aware that the planet we are fighting on, is full of water. Guess how many vibrations a drop of water makes…let alone waves after waves. And that’s just the ocean.
I am certain Superman will remain focus with their constructs taken over or dispersed, disarming the GL Rings, and be hit by every exploitable photonic exploitations. Red Sun Radiation alone cuts his ability to apply his power set.
Anyhow their exact location would be marked, and keyed in thanks to our satellite, energy lattice, and Cosmic Awareness. Just how much did happen, in between team Philo/Pr mauling though our diversion can be up to debate. But considering how our various advantages, and how easy it is to disarm the rings or size control of the constructs. I can assure you, they will not be at 100 %.
It goes without saying, our team will pick apart any construct team Philo/Pr can think off. Really I feel bad, for any group who picked up any Lantern of any Color. Before our Photonic manipulation, they are rendered useless. We should call ourselves the Anti-Corps.
With absolute certainty thanks to various TP shields. The Green man is not a threat in terms of Telepathic assault, even more so since Onslaught can put up a massive TP disruption on a global scale, effecting all Earth telepaths. http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/...nyxmen33515.jpg
Lets say Jolly Green goes on the TP offense. We count on Onslaught, to intercept. Pr/Philo made the smart choice of not pitting Jolly Green against Onslaught. Because we all know Onslaught will b1tch slap Mr. Jolly Green.
I think Pr/Philo where unlucky to be match up against us. The character mismatch, is so great it borderlines being “Unfair”. Their case is not helped, by the fact that they used a tired tactic. We where counting on a Blitz, and a Blitz was delivered.
I shouldn’t even bother clouding the judges’ visual field with counter-arguments to points like “He didn’t know he looked from another person’s perspective, he should have used a mirror or something, that certainly doesn’t inspire confidence! He sucks with the ring!”.That is illogical and irrelevant to Superman’s proven capacity to use it. The analogy makes this even worse. It’s one thing to turn the person in front of you invisible and not known whether or not it worked, and it’s another to not know how much of your own indentity is concealed when using the ring. Which is, I repeat, irrelevant for Superman’s ability to use the ring.
I have shown you scans proving that Superman actually experienced a whole alternate life where he was a Green Lantern and retained experience of it not only that, but he was the best of them. I have shown you recent scans of Superman easily using the ring, while Hal, considered the best Green Lantern, says that it’d help him be on top of things and that he’d be good with it. This is further strenghtened by him having one of (if not the) most powerfull wills in the DCU, the fact that he was one of the potential candidates, and the fact that in a potential future he actually outwilled Guy and took control of the ring.
You’re putting words in our mouths and twisting our arguments. He doesn’t need to be on the level of the best GLs in order to have him do the relativly basic things we’ve had him do. He doesn’t need to be above John in order to resist the things the latter didn’t for the simple fact that we’ve had time to prepare for those type of attacks during prep. His mind is protected with the telepathic inhibitors, on top of the energy redirected twoards the auto-shields.
MM doesn’t need to have any kind of special skill with the ring, all he needs is the will. We’re not having him build complex structures. We’re not having him nullify Black Holes, contain Supernovas or perform space/time alterations. We’re not even having him make constructs of any kind. We’re just having him will/program the ring for certain functions. And he has plenty of will.
And even more impressive, here’s a rookie commanding the ring to do various actions, but he can’t do it due to almost being depleted but, it still goes to show that a ring can simply be willed to do something:
Fighting a guy who did the exact same thing is a bonus, since that’s definitley not needed for our argument. Arguing that a Green Lantern ring, capable of various infinitley more complex actions (warping space/time, shielding against the conditions inside a Black Hole) isn’t capable of altering light’s wavelength is, well, illogical.
But, since you asked, here is him flat-out stating that he has scanned him, fully equipped, standing right in front of him: http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/...arStructure.jpg
Not to mention that, moments later, Superman was actually trapped inside that armor. (I wonder if he scanned it looking for a way out ? Tough one.)
But, like I said, it’s just a bonus.
You have a hard time grasping the complexity of what we’re doing, not only compared to what the ring’s capable of (much more), but even in relation to your own example (altering light’s wavelength =/= making a device capable of killing you instantly).
How could it not be possible to do this, when the scans explicitly show the ring doing it ? The only difference is that the rings redirected the energy without the user telling him to, in order to protect him, while we’ll tell it to do it.
This baseless and side-statement “doesn’t inspire great confidence” that you keep repeating both here and in the Superman instance is quite funny, though.
You’ve tried using a one-time PIS filled issue, with a plot-induced weakness to prove that MM, a shapeshifter with complete control over his body, capable of altering the chemical structure of his body and turning into bone or regenerate from goo/a hand, can be downed and once this one-time weakness has been dealt with in a logical manner complete with scans, you keep going. Why he hasn’t eliminated it ? I wonder, does it have something to do that this hasn’t been mentioned again, and thus the need of him doing this is non-existent ? You keep going with the “but iron, the iron!!” and fail to see the bigger picture, completely ignoring what MM can and has done.
You’ve shown me a random instance of him fighting Surfer and the latter missing him with a blast, you’ve purposley mislead people into thinking Quasar being anywhere near lightspeed in flight by scan-manipulating , which is irrelevant to combat speed on our level anyhow and now, you’re randomly spouting “I have shown scans! You have shown PIS!”. No, I have shown scans from different instances, directly contradicting him being anywhere on our level, and it is consistent with Quasar’s history. We’re already handling Genis power-sharing but, not only that, Genis is nowhere near the level of combat speed necessary to properly fight us either.
__________________
“Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom. The freedom to leave.”
Our team’s had this argument long before Charlotte mentioned it. Accusing us of bad manners is hypocritical since you don’t know what we’ve discussed. Furthermore you’re simplifying feats for your argument’s sake. “Onslaught’s stopped phasing” has no bearing on him stopping us for the simple fact that Martian Manhunter’s method is different from Kitty’s. Simple.
Meanwhile, we have nothing from you. Not even actually showing Onslaught stopping Kitty mid-phase, much less actually being capable of backing up the fact that if he did it to her, he must be able to do it to Martian Manhunter. Switching the burden of proof to the other side, since yours is unsupported by anything in the actual comics is only natural in your situation, so I don’t blame you.
Cropping a statement from our conclusive argument on why it has no relevance on us physically being capable of destroying your shield, and saying “nice try” would be cool, if we’d having a contest on who’s the sneakiest. We’re not. We’ve adressed Genis’ physicall durability awell as power-sharing. It can’t withstand us.
No, what I’m pointing out is that you have no basis for your argument. Switching the burden of proof on me won’t work since you’re the one who brought this evidence in front, and it’s your job to prove that Rachel was at the level of a GL ring, much less 10 or 30. Saying “Phoenix” and expecting the argument to be self-explaining, when anyone who knows the character should know otherwise, is faulty. Meanwhile, we have Quasar saying that she has the raw power of a star and that she’s capable of destroying the British Isles. In the same panel. I wonder which one is hyperbole ? Furthermore, one GL ring has closed-up Blackholes and contained Supernovas.
All he says is that he lets the power of the closest star flow through the Quantum Bands and as the power builds up, he releases it. That’s different from actually absorbing the star. That doesn’t work in the context of the scene or character, either way. He was only trying to get the attention of the Watchers/Stranger.
As I pointed out, it is made quite clear that the reason he’s doing so well is because they’re powered by the exact same thing he is and that they neutralize eachother because of that, effectivly rendering your “four herald-level characters cannot directly hurt him!” point, considering the context in which it takes place, null. He won by running and outsmarting them. A good feat, but irrelevant for this match awell.
I’m not exactly sure why you persist with this showing, except for taking space and making it seem like you have an argument. Which you don’t.
What you claimed was, and I quote:
Not only did you leave out the scan where it’s flat-out stated why Quasar has a better chance of absorbing it due to the nature of the quantum-power being more adaptive compared to the power cosmic, you’ve also interpreted the already misleading presentation to further twist the meaning of the scene in saying it shows Quasar’s energy manipulation > Surfer’s.
Scan manipulation is awesome.
Forgetting your argument again?
After another scan manipulation is pointed out, you’re backing out again ? How surprising.
In the scan we’ve posted, it’s flat-out stated that he’s too hungry not to deal with Johnny later. Furthermore, the fact that Johnny, like I pointed out, did the same thing in those conditions, renders the impressivness of it rather moot. Saying “Good for Johnny!” or “Yeah, but he like hungry all the time!!” isn’t an actual counter-argument, just in case I need to tell you. Which, apparently, I do.
We didn’t reply to those scans not only because they were unimpressive considering what you’re up against in this match compared to the powerlevel his opponents were, but also because we adressed the “energy absorbtion” later on in a separate post.
Quasar directly admitting that he can’t affect something that is outside the electromagnetic spectrum. Being useless against something capable of manipulatig sub-atomic particles, atomic decay or weak-force ? That seems oddly familiar.
In fact within the discussion the issue reffers to, and the one you’re trying to pass on as proof, it was made quite clear that Magneto was nothing more than Xavier’s subconscious given form. Nothing even aluded to it somehow being Magneto’s memories maniftested (?) or anything you’re trying to pass it on as: http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/...nsconscious.jpg
Magneto’s memories were later restored after astra healed him, further disaproving the fact that Xavier took them in. (why would he do that in the first place ?)
Since you can’t show that he has been able to hide from something even close to our tracking capabilities, you’re just going to.. repeat what you said, while saying that I didn’t counter anything? Hm. I wonder if that methods works for us too.
It works!
Not applicable to Onslaught as we've already pointed out. And it hasn't been proven to work on somebody with our capabilitie actively trying to track it down either.
But I guess if you say it again maybe, just maybe, it will work!
You mean besides the fact that his dimensional phasing isn’t the same one with the ones that the shields have defended themselves from ? I notice you’re still transferring every one of Magneto’s feats to Onslaught as if the latter has the experience/memories the former has awell which, sadly, even if they were valid, which they aren’t, still don’t represent counter-arguments meant to stop us.
Also, notice how we’ve posted scans for pretty much everything we’ve claimed ? A strange concept, I know.
If you’d have actually used feats from Onslaught instead of Magneto you could have possibly made a case. Unfortunatelly, feats of that kind for Onslaught are non-existent, and using Magneto only hurts your case, since claiming that he has lightspeed reaction time is, well..
Magneto having his consciousness leave the body and having it follow Captain Marvel magnetically alongside has zero to do with his actual combat speed. Him reacting to Nightcrawler teleporting from a location to another in an unspecified time frame along the magnetic lines, and on top of it sensing his location almost before he does, also has nothing to do with it. In fact, Magneto’s speed itself has absolutley nothing to do with Onslaught, since there are different bodies and consciousnesses.
I find it pretty strange, to say the least, to use this as proof of Magneto and thus Onslaught having lightspeed reaction time. Hm. Now that I think of it better I don’t think strange is the best word to describe it.
Reaching.
Yeah, that’s the one.
We’ve got a physically amped, blitzing Superman with 10 rings enhancing his already top durability wailing on him. On top of the various types of energy, like anti-matter that we’ll assault him with. He has proven that, despite him handling Juggernaut, he is not on a level where he cannot be physically beaten, and we’ve got just the right tools to do it.
The scans speak for themselves.
Forget reaching. You’re just desperate.
Staggering a bunch of heroes with an enhanced EMP (electromagnetic pulse) is certainly nowhere near what it takes to down us, considering we’ve got our durability enhanced not only by 10 ring, one of them being enough to shield rookies from Black Holes, but Superman/MM would most likely be able to tank it just find under normal circustanaces.
At that point in time has has also already absorbed Franklin’s power, which renders the feat null aswell, since it’s speculation to say it didn’t have an effect on the attack’s powerlevel, even if it was for the most part an EMP. Even if we take it for granted it, like we said, doesn’t have anything on us.
__________________
“Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom. The freedom to leave.”
The majority of tactics they were relying on in order to have a chance in this match have been rendered null, including power sharing, illusions, cloaking and shielding. What’s even more dramatic for their side is that, even if we take those into consideration, they still haven’t proven they are good enough to hide from, defend or counter us effectivly. We take them down hard, with tactics that they have no defenses or are specfifically weak against, from phasing, anti-matter to physicall assaults, all done at a speed our opponents can’t even percieve, much less react to. We’ve shown what we’re capable of, we’ve shown our opponent not being able to cope with it.
Furthermore, like we’ve already pointed out, they don’t really have the big picture of the battlefield. Obsesivly cloaking themselves and spreading illusions, while at the same time hoping to drain, manipulate our energy, shoot red sun blasts and others. Not only do neither of those tactics work, as we’ve proven, but they simply don’t have the time to do it. We’re far too fast and far too good equipped to take them down.
They can’t stop us. They can’t see us. They can’t counter us.
And it will be awesome.
__________________
“Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom. The freedom to leave.”
Last edited by Philosophía on Jan 12th, 2010 at 08:59 PM
First of all, i want to thank Philosophia. I've been having a hell of a time this week (work and personal problems), so it was nice that Philo could carry the torch when i either wasn't here or wasn't able. I'm going to start carryiing my weight in later rounds (if we do prevail), but for this one, he has my thanks.
Now, to erase the memory of such an awful chick-flick moment:
A handbook that has been contradicted by the comics (which i have already pointed out in regards to the differences between the men). So what, Parallax Hal and GL Hal are the same guy now, even though their powerset is roughly the same? C'mon man.
which pretty much neuters his cosmic awareness, as seeing attacks coming would be considered precognition and is therefore useless. right?
i'm afraid i need to clarify something, then. my comments were not intended to state that the actual cosmic awareness itself was somehow weakened. it's Genis/Photon's use of it that is in question. He simply can't access it the way Insane Genis could, and even when he could access it to any decent degree, he needed time and concentration, something that this match simply won't allow him to have. And EVEN THEN, the actual usefulness of said "awareness" is questionable, seeing as Genis really has VERY FEW IF ANY feats of using it effectively post Insanity.
It's like having an tricked out gaming pc one minute, and then having a 1996 gateway with windows 3.0 the next. should do the same job, but not nearly as well.
Just so the judges see this:
YOU'RE MAKING MY POINT FOR ME.
"Coven's original powers are unknown"
"It is unknown whether or not his alien physiology granted him any other powers or enhanced skills"
i mean, c'mon.
and as regards him having the full power of an insane captain marvel... so? you can't prove that insane genis' feats are applicable, and you can't even begin to state that onslaught and quasar are somehow = coven after marvel gave him his powers. sure, it's arguable, but it's not definitive, which is what you need to prove. coven himself doesn't have many feats, so you're relying on hearsay and a handbook, which comics contradict all the time.
Honestly, what did Phyla Vell do that was so impressive? She can fly. She can shoot energy. She has decent strength and some CA. So does any basic kryptonian (bar the CA obviously). also, Phyla Vell wasn't given her powers by Genis, so the point is moot.
Rogue? You're using a HOUSE OF M (which isn't canon) scan to prove that Rogue was somehow decent with his powers? C'mon, guys.
Again, you're leaving out the big, giant elephant in the room: Coven has no feats of actual complex energy manipulation. In case you want to reference the above one, go ahead, but it still doesn't mean shit when Coven himself, and i quote:
"It is unknown whether or not his alien physiology granted him any other powers or enhanced skills"
and that's perfectly fine. the only problem is that onslaught's shields won't stop guys that have TWO (yes, TWO) separate ways of going intangible. Well, except Hal, as he only has the one. One is more than enough, though.
Ah. Yeah. The problem with THAT, is, it's inconsistent with Johns' own words. For anyone who missed it the first time:
GL energy is not "just light" remember? You can argue that some light is enough light, but the FACT is, GL willpower energy is part of it's OWN SPECTRUM.
and just for show, here's examples of light manipulators being ineffective against Green Lanterns.
Problem is, yes, some writers have seen fit to show energy manipulators affecting Green Lanterns at times. Not anymore, though. Your one instance does nothing to contradict the mountain of evidence Johns has been giving us since Rebirth. This being the guy that basically rewrote GL mythology and powers, i'm inclined to take his word over that of Ron Marz, as much as i love the guy. Well, i really don't.
Besides, the majority breeds consistency. Your scan is inconsistent.
I'm going to keep this short and sweet as best i can so that if id and kandy want to reply, they can:
You can run, but we're faster.
You can hide, but we'll SEE YOU.
Judges might be wondering why Philo and I haven't been concentrating on defending our own characters as much as we have going after theirs. Well, the truth is, we simply don't feel the need to. it's not arrogance. We're simply confident. We have a very simple set up:
Have GL Rings. Charge GL Rings. Hit them hard, hit them fast, and leave them begging for mercy.
We know THEIR weaknesses:
(Genis sucks in physical combat (ktfo by Ronan. Beaten to death (yes, physically BEATEN TO DEATH) by Atlas. Trouble with the Hulk, etc. He relies on his own inconsistent use of the cosmic awareness. He's been trapped in a Sue Storm force-field by Super Skrull too (and btw, that's Surfer breaking him out, the same guy who's supposedly meant to eat his heart out), so a GL blast would incapable of stopping him? Please.
Quasar sucks against anti-matter. And physical combat.
And both are slow as hell. Us, though? Racinig the Flash. Crossing the universe. TAGGING the Flash. TAGGING Superman.
Onslaught? He can't stop us phasing. He can't stop us cracking his shell, and we can take whatever energy release he hits us with. He's going down).
while eliminating our own (Iron, Mental Attacks, Red Sun/Kryptonite).
We don't have to reach, because our plan is painfully simple, and yet INCREDIBLY EFFECTIVE. If you try to hide, we'll scan every spectrum. If you try to use shields, we'll phase through them. If you somehow magically try to drain our energy, we'll get physical. We have answers to EVERY strategy you might concoct. We're versatile and yet powerful at the same time. We adapt on the fly faster than you can.
That's why, when the smoke clears, we're still standing while they're not.
Also, i did have a chance to see Id's summary. I'm not going to address it. Honestly, i have to be in work soon so i don't have the time. And to be blunt? I honestly don't think he's said anything we haven't addressed already.
There was a lot more to consider than I'd anticipated in this match, so it took more time to read it over a few times and factor the key points to make sure I got this right. Here are some of the main factors that attributed to my decision:
-It's clear from the scans that Genis gave Coven the Power Cosmic. It's stated explicitly by Rick Jones and Genis Vell on panel. Granted, Coven had an alien physiology and undisclosed abilities, but on panel he himself attributes his increased durability and ability to survive numerous execution attempts to his alien physiology, not the abilities that Genis granted him with the PC. Saying that, nothing Coven did would make me believe he was as proficient as Genis, but it clearly gave him a large amp of PC abilities, and at one point he even took on the appearance of Genis when he stole more power.
-I wasn't convinced via the argument and evidence presented that Superman and Martian Manhunter would have enough proficiency with a power ring to implement the plan and create the results PR and Philo were gunning for without any proper guidance by Hal. Nothing was presented to support J'onn's proficiency save a couple scans of his overcoming adversities, and in the case of Superman it's a couple scans of him floating/flying with a ring when he was powerless, and then experiencing a simulated reality in which he went to Oa rather than Earth. None of this gave me confidence that he'd be able to create a construct of the Armor which Zod used to filter sunlight, or anything else complex, without the aid of Hal. If you'd just had Hal help them, which I'm VERY surprised you didn't, you could have avoided any doubts, but instead you guys were steadfast in your belief that semi-related scans would provide all the proof necessary.
-I am of the belief that PR and Philo have a speed advantage, however, given that this isn't an in comic battle and is a forum battle, Quasar wouldn't be hindered by flying slowly simply for fear of atmospheric damage. The speed edge still goes to PR and Philo.
-I wasn't convinced that Genis and Quasar would not be able to drain the GL construct. Reading that scan being volleyed back and forth in it's entirety, it states that the Lantern Powers are raw emotions converted into an "emotional" electromagnetic spectrum, i.e., all emotions from sentient beings are converted into an EM spectrum for lanterns to utilize:
Not that Green Lantern power is NOT EM, but that it has a unique source (emotions).
-I wasn't convinced that J'onn could remove the iron from his blood from the evidence that was presented (his regenerating an organ, creating an exoskeleton, and regenerating from a hand). If you'd shown him turning himself completely inorganic and still operating as normal (which I'm pretty sure there is likely a scan of, but wasn't presented in the match for our consideration) you could have shut this down out the gate. As it stands, I wasn't convinced.
-Though Onslaught has both Xavier and Magneto's powers (seemingly amplified to a great extent), using Magneto's feats is not a very good idea. Neither is using the feats and experiences of other Lanterns for Supes and J'onn. I can appreciate what you guys are trying to establish (same powers = same options), but I have to remain consistent, and in a previous match when the Thor = Beta Ray Bill argument was presented it was dismissed, and it's dismissed here as well. That said, Onlsaught manhandled Juggernaut like a kid does a G.I. Joe. His own feats aren't exactly remedial, and I don't think Superman would be able to so simply manhandle Onslaught in any manner.
-The energy lattice grid was a nice touch and wasn't ever really accounted for by PR & Philo. Id and Kandy would always be aware of where PR and Philo were, even with the speed advantage. On the flipside, while PR and Philo do have Supes' vaunted senses, I'm not sure he'd be able to see through the space fold cloaking of Photon for their team to pinpoint where to attack. I also don't think the illusions would fool the PR/Philo team for very long either.
-Manhunter would more than likely be able to phase through id/Kandy's defenses and assault them. I wasn't, however, convinced they would be found given the space fold cloaking.
In the end, it came down to my confidence that id/Kandy would be able to siphon the energies of PR/Philo's team while remaining undetected, then take out the weakened team.
My vote: id/Kandy
As for the point system allotments:
Originality:
PR/Philo 1/5
id/Kandy 2/5
Share powers, shields up, amp, repeat. There's been a lot of vanilla plans thus far. id/kandy get a higher mark for the lattice grid and hearing devices to have complete awareness of the battlefield (nice touches), but beyond that it was more of the same. Need more creativity.
Effectiveness:
PR/Philo 2/5
id/Kandy 4/5
PR/Philo shot themselves in the foot by not solidifying their foundation and relying too much on general understandings than evidence. Yeah, Superman could be the greatest GL with training and experience, he's already greater than most GLs as a stand alone Kryptonian, but just handing him 10 rings with no guidance doesn't make Super Saiyan Sodam Yat 2 withut anything to base it on. Too much was left up to a seeming assumption that judges would be on the same page rather than concretely establishing the point. As for id/kandy, they kept it relatively simple: we have energy manipulators and shielding, we're gonna raise shields and drain your energy. The Magneto-esque cloaking was tossed out the window, but Photon made up for it. Always good to have contingency plans.
Debating Skills:
PR/Philo 5/10
id/Kandy 6/10
The debating was furious, particularly in the end with PR and Philo dropping a large closing argument, but nothing game changing was presented in my opinion. id/Kandy's plan was solid and effective.
Batdude's Vote! (Yes, I'm presumptuous enough to put it in big font.)
First of all, I'd like to congratulate both teams on a good tourney performance. Both did an excellent job. It took me awhile to come to a decision here, but after reading through it a few times, and after careful consideration, I've decided to cast my vote for...
Pr/Philosophia
Imo, Pr and Philo did a better job at showcasing their team's effectiveness in this scenario. It was quite apparent that they were the one's on the offensive throughout the duration of this match, and had Id/KK on the ropes trying to defend their position.
I wasn't exactly buying the idea that Magneto's feats were somehow interchangeable with Onslaught's. Id/KK were putting quite a bit of faith into that particular point in this battle, which I felt hurt them. Also, I wasn't convinced Onslaught's shields would do anything in order to keep J'onn at bay.
J'onn has complete molecular control over his alien physiology. It's been stated many times, and shown many times. He has transformed himself into a wide variety of substances before, so to assume that the iron in the blood trick would still work when they had MM deliberately take it out is, quite frankly, ridiculous. This is just one example, but Id/KK didn't exactly use foolproof tactics when dealing with the other team's characters. Imo, they relied too heavily on easily counterable points.
Also, the GL rings require willpower and imagination... that's pretty much it. As long as one has the willpower, and can think of what he wants to do, he can do it. Philo did a good job of showcasing Superman's willpower, and proving that he is indeed good enough to create what they want him to create with it. J'onn, on the other hand, I wasn't actually convinced that he could really use a GL ring effectively, so I disregarded it. However, in the grand scheme of things, I don't think it really mattered.
What it comes down to, for me at least, is effectiveness. I don't think that Id/KK could have achieved all that they wished to while simultaneously getting speedblitzed by J'onn and Superman. Pr/Philo did a good job of showing that Id and KK's team aren't on their team's level of speed and reaction times.
So, I broke it down like this...
Originality
Pr/Philo: 2/5
Id/KK: 2/5
Effectiveness
Pr/Philo: 4/5
Id/KK: 2/5
Debating
Pr/Philo: 7/10
Id/KK: 5/10
Once again, good job to both teams. This was a really hard decision.
__________________ Poppa's comin home to sling some dick.
I felt that at the outset, Pr/Philo's (hereon referredd as PP) team was at a disadvantage. This was a matchup of brute force vs energy manipulators. They have two characters (superman, MM) with known exploitable weaknesses. I was curious to see how they would build against it.
Therein lies the crux of the match for me. It seems ultimately, PP's success or failure depended largely on the viability of Hal being able to create 29 GL rings and then give them to his partners. Now, since the brunt of their success depended on this happening, I was disappointed they didn't go more in depth to prove this to be even possible, let alone in a 5 minute period. The scan offered itself said that it could occur only in times of great need. I wasn't convinced Hal could just create 29 rings. Also, Hal saying superman 'would' make a great lantern doesn't mean that in 5 min, Superman could be a great lantern. The evidence is very tenuous and requires a leap of faith based on a statement that I don't hold too much weight in.
That for me sealed the fate of team PP. I think PP proved that MM could bypass the shields but that won't win them a victory. I was more persuaded by Id/Kandy (IK) idea of their team exploiting the easily exploitable weaknesses of PP.
I found Id's conclusion that this was a bad matchup for PP quite accurate. Had team PP been able to substantiate better Hal being able to create 29 rings in five minutes, it would've been a much harder decision. My vote is for: Id/Kandy.
Originality
Pr/Philo: 3/5 - I thought it was quite creative their plan of how each character would use the rings. Unfortunately, I don't think they proved the viability of the strategy.
Id/KK: 2.5/5 - very comprehensive plan...their prep was standard but covered all bases.
Effectiveness
Pr/Philo: 2/5 - I didn't buy the main part of their plan (ring creation)...and unfortunately their entire plan depended on that aspect. Their plan did not seem tailored to their opponent and was more of a general brute force strategy.
Id/KK: 4/5 - I thought they did a good job of covering all bases and prepping specifically to exploit their opponents weaknesses.
Debating
Pr/Philo: 5/10 - good debating in general...but failed to convince me of an important part of their plan was viable. and due to issues IRL, the posts were sporadic and then came too late in the end with a post blitz.
Id/KK: 7/10 - effective. versatile. nuff said.
Overall winner: Id/Kandy
Total Score:
Id/Kandy: 13.5/20
Pr/Philo: 10/20
Good job to all participants!
__________________
Defacto Leader of the KMC VS Resistance Movement
Last edited by Starscream M on Jan 17th, 2010 at 01:30 AM
Gender: Male Location: I'm not giving my name to a machine
Hmm... I didn't think these things would be so tough. I did agree that Pr/Philos team had the physical edge but id/King did a good job of minimizing that disadvantage. I also commend them on their use of the tournament rules to eliminate Genis' temporal awareness handicap.
I wasn't completely sold on Magneto feats being used for Onslaught. A lot of Magneto's greatness does come from his knowledge and experience. Nor was I sold on Martian Manhunter GLin' it up that well in 5 minutes, though on paper he does seem like a good candidate. Superman's evidence was a bit more compelling though. Still, I thought that id/King's plan worked better to counter Pr/Philos' attack and buy them enough time to do what they want to accomplish.
I really can't rank this because this is really the only tournament debate I've ever read here, but my vote goes to id/King. Good dishes, chefs.
__________________ Originally posted by -Pr- a great big penis.
Congratulations Kandy and ID, well fought battle from both teams. Though I'm left with a feeling that both held back a bit, perhaps saving their best stuff for later battles.
We certainly have more in store for later... I was hoping to be able to just trample over Pr/Philo, but it was way harder than I was expecting, but now we've seen everyone fight, so now I can more reliably gauge other teams and react accordingly.
Anyway, grats to both teams. I've been casually following the matches I'm not judging, though not reading them in depth. Seemed like a well-fought matchup. Deserving, potentially dangerous teams always fall early in non-round-robin formats.
KMC Community Forums
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Jan 12th, 2010 08:13 PM
The only difference is that the rings redirected the energy without the user telling him to, in order to protect him, while we’ll tell it to do it. 
