I've noticed that BJJ purists tend to have poor take downs and TD defense. At my club, I usually got(haven't been in a while) double legs fairly easily on them. They don't mind being on their backs though.
We had some wrestlers come in one day and it was an entirely different story. I don't think I ever landed a single take down on them.
Of course, I'm talking just about purists here.
Last edited by StyleTime on Apr 15th, 2011 at 05:37 PM
It's completely relevant. TD defense wasn't really necessary, because George had no TD skills to begin with. He kept reaching because he doesn't know how to shoot.
And "mixed martial artist" is simply the term for combatants in the sport, whether their background is "mixed" or not. Frankly, I prefer "cagefighter", because "mixed martial artist" can be misleading. Siver's base is Taekwondo, and it served him well. George's knowledge of BJJ might as well have been nonexistant during that fight.
You can't seriously compare a highschool wrestler to a professional fighter. A HS state champ might stand somewhat of a fighting chance, but not the majority of HS wrestlers. College and Olympic wrestlers even more so (obviously).
And it wouldn't be a "lucky" blow; it would be a precision knock-out blow. I mean, we ARE talking about the upper echelons of the boxing world, not some pee-wee Golden Gloves champ.
Exactly. During the Sotiropoulis/Siver fight, Rogen even pointed out that unlike All-American wrestlers, BJJ fighters tend to lack good TD skills. They're in their element once they're on the ground, but actually getting there is the problem.
No, it isn't relevant at all. It wasn't Siver's taekwondo skills that helped him avoid the take downs from Sotiropoulos. So let's stop pretending like it was, k?
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It served him well because he was able to keep the fight standing. And the reason he was able to keep the fight standing had absolutely nothing to do with his taekwondo.
Pretty simple, really.
Pacquiao and Mayweather aren't professional fighters. They're professional boxers. They train a specific way, and under specific circumstances. They don't train for a wrestler who's poised to take them to the ground, and to act like they'd smoke one is just ridiculous. It's not like the wrestler would stand there and trade with them (unless he's retarded). He'd shoot in, close the distance, and once he got his hands on either one of them, they'd be finished. If you're close enough to get tagged by Manny's 67 inch reach (lawl), then you're close enough to go for a double/single leg or a clinch.
I don't know how many times this has to be proven in order for people to shut up about it.
And fyi, Art Jimmerson was ranked as the 10th best cruiserweight in the world at the time when Royce beat him in the first UFC. And Royce has no where near the take down ability of a high school wrestler.
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I'm really starting to the think we should move this to the martial arts thread. The stuff we're talking about nowadays has more to do with martial arts in general than it does with the original premise of this thread.
Of course it was. His hands and feet kept George at bay; and what can that be attributed to? (see: Taekwondo). Even Siver's signature move, the spinning back kick (proper name: reverse side kick) is a move straight from TKD. That's why you don't see Muay Thai guys doing. Its best left in the hands--or rather, feet--of a TKD specialist.
Now add all of ^that against a BBJ guy who has little-to-no take-down skills (ie: George Sotiropoulis), and what you have is nothing short of a turkey shoot.
See above.
A good wrestler, yes. A HS state champ or some kind of ridiculously good child prodigy wrestler could take out a boxer, no doubt. But take a look at most of the runts on HS wrestling teams; they're children playing a man's game. They're about as harmless as scrawny teenage blackbelts.
I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. Yes, Siver was absolutely kicking George's ass in the striking department. There's no question about that. However, he was able to keep it there (meaning, on the feet) because he trained his take down defense pretty heavily for that fight. You could tell, because every time George got a hold of him, Siver was able to shrug off all his attempts.
And I agree that George's take down ability isn't all that great, but prior to that fight, he was able to take down Joe Stevenson, Kurt Pellegrino, and Joe Lauzon. Siver's grappling defense is what impressed me the most in that fight. Everybody already knew his advantage was striking.
Meh, I just assumed you knew I was talking about high school wrestlers who are at least good enough to make the team. If you didn't, I apologize. And really, all that would be needed is a good shot, because they'd (Mayweather and Pacman) offer little to no resistance compared to other wrestlers that he (the wrestler) goes against in practice.
Absolutely.
That's why I think high-level wrestling + high-level BJJ is one of, if not, the most potent combination in MMA today. Jake Shields is a perfect example of this. He has the ability to dictate where the fight takes place, and he can bring the fight to where he's the strongest: the ground. That's why he's on a 6 year, 15-fight win-streak.
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Yeah, but this thread was more about discussing the article in the original post. It isn't just general MMA. We could probably get more input in the MA thread if we're just discussing stuff like judo/wrestling > bjj in takedowns.
Last edited by StyleTime on Apr 15th, 2011 at 09:10 PM
The whole high level wrestling mixed with Ju Jitsu is becoming a style of it's own. When a D1 wrestler enters submission competitions it's almost not fair.
What is it with traditionalists and anything new. They were the same way with bruce lee. Martial Arts have evolved more in the last 15 years that it has in the last 500 years before. Traditional MAs are upset that mma has proven thier theories wrong. Just like bruce lee did. Take what is useful, throw away what is not and add what is uniquely your own.
-Instead of focusing on sparring, the class is mostly divided into practicing kata/forms, one-steps, board breaks, etc..
-The school or instructor promotes the idea that his school and/or style is the ultimate best in the world, or that cross training in another form of martial arts is 100% unnecessary.
-If the school or instructor forbids entering tournaments, or if tournaments are restricted to specific styles or associations.
-If the idea of take-downs or wrestling is never addressed, or if "anti-grappling" techniques are taught.
-If the test for belt advancement consists mostly or entirely of memorization and making your form & one-steps look pretty
-If board breaking has a heavy emphasis, or is taught to be an indicating to how well you would fight, or is used as a supplement to full contact fighting.
-If the school has too many belts, or made up belts (such as camouflage belts)
-If the school insists on long contracts and or uses collection agencies for late or missed payments.
-If there are expensive clubs that you must join in order to learn or participate in various clinics or seminars, such as the "Black Belt Club", or "Masters Club"
-If the school owns an actual franchise, such as "Karate for Kids" or "Tiny Tigers"
-If the school uses a pitch book to get you to join or to convince you to sign your kids up
-If the self-defense techniques that are taught aren't at full speed or contact, or if the school is insistent only on one way of doing it
-If the equipment (gear/uniforms/weapons) costs too much and/or is only ordered through the organization
-If testing and monthly fees are excessive, for any reason
-If the instructor is a master, yet under 40.
-If the instructor's credentials seem sketchy or are non-existent.
-If the instructor proclaims to be a master of many arts, and is also extremely young.
-If the school advertises that the grandmaster of the style regularly teaches there
-If the school has many students, such as over 100, or if there are many black belts
-If once reaching black belt students are encouraged to go start their own school or consider teaching
-If ground-fighting is offered, it's exclusive to club members (which usually have a high fee) and/or not allowed until a high rank
-The instructor rarely works out with the students and has his assistants do most or all of the teaching
-If they teach weapons like the sai and nunchaku as a form of self-defense
-If they are a Chinese martial art and use karate belts
-If they glorify or try to imitate the Samurai or ninja.
-If the instructor is overweight or in his seventies
-If the instructor claims to have received exclusive training from some mysterious master in the wilderness of [insert Asian country]
Key phrases that usually give away a McDojo:
"We don't believe pain or getting hurt is necessary to learning how to fight (or train)"
"Sparring with contact means you have no control"
"It's harder to throw a kick and stop it inches from someone's face than just actually hit them"
"If you can throw an attack and pull it without hitting someone during sparring, you can throw an attack and hit an attacker on the street easily"
"We have advanced training that allows us to promote faster than other martial arts"
"You should never wrestle a wrestler"
"We have anti-grappling techniques that can stop any grappler"
"Our martial art comes from [insert Asian country] and is over 5000 years old."
"We believe in upholding the noble principles of the Samurai & their code of Bushido"
"With our sophisticated training, you can become a black belt within 2 years"
"We charge more than other schools because we offer world class training, we've even had winners at national or world tournaments"
"If a child can do all the same requirements as an adult to become black belt, then why shouldn't he be given a black belt?"
basically street fighting with rules & most of the rules suit grapplers.
1. can not hit in back of the head - this will give someone advantage by shooting in without worry a bout the back of the his head. As striker can do a lot of damage by elbow or chop to the back of the head.2. can not kick or knee to the face when the opponent's knees are on ground even though he/she is aggressively try to take down his opponents. I can understand you can not kick the opponent on ground when he/she in defensive less mode. but not when opponent is attacking you.
3. certain elbow hits for when you're on top.4. anyone notice the MMA clip show brutal strikes & shyt? only for fgt some to grapple your time away?
MMA fails period
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Last edited by 0mega Spawn on May 16th, 2011 at 12:20 AM
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