Well, in TPM Anakin is not really the protagonist. He's a just an accidental meeting. QGJ is and his quest is to resolve the dispute, then tobring the queen to Coruscant and then escort her back to Naboo (but not fight a war for her and then do just that) and then then... to fight Maul I guess... See, it's a muddled story.
They are the same yest, but from the point of view of a person who never saw the OT then palps and sidious are not the same. until the end of TPM if they can piece it together or by 3/4 way through ROTS.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view"
Didn't you just say Anakin was the protagonist? He's not the main one yes but we still cheer for him and are routing for him.
The notion that "Empire Strikes Back" is the holy grail of Star Wars didn't start being tossed around till about 10 years ago.
It was met with mixed reactions from critics when it first opened in 1980, but in time, it became an extremely appreciated chapter in the Star Wars saga.
Why do I say this? Because if Star Wars as we knew it ended after Empire, then that film would at best, be a medicore follow up to the original. People wouldn't have liked the darkness, the slow pacing, the somber feeling at the end of the movie. It's depressing and people would have found it to be far from what the original was.
The reason this movie works so well however, is because of Return of the Jedi. In Jedi, the characters work to overcome their obstacles where as in the "middle" chapter in Empire, the characters were all in their darkest hours. With almost any story you hear anyone tell, the middle is the most important and interesting part of the story, because the end is what wraps everything together... This is why I think the PT fails to many people, because AOTC in my opinion, as a stand alone film, is great...but as a bridge between Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith....it could be better.
When we know that Jedi ends in a "happily ever after" feeling, then Empire becomes the most fascinating chapter because the characters were at their lowest point in the OT. If however, the OT had simply ended after Empire, again, we can all admit that it wouldn't have been the film people love today.
It serves it's purpose as an excellent filler, I'll admit. But again, as a stand alone movie, I think it's a tad overrated. I adore the last 45 minutes of the film...I absolutely do, but the first chunk of it to me is on par with everything else. I don't dislike it, I just don't hold it on a pedistal either.
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Last edited by Sith Master X on Jan 13th, 2011 at 12:19 AM
And please don't forget that the 'I am your father" line from ESB shocked the world. It certainly was not without impact.
But yes, it is the third act. And that's how a third act should be, it has an open ending which doesn't strike as very hopeful. Exactly what a second act should do, and of course a second act should be cashed in by the third.
So that is why ESB is appreciated so much. Not only does it have the best acting of prolly the entire saga, it also doesn't seem to go for grand action packed massive scenes. It's quite intimate, it has spectacle and a great snow battle (but not as massive as the Space battle in TPM, ROTJ or even ANH as it was intended, it wasn't the huge ground battle from AOTC) and has many great character scenes, unexpected twists and turns (the space slug, the cave, Vader as Luke's father) and some of the greatest lines ever written and often reproduced in the series. So no wonder it has reached the status of best film in the saga: it is.
If Palps and Sidious are not to be considered as one, as you righfully say, Palpy doesn't do much. He doesn't do anything at all and makes you wonder why he should succeed Valorum... Palps is only interesting BECAUSE he is Sidious. So as a separate character Senator Palpatine is quite boring.
Anakin is the protagonist of the PT, but he certainly is NOT in TPM: another demonstration of how muddled the PT is. It's much ado about things that shouldn't be much ado about.
Agreed, ESB is the best, it was the first movie i lined up for around the block outside with my dad and his dad. ah memories, gone are the days of lining up and the guy comes out to tell you the show is sold out. LOL
But what I'm more importantly asking is this simple question. To those that saw the OT in the theaters when they first came out....after seeing Empire for the first time, did you immediately think it was leaps and bounds better than ANH....or as time passed...did the movie grow on you as the most interesting and haunting chapter of the SW saga?
I'm going to guess that it's a movie that became appreciated within time, and not when it was first released. Because any research into ESB, you will find that the film was met with very mixed reactions when it first opened....and I can understand why, because the movie doesn't look nearly as brilliant as it is until you've seen Jedi.
Yeah, the "I am your father" line shocked the world...but honestly, did ESB really seem that much better than ANH when you first walked out of the theaters?
When people first saw TPM and noticed how kid friendly it was, it sparked this whole "Oh, ROTJ was kid friendly too...and now that I think of it, so wasn't ANH. The only one that seems the most adult like was ESB. ESB is by far the best." We all know darn well that Empire was a film that aged very, very well, and was never put on a pedistal until years down the road.
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Last edited by Sith Master X on Jan 13th, 2011 at 10:00 PM
To be honest, my Star Wars fanship was ignited full flame because of ESB. ANH being rereleased certainly helped, but ESB enlarged the SW universe: more of the great stuff. And I was 11 then... so yeah, I was a kid and Empire made SW a saga, not just the one movie. Plus it promised a third movie, since it wasn't finished. I was wondering if Vader was really Luke's father for three years. I just couldn't believe it.
TPM was kid friendly. I think the entire SW was kid friendly, except ROTS perhaps. But what I do think the OT did not do, unlike TPM, is exclude adults.
Esb did it for me as well i was 7 when that came out and I loved it. It had such an impact on me. Anh I saw on video maybe in 1978 or 79?
I dont think tpm excluded adults. There was stuff for everyone and I think Lucas knew that he had to broaden the viewing age to get more people and hence we have jar jar. But his role was considerably down graded in 2 and 3 I think for one cause of all the flack he got plus because c3po and r2 were more prominent in it.
ANH was also a great success among kids without a clown like Jar Jar and without the poop jokes, and without as smart a$$ kid. So why TPM had to focus so heavily on little kids, I still don't understand. I think that kind of said to the adult SW fans: hey, I'm trying to tap into a whole new generation of under-tens. As if poop jokes and a lame Jar Jar (which he liked a lot BTW) are the only way to also attract kids... it certainly wasn't the SW way until then.
Agreed but you have to remember which I think you can cause you were 8 when anh came out i think?
That us as kids in 77 were alot tougher. I saw alien when I was 7 and jaws when I was 5. You wouldn't even think of showing those to a kid now till they were 14 or so?
I'm starting to feel like I don't have much of a life debating which fictional set of films are better than another fictional set of films. lol I've pretty much said all my thoughts on it, but I'll end with one last note.
I didn't hate Jar Jar so much, and I don't think GL ever created him with the intention of pissing off his fans. He was there to please the younger audience of course, but to this day whenever I watch TPM I don't mind Jar Jar, or young Anakin. Never found them annoying or anything. Jake Lloyd acted the way he acted in Jingle All The Way and no one ever found a reason to dislike that movie. In fact, even though it's plot is shallow, people were able to enjoy it for what it is, a fun Christmas film and no one ever picks on the poor kid for his acting. Then Jake performs even better in TPM and now it's a problem because the OT never had kids, so he's an annoying little boy. What did kiddie Anakin do again that was so annoying? Say things like "I'm a person and my name is Anakin." The pod race where he never speaks. Asking his mom if he'll ever see her again? Oh...mind him for having feelings. lol Because he flew a ship and destroyed the battle station and said things like "let's try spinning, that's a good trick." Asked Qui-Gon what midi-chilorians are or Padme if she was an Angel? I don't get it. I still think people are going way out of their way to find problems with it. I think using kids as a reason not to like something is another extremely easy way out.
These scenes should have been the most cherrished by PT haters considering most of Tatooine was shot using "real sets." The pod-race, even though CGI, was an incredible accomplishment by ILM and I think that's arguably some of the best 10 minutes of the entire 6 films. I don't see how having a kid plays into any reason for ruining the pod-race, or any other scene that he was in.
It wasn't so much the kid itself I guess. Certainly, the yippeee's and ooopses didn't help the character. I think the worst bit was that Anakin did everything by accident, there never seemed much talent there. It happened by chance, Lucas will prolly explain that as 'the will of the Force'. But I do think that kinda does away with the way that was portrayed in the OT. We know that Luke was a good pilot, not because he accidentally pushed the right buttons, but because he was good.
Darth Maul was a lame ass villian.He looks like the rock group Kiss. Put a guitar in his hand and he would be perfect for that group. He totally ruined the credibility of the first sequal.
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Jan 12th, 2011 06:36 PM
Put a guitar in his hand and he would be perfect for that group. 
