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Well i disagree with some of this..but respect your position.....i think that controling a reality..even if its universal..and lets add all the other abilities....will dominate the CA..it does not have to effect the ca its self..it effects the laws of the universe or rather the setting for the match... even if its reach is multiversal and or its premise..to bring up its hyper story...means nothing here in a forum match i.m.o..but thats why the boards are interesting to me....i like to se other theories..even if i dont agree.
And i will say this..after going thru all this( and i believed before this thread)....i will say the IG is universal.....to me the IG saga makes this clear....and there are so many ways a writer can flat out tell us its multiversal..and i dont think it did....but i am also of the like mind that being multiversal does not automatically make a victory over universal..in base terms..but that is me.
I agree with your premise about just because something ahs ONE great multiversal feat.. doesn't make it superior to something only universal. This is one of the points I've been arguing the whole time. One greater feat in one area isnt a clearly defined definition of overall superiority. So, I don’t disagree with you starlock. However, I'm curious about how you can say it was clear it was only universal, with the things that have been pointed out. Examples…
1. Thanos was only concerned with taking over and becoming GOD of the 616 Universe. He wasn't occupied with trying any and all feats it could try. Just because Thanos has never been shown lifting up a airplane do we presume he can't just because he was only concerned about lifting a car in the arc?
2. Magus merged two separate universe while standing in a complete separate universe. That is 3 universes at play in one feat. That at the very minimum is multi-universal not just universal.
3. Comments like… Im am God of this universe and all universeS. Plural. Some would love to skew that statement and make it pocket dimensions. Yet there is ZERO proof of that. This statement makes sense because have the IG allows you to travel to whatever universe you choose and become God of that universe.
4. Defeating Eternity could have meant a multiversal impact. Some have tried to argue that in the Abraxas arc is was Multi-Eternity yet in Eternity's own BIO it makes it clear it was the SAME eternity in both situations. So,if some claim it was "multi-eternity" in Abraxas.. Marvel makes it clear it was the same Eternity in the IG saga. Thus defeating multi-Eternity would be a multiversal feat would it not? To expand on that and why specifically spelling out multiversal isn't necessary all the time. Which is a point the opposite side can't get around.. When Thanos has the HOTI.. it never even one said universeS as it did with the IG. It never showed manipulation of multiple universeS like the IG did. Only one Eternity and abstracts yet again. No multiple ones like in the Abraxas arc. Yet we don’t consider the heart just universal. Why you say…. because it wtfpwnd a being that is omniversal that holds two megaverses in his hands. So thus the heart it clearly multiversal and beyond. Words like multiversal aren't necessary in all situations to prove something is multiversal as "the end" and others examples show us.
5. The IG comes from the IB.. who as we know gave ALL his power into the gems. Not just some but all. Now we all the IB was creater of the omniverse. So thus how on earth could the IG just be universal? Granted it may take some time to full harness the powers of the iG and get used to them. Clearly, nobody has been afforded such time to do so and thus limitations in not being fully acclimated exist. Yet that doesn't take away from the inherent power they posses.
6. The IG with but a thought manipulated the energies of the UN…. the all powerful multiversal energies of the UN with but a thought. For God's sake… it says… the word Ultimate has little meaning in this encounter. If you can manipulate multiveral power and use said power how can you not then be multiversal by default. ODG likes to use the black alice example and it’s a great one. If BA can throw around multiversal attacks and power because it can control the power/energy of the spectre than how can BA not exert multiversal power. True on its own BA alice couldn't.. have her powerset is that she has the capacity to weild such immense power and when doing so become multiversal.
All of the above.. taken one by one.. sure maybe you couldn't come to the conclusion its multiversal…. However, taking them all into account… it is at the very minimum multi-universal and imo shows it could also very easily be multiversal.
Lastly, and again, as I've pointed out… One v One encounters count for more than ONE great feat in ONE area. If the colts score the most points in a game ever in the AFC Championship game.. That is one great feat.. that could be considered the greatest playoff performance of all time. Yet if they get WTF pwned in the superbowl.. who is really the better team i.e. more powerful.. The team with the record or the team that wtf pwned the team with said record. ODG likes to base superiority on one feat in one area.. Sorry that is horribly illogical and unsound. Just because Odin has shaken the multiverse in battle and a celestial hasn't.. doesn't make Odin more powerful because we've seen a Celestial wtf pwn an amped Odin in battle. Just because superman has strength feats greater than Thanos… "seemingly" superiority in one area.. doesn't mean Superman is superior in the least.
^ Starlock can defend his own opinions, but on this: Just based on your "One v One encounters count for more" rationale, than you must conclude: Maelstrom > Thanos w/ IG. But because we both disagree with that conclusion, then the rationale must be flawed. It's flawed because we both accept, that in isolation, Thanos w/ IG has far greater feats than Maelstrom does.
And that's exactly the situation we have when trying to apply Magus v Quasar to UN > IG. In isolation, the UN has far greater feats than the IG does. Not applying the rationale equally is a double-standard. As for the "one great feat in one area" idea... pigeon-holing the instant destruction/recreation/manipulation of the multiverse as "one great feat in one area" is hardly fair or accurate. That's essentially total control over the multiverse as compared to total control of the 616 universe.
ODG ODG ODG... Again I'm always having to correct your fallacies and illogical thinking...
Again ODG… just because somebody doesn't defeat somebody weaker doesn't make him any less powerful or not the stronger of the two. You can't get around the examples I use because as usual they blow your theory out of the water… If Galactus can't defeat the FF4 does that mean they are more powerful than him? Nah. If Superman can't defeat batman… doesn't that make Batman superior to superman in a fight? nah. When Eternity has lost to people much lower does that mean they are superior to Eternity? nah. Just because you don't defeat somebody doesn't make you not superior. What's worse I'm sure you consider Oblivion and Eternity to be pretty close in power correct? So we see Thanos wtf pwn Eternity in one move. Yet you want us to believe that under estimating and not knowing who Maelstrom was and thus not killing him proves he wasn't stronger? Come on that is terrible logic. When Thanos knew who he was facing and facing somebody on par or stronger he pwnd him with ease.
Furthermore, the UN has showed limitations and specifically based on its user. It has to have a operator thus it has shown limitations. It got WTF pwned by the IG user with ease. It failed to kill tyrant in one shot.. there are more examples. So aren't there always examples of limitations of anything or anyone.. is this true for pretty much all people in comics.. at one point or another they will show limitations and low points?
Also, answer this question… Do you believe that anybody has ever had enough time to completely tap all the gems power and use them to their fullest potential? it seems very logically this process could take a long time to accomplish to totally and fully acclimate oneself with all the gems at the same time and know how to use all of their power together. Seems very logical. Yet, that has happened and yet you still try and prove how limited it is. We have gems that ARE the power of the IB.. a being that created the omniverse. Clearly, a God like being. Hmmm IG make you God… However, isn't it perfectly plausible that it might take some time to fully harness said power? Isn't it possible that once you could and have done that… you very well could easily perform multiversal tasks and become God of this universe and all universeS just as it says on panel?
Last edited by KuRuPT Thanosi on Jan 15th, 2010 at 06:57 PM
You're confusing yourself terribly. That underlined part is exactly why Quasar v. Magus is worth squat. We know the UN is more powerful in isolation because it achieved an exponentially far greater feat. The only thing that IG-supporters have continually thrown up as a red herring, is that it "pwned" the UN in combat. Which you state in black and white, is meaningless when it comes to power. You may think you're not applying a double-standard, but you clearly are. And you're flip-flopping back and forth when it suits you.
no flip flopping at all. I love how you didn't address the rest of my post which once again highlights your fallacies and illogical comparisons. My examples go directly to your thinking and thus you don't address them. Difference is yes we believe IG to be superior to maelstrom based on many things..some of which I've named. Plus the IG didn't LOSE to maelstrom he just underestimated him and didn't defeat hiim right away. Cool big deal. Difference here is we have two very powerful weapons... one call God the other called ultimate... one with the power of the IB all in them.. the other can do things on a multiversal grand scale. To seemingly big time fish fighting and one wtfpwning the other with ease. Maelstrom... didn't beat the IG at all as the IG beat the UN with but a thought. It just couldn't defeat him right away. Huge huge difference. Again though its funny how you didn't address the rest of my post lol.
^ Not flip-flopping? This means that Magus v Quasar should determine whether IG is greater than UN.
When equally applied, Maelstrom v Thanos should determine whether Maelstrom is greater than UN.
But then... This means that Maelstrom v Thanos should not determine whether Maelstrom is greater than UN.
When equally applied, Magus v Quasar should not determine whether IG is greater than UN.
You can't have it both ways. And we both know that the only inarguable conclusion we both have is this: Maelstrom is not greater than Thanos w/ IG. Thus one v one encounters do not determine superiority in power at all. So scrap Magus v Quasar. What we're left with then, is the second rationale and pure feats. And UN is exponentially greater.
False again. Maelstrom didn't DEFEAT Thanos with the IG.. not even close... Thanos underestimated him and didn't know who he was... not acclamated imo. Point is, he just couldn't defeat him right away... IG vs UN... wtfpwnd with but a thought. Horrible different.
^ Semantics. Maelstrom was utterly immune to Thanos w/ IG. In either case, when you make excuses for how Thanos underestimated Maelstrom and Thanos wasn't acclimated to the IG's power...
... then applied equally, you should accept that Quasar underestimated Magus w/ IG and Quasar (obviously) wasn't acclimated to the UN's power.
But we both know that you don't apply it equally. This is your double-standard, not mine.
again ODG answer me this... Is this even possible in your mind? I mean obviously its possible.. you may not believe it probable but its certainly possible right?
Also, answer this question… Do you believe that anybody has ever had enough time to completely tap all the gems power and use them to their fullest potential? it seems very logically this process could take a long time to accomplish to totally and fully acclimate oneself with all the gems at the same time and know how to use all of their power together. Seems very logical. Yet, that has happened and yet you still try and prove how limited it is. We have gems that ARE the power of the IB.. a being that created the omniverse. Clearly, a God like being. Hmmm IG make you God… However, isn't it perfectly plausible that it might take some time to fully harness said power? Isn't it possible that once you could and have done that… you very well could easily perform multiversal tasks and become God of this universe and all universeS just as it says on panel?
ummm well we've seen how individual gems aren't even tapped by many different people though. We've seen its failures in people not being able to use their full powers way more often than not. I don't believe it grants omniscience right away because we have examples showing otherwise.I believe it has to as we've seen take some time to get used to their powers and certainly time to tap ALL of the powers of each gem individually and combinded. That seems logical and reasonable that it would take someone not God like to fully grasps God like powers. Its possible at least imo.
^ And this is the reason you present, as excusing all of the "supposed" failures/limitations that IG users have demonstrated. And thus, it blunts whatever supposed inferiority of the IG you could glean from such episodes...
... and yet, you don't find the UN's inherent danger and difficulty to excuse Quasar's failure/limitations. Despite the UN being extraordinarily dangerous to its own wielder explicitly because it is so hard to handle, that doesn't blunt whatever supposed inferiority of the UN you could glean from Magus v Quasar?
Double-standard. I don't know what your question is.
Galan007 has adequately answered the first underlined question. And starlock has adequately answered the second underlined question, i.e., the Infinity Sagas had more than adequate opportunity to make it clear that it involved the entire multiverse or multiversal superiority. But it didn't. One throw-away line in a single issue of a Silver Surfer tie-in is worth as much as that one throw-away line where Magus was taking over only the Milky Way Galaxy. In other words, it's worth spit.
I'm asking you... is that even possible? Could that be possible? I already addressed Galan response. The gems have a well documented past of needing to acclimate to them and fully get harness them. In fact, we haven't even seem that ever really happen on panel. We've seen more people struggling or not even accessing a little of their power let alone all of it. So, clearly it takes some time to get to and figure out each gem.. let alone all gems. Being God and using your powers are a lot easier than not being close to God and getting access to God like powers you need to master. So again ODG is that even possible that one could assume they haven't been fully utilized yet and if they were.. they could be multiversal.. after all the power of a beyond multiversal being is housed in them . Not some but ALL of his power. So, you might think this is probable or likely but is it POSSIBLE ODG?
^ I don't know what you mean by "is that even possible?" You're referring to an old question and your posts are riddled with questions (several of which I answered with pointed rebuttals that currently remain undisputed). But you seem to be referring to the question that Galan007 already answered. If so, then refer to his response.
Otherwise, whether acclimation to an artifact is an excuse for what appears to be limits to an artifact's power, then I already answered that question: by posing to you whether or not acclimation to the highly dangerous/user-unfriendly UN is a legitimate excuse for what appeared to be a limit to the UN's power.
(and this is even ignoring the inherent "handgun > rocket launcher" flaw in that to begin with).
Trust me, very few if any of your points are undisputed. In fact, I've refutted most of your illogical comparisons and examples time after time with other examples. If addressed fallacy after fallacy and point out why they are such, with example after example. So while you can claim to have undisputed facts, that hardly is even close to the truth.
Simple question AGAIN..... We know that the IB (God like power and creator of the Omniverse) gave ALL his power to the gems. Not some but ALL. We know and it's well documented on panel that most people haven't come remotely close to accessing all of one gems power let alone all of the combinded and mastery of such. In fact, we've seen many people not even know how to access it. As I pointed out.. being God already and using said powers for a sustained period of time is easier than not even being close to God and having God like powers to access. Huge Huge difference. So my question is very simple... I'm not asking whether it makes up for limitation or an excuse for anything. I'm asking if its possible that nobody has ever fully accessed all the gems combined and got fully acclimated to ALL of the gems combinded "God" like power. That is certainly possible and actually probable because we've never seen that happen or stated. However, if we can agree its at least possible that has never happened... isn't it also possible that thus it could grant the user a multiversal power if such full acclimation took place. I'm only asking if that is even a possible thing. I think the answer is quite clear.. It clearly is possible. You saying its possible doesn't mean you think its probable or that you feel it would make up for said limitations. I'm only concerned with seeing you admit that full acclimation has never occured... the gems contain a verfified on panel God like multiversal power.. and thus it might possibly grant the user a mutiversal power if someone could fully harness them. Obviously this is possible but I want to either see you admit to this or skate around it and make yourself look foolish. To say that isn't even possible would be rather funny indeed.
^ Using the word "refuted" suggests you've remedied the faults that have been pointed out in your own arguments. Your double-standards have not been remedied. And there are still two indisputable facts separate and apart from everything we're arguing about: UN instantly destroyed/recreated/manipulated multiverse, and the 616 IG took over the single 616 universe.
The answer then is no. It's not possible. Just off the bat, if what you theorize is true, the Infinity Gems of alternate realities would be powerless and/or superfluous. And pretending that is true would be even funnier indeed. Possessing all Infinity Gems across the Multiverse would grant you the type of multiversal power/control you're suggesting.
Furthermore, your attenuated speculation about what it could "possibly" be because maybe we haven't seen its limits... would only get you so far. Even if everyone, including I, were to grant it to you. Why? Because then, in that same spirit, we could justify another attenuated speculation that the UN's origins with Galactus, a pre-Big Bang entity, and as a proven artifact of total multiversal control, "possibly" has not shown its limits yet either and might indeed be capable of nullifying the omniverse, LT and TOAA (beyond the Infintiy Being)... and then recreating them all.
This exercise you're engaging in now and which would justify others engaging in it for the UN? That's called a no-limit fallacy. And it's about as unreasonable as your original negative proof fallacy (among others).
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Jan 15th, 2010 06:05 PM
