Perhaps you could provide some evidence that Anakin was emotionally stable, evidence that proves he was thinking clearly--with a rational, steady mind. I have read every duel in that novel several times recently and there is A.) evidence to show that Anakin was of utmost clarity and level-headedness when he killed Dooku, and B.) absolutely no evidence to support he was of the same state when he lost to Kenobi.
There IS, however, visual and verbal evidence to support that his beliefs had been shaken to the core, he had betrayed everyone he knew, had been betrayed by the people closest to him, and was visibly (the famous tear scene) distraught with what he was doing as a result. The Tear scene was before his revelation that Padme and Kenobi had betrayed him. With that you add rage (his "nuclear fury") to the mix.
And don't. You. Dare try to write off that scene, with the cinematically notorious Single Tear, running down a face like that, as "nothing that conclusively proves Anakin was emotionally unbalanced." You will have officially joined the ranks of those "nuh-uh, no it doesn't, NO!" people the seniors here have come to shun/mock. Please, for our numbers' sake, don't drop your name from our mighty and illustrious club. There's obeying canon-providers and commentaries, and there's refusing to acknowledge what can only be described as F*cking Common Sense.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Are you asking me to prove a negative? "Provide proof that he wasn't..."
You are better than that.
Its your claim. You back it up. Just as there is nothing in the book to say he was clear-headed, there is nothing to say he was, either. And its your claim.
However, you admit in the next paragraph that you are of the opinion that you are correct, and THAT is wherein you base your argument, so I don't mind. I'll address that instead.
A single tear? THAT'S your compelling, inescapable, i'm a moron for disagreeing- visual evidence? Really LL? are you arguing from desperation here? Don't worry about it, I don't care who wins, I never have, I just like to examine all of the facts. Take a minute to do that. Its seems you want to be right more than you want to provide actual evidence.
And rage? Since when does rage make someone a worse fighter? Rage makes force-users stronger. Kenobi tapping the dark-side to put up a fight against Maul confirms this.
I really don't understand your use of extra periods here... however...
Its a single tear. Anakin just killed a lot of people, but he cried more than that after killing the sand-people in Episode 2. He cried more than that when raging against the Jedi "Holding him back!" in episode 2. You are trying to take a single tear and turn it into a gimped Anakin.
That doesn't work simply because EVERYTHING Anakin has just gone through, Kenobi has gone through more. He just had his entire order wiped out, his home destroyed, his brother turn on him, and now he is there to kill this same brother. No one is arguing that Kenobi is gimped in this fight, but every argument you are making for why it is "common sense" that Anakin isn't putting up a top-notch fight also applies to Kenobi.
(an aside, cause I just thought of it, your best evidence, that you should bring up is the "wrestling with the dragon" text from ROTS novelization. It is the closest thing you will get to confirming your theory with canon.)
Just stop. No one cares (or should care) about their "status" on KMC and its 40 weekly posts. This post makes you sound pompous. It is a stupid tactic to take. If you can't discuss star wars without making it personal, i pity you.
Now, how about a point by point rebuttal this time? Your idea of "common sense" and mine are obviously different. Bringing up holocaust deniers as an example of someone else ignoring common sense doesn't help you because we all DO call those people morons. So unless you are attempting to deliberately insult me, then respond to the argument, and not to the concept of someone being wrong simply because they are nonsensical. This is EXACTLY what everyone (including yourself) just called Ush out for doing.
You're right, there is no text that he was f*cked up. There is no text that he wasn't. So where is the basis of YOUR stance?
Ditto.
My side (the grandest of the two--we have business cards) has A.) Anakin weeping, B.) delusions of grandeur, C.) irrational accusations, D.) telekinetic assault on the very pregnant love of his life for whom he has quite literally sacrificed all for and E.) a prolonged attempt to kill his best friend.
Those are the reasons why I think that Anakin was emotionally unstable, wrong in the head, unable to to think with a clear and rational mind, and unable to purge from his thoughts a driving rage which overcame all reason.
What do YOU have?
Yes, and was promptly defeated.
No, I'm taking a scene filled with bombastically somber music, that moves from the death of the Republic, over corpses, and their killer's dark frame against a crimson and black backdrop. I'm taking that killer's disturbed, glaring, and weeping face and putting in to the context that is heavily implied.
How do YOU see it? Just another day in the park slaughtering people and forsaking my entire life and--damn all that smoke from the lava river is tearing me up something awful?
Good for Obi-Wan, he's a stronger mind and better Jedi than Anakin. But we're talking about Anakin here, not Obi-Wan. I stubbed my toe and swore in German. My buddy stubbed his toe and sobbed like a little b*tch. Different people, different reactions, different strengths and weaknesses.
Thanks, sugar.
This is why I love you TeeJ; you can't tell when someone's being frivolous.
I'm genuinely confused at what you're trying to say here.
I... I, uh, have been responding. The entire time. With detailed descriptions from the film. Direct quotations from the novel. Analyses of what it says. That's not Ushing, that's arguing.
What I AM doing though, is confronting you on your skewered take on what's canon and what's bullshit. If Anakin's actions, words, and facial expressions (they exist, okay?) are the those of a clear-headed man who knows to think out and talk about everything that's been happening, before jumping to insane conclusions and attempting to kill your wife, unborn child, an best friend---then yes, you are absolutely right, and have been right the whole time.
If, however, you feel the above is the behaviour of a man who has f*cking lost it and can't tell friend from foe--to the point that killing his FriendFoe is all that drives him, then we are in agreement.
You can ask me to prove that Craig loves his wife all you want. And I'm just gonna keep telling you that he swallowed the hydrochloric acid to release her from the malevolent machinery. But nah, he really didn't like her.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Well, you must understand that people may think you're actually making a counter-argument when you're trying to refute the evidence that people have been giving.
Fixed.
__________________ Imagination is more important than knowledge.
__________________ Every time this fool be come along
He gots you noobs cryin' out fo' mom
Leave the scene lookin' like Vietnam
Might as well call him "Matt Atom Bomb"
Like his name suggests, he's quite atomic
And this fool - he likes DC Comics
Two energy swords make up his symbol
And trust me, dawg, this homie's nimble
If i hacked your account, it wouldn't of been a mistake, it would of been an act of sabotage, you lose again good sir
__________________ Every time this fool be come along
He gots you noobs cryin' out fo' mom
Leave the scene lookin' like Vietnam
Might as well call him "Matt Atom Bomb"
Like his name suggests, he's quite atomic
And this fool - he likes DC Comics
Two energy swords make up his symbol
And trust me, dawg, this homie's nimble
Lucien I must and I rarely disagree with you. When Anakin slaughtered the Jedi in the Temple and the seperatists on Mustafar, he didn't automatically switch to the mentality "well, I'm a Sith Lord and I do this this and that that without question." The kid was confused in the tear scene and possibly thinking "what the hell am I doing? Am I doing the right thing?" It was only until his perceived Padme's betrayal when he lost it.
Nobody is in their proper state of mind when their girlfriend or wife dumps them. That may have been the true breaking point for him. When my ex-fiance cheated on me and I dumped her, I wasn't myself for 6 months. I suffered clinical depression. That was another reason why he lost control in my opinion - he was pissed and he had to take it out on someone and Obi-Wan just happened to be there. Or it was symbolic that in order to achieve Sith Lord status the apprentice must kill the Master and who was Anakin/Vader's first Master? Obi-Wan, but instead he lost due to his reckless and rageaholic fighting.
__________________ "Great men are forged in fire. It is the privilege of lesser men to light the flame . . . whatever the cost"
Yeah, I know. I've made mention of that fact several times now. It was the betrayal that added blinding rage to the mix. Deep seated confusion about your life, ideals, and actions are bad enough--and then uninhibited fury to further cloud his judgment. Seriously, did you even read the majority of my posts?
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Actually I used the word 'if' therefore not admitting to it.
Doesn't count. I'm a hypocrite.
__________________ Every time this fool be come along
He gots you noobs cryin' out fo' mom
Leave the scene lookin' like Vietnam
Might as well call him "Matt Atom Bomb"
Like his name suggests, he's quite atomic
And this fool - he likes DC Comics
Two energy swords make up his symbol
And trust me, dawg, this homie's nimble
Yes I do Lucien and you always make extremely valid points and great smart-ass jokes. Always lightens my mood when I'm pissed off.
Jinsoku Takai - before Anakin aided Sidious in taking out Windu, he was torn on what to do: "save" Padme or fufill his duty to the Jedi Order by killing the Sith Lord. He was conflicted torn and crying - even in Sid's office he was having trouble making up his mind.
__________________ "Great men are forged in fire. It is the privilege of lesser men to light the flame . . . whatever the cost"
Slash KMC has already explained this far more eloquently, but I'll toss this in anyway.
You are not making any sense. Having a clear head (perhaps it would be better to say a clear HEART) doesn't mean thinking about each move (indeed the very words "clear head" state that it ISN'T filled with thoughts); it just means you don't have something weighing on your mind, or you do but you're able to keep those thoughts/feelings from distracting you.
If you are playing tennis and you are having troubles with your significant other, then you won't do as well as if you were not.
So yes, that is common sense.
Last edited by chilled monkey on Oct 2nd, 2010 at 11:54 PM
Right on sub-zero monkey boy! Hell, just look at Tiger Woods... the (former) best in the world is now having great difficulty even qualifying for a large number of tournaments; All because of his trouble with his now former wife.
__________________ “Life is tough, but it is tougher when you’re stupid.” -John Wayne
Sep 27th, 2010 01:36 AM
