If this is another way of saying Black Panther is more agile than Wolverine, then your terminology is hindering your case. The word skill has certain connotations, especially in a thread about martial arts prowess and until reading the rest of your post I wasn't even aware that is what you were talking about.
If you were arguing that Black Panther was more agile, I would have agreed with you, but what you said is:
"Why are you ignoring the other example? BP was evading Wolverine and he wasn't even taking the fight as serioulsy as wolverine. Taking that into consideration it probably means BP is faster."
Same thing I said last time:
"I think you are retroactively attributing the metal/physical state of Daredevil at the end of that story arc with Daredevil at the beginning of the arc. It was the accumulative effects of Daredevil's trip to Mephistos' realm, along with his beating in Streets of Poison, and Captain America's speech about America in Daredevil 283 that led to Matt's emotional / physical break down in Daredevil 284, and not any single event. During his fight with Cap, Matt was still fine more or less."
It wasn't an explanation of why he lost to Cap, it was foreshadowing the events about to transpire in the next Daredevil story arc.
You are taking the mental/physical state of Daredevil at the end of the arch and retroactively applying it to him at the beginning... even though the events in the middle of that arc were a large part of why he was where he was at the end. Daredevil was fine at the beginning of that arc, he said he timing was off a fraction of a second, but that's it - the rest didn't happen until after his fight with Cap. Like I said, accumulative effects.
Also, Cap was injured by Bullseye in the previous issue, and was barely able to put any weight on his leg - on top of being drugged. So he wasn't 100% either and Daredevil still got tooled
DD has trouble predicting Cap's moves because of the effects of the super soldier serum - It's like Batgirl and Deathstroke. Him not being able to predict Crossbones moves did seem odd, but he can't predict Lady Bullseye either. Some characters are just slight above his level to read, I guess.
He wasn't mind controlled but he was off his rocker. I wouldn't have referenced it if it was an isolated incident, but has it stands it is more or less inline with the rest of their encounters.
I'm really not sure why this concept is so freaking hard to grasp. I'm not saying "Black Panther can't be top tier because he has enhanced states," I'm saying he can't be top tier because he has enhanced stats and can't beat street level MAs who don't. He is stronger, faster and more durable than Matt and wears an armored suit, and he can't beat beat him. They have stalemated every time they have fought. Despite all his advantages Black Panther stalemates Daredevil, and there are logical implications to that. If Black Panther can't beat Daredevil in a fight despite holding virtually every advantage then it stands to reason that Daredevil is notably more skilled.
Wolverine has enhanced stats but he also has legitimate wins over street level MAs that Panther just doesn't have. Wolverine has beaten Shang-Chi in a couple of panels. He's beaten Daredevil in a couple of panels. He's beaten Moon Knight in a couple of panels. He's beaten Raza Longknife (who has beaten Black Knight) in couple of panels. He's beaten Shatterstar in a couple of panels. He's beaten Lady Deathstrike in a couple of panels.
I largely assume that Kree / Shiar / Skrull have the same pressure points and anatomy as humans.
__________________
Play League of Legends for free and reference me - GentlemanZombie - when you join
Not always vibranium, but he did say he that his suit was body armor in one of his earlier Avengers appearances. He said something like "If it wasn't for my armor, that blow would have ended it!"
I'll see if I can find it latter today.
__________________
Play League of Legends for free and reference me - GentlemanZombie - when you join
Yeah and batmans said the same shit as well. Lets bump him down a tier. Don't bother finding it you are ridiculous. Its just incredible how you can just remember stuff and use it for your own agenda.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
And I think I've been pretty vocal on my opinion of Batman's fighting skills and his relative placement on a list of martial artists.
I remember it all. I remember Panther using a tree as a battering ram. I remember him pushing a massive boulder the size of Ymir over a cliff. I remember him over powering lions and a polar bears. I remember Gilgamesh saying he'd never seen anyone but an Eternal move as fast as Panther. I remember him easily beating half a dozen of Wakanda's best warriors before he even ate the heart shaped herb. I remember that his eye sight is even better than Visions. I just don't see how someone who knows what Black Panther is physically capable off can argue that he is a top tier fighter when in spite of all his advantages he has been unable to beat Daredevil.
__________________
Play League of Legends for free and reference me - GentlemanZombie - when you join
I guess you think you're smart by taking what I said out of context. The point is that they are both enhanced in order for BP to have an edge he has has to train. Im arguing in terms of h2h skill hes better in the agility department.
No he was not he missed a freaking flagpole. Does that sound to you like he was normal?
This pretty much clears it up. DD specifically mentions that hes not 100% and refers to the incident in the demonic dimension.
Not only was he not 100 he implies that hes significantly less skilled.
His leg was fine that happened the day before. He was drugged but that didn't weaken him when he fought DD.
Except hes never had problems reading Caps moves before. It could be damn well be argued that since he references an arc were his radar sense was playing up thats why he couldn't read it. He also said that he couldn't read Crossbones either. Crossbones is NOT peak human.
It doesn't matter. Its still double standards he wasn't in his right state of mind and just like mindcontrol it can be argued he wasn't 100%
Because its crap. Captain America wasn't able to get an advantage over DD when he wasn't in his right state of mind lets bump him down.
Moon Knight isn't even top tier. Hes also been taken out by DD, and DD held his own against Wolverine and a group of hand ninjas. Hes also been beaten by Punisher.
No doubt you're going to use your self-serving logic to explain why these feats are not valid.
Are you shitting me??????!!!! Kree and Shair could pass for human. Are you serioulsy ****ing telling me that a green skineed alien with pointy ears and a funny chin that has the ability to shapeshift anatomy isn't going to vary significantly from a humans?
Does the fact that he used in a combat against a super skrull count for anything? I giuess were going to assume it was useless canon fodder despite the fact lots of them have been shown to be formidable.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Last edited by Deadline on Jun 13th, 2010 at 08:55 PM
Cap is peak human and his suit is so strong that its withstood a high caliber machine gun. Its incredible alot of those feats Cap could have done as well. None of that means **** all.
Cap hasn't beaten DD either.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Eh, We have Spike being able to identify Illyria's fighting styles and naming them simply from sparring, and in the comics a completely human Angel has been kicking aroung owning demons, Spike and a vampire Gunn through skill and awesomeness alone.
Hell, the whole shebang about the Vamps is that they're nowhere near as strong as slayers, but Spike and Angel still give them hell through sheer skill and experience.
Knowing fighting styles and being able to fight people stronger than you is hardly enough for tier-two IMO, though.
DC/Marvel martial artists in the upper tiers are seriously unrealistic in what they can pull off. Even tier 3s can take out 10x their number of trained fighters on a good day and fairly often fight metas.
Gunn fills all those requirements for tier 3 even when he's a normal human, and Angel managed to beat him while he was amped, and Angel was depowered. Connor and Spike have both acknowledged that Angel is pretty much the baddest mother in the buffyverse when push comes to shove.
Spike may deserve to be at the very pinnacle of tier 3, but Angel is definetly second tier IMO.
not sure why everyone is still arguing, place a vote,
many of the characters in the top tier win for their extra abilities and such, not sure why BP having extra abilities calls him into question, especially when the other contender for the fight doesn't have as many feats as him, and has an outright mutant ability she uses to enhance herself.
I'd like to ask what has psylocke done to deserve it more than t'challa?
And Superman wouldn't be able to do the same. Why? Not because he isn't any less fit than Thor (who was completely rendered human), but because he wouldn't be able to keep up with Cap/Batman with his amateurish fighting skills and ability to hold his own in a firefight. Cap had to be saved by Thor early on if you hadn't read the scans (or my post pointing it out). So harping on about how Cap supported Thor later is a poor deflection on your part. I find being able to handle yourself in a firefight without arms to be more impressive than landing pressure points on schnooks who completely underestimate you. That includes schnook master martial artists who job to Superman.
That "massive amount of experience" puts him on par with any average Asgardians/Olympians... no wait... it wouldn't even do that because those guys have been fighting in wars for several thousands of years. And Thor and Ares are hardly "average Asgardian/Olympians. They're the best fighters among those pantheons. And you're comparing someone who can use pressure points on schnooks or jobbers but clearly can't keep up in a standard street-fight firefight melee with people like Thor, Doom and Ares? Seriously? All of this has already been rebutted above.
KMC Community Forums
Jun 13th, 2010 07:16 PM
