Can you post this official source, please? Because if the source in question IS official, and DOES say that full power Frieza's PL was 120,000,000, then it would certainly clear up the confusion on all ends.
But I, for one, have NEVER seen figures that high for Frieza. That's why I need to see this official end all/be all evidence before I'll believe what you are saying. No offense intended.
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Not only have the scans been posted on the internet for quite some time...they've been posted on KMC before, as well.
I have a hard time making any effort to Google search for you the official power levels listed in the Daizenshuus when you could have done it yourself. This, I think, is why people are growing tired of our conversations.
It definitely is.
Also, you don't even need the official Daizenshuu listings to know that Frieza was definitely over 100,000,000 based on simple percentages.
There's no confusion on this end.
Because you're using the late 90s early 2000s American fan site listing: none of which are accurate or even match up, mathematically, with: the manga, anime, and official Daizenshuu 7 listing.
Really? You'll give this up, entirely, because all of your points hinged on very low power level ratings?
Cool beans. I didn't realize their PL's were so high.
Still dont believe a 3-Namek fusion would have that level of power, though -- even if they had the chance to do so here (which they likely wouldn't.) But I appreciate the scan nonetheless.
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Last edited by Galan007 on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 11:26 PM
Personally I just have a hard time believing that Piccolo's PL would have jumped from < 2,000,000 to upwards of 120,000,000 just by fusing with an additional no name Namek after he'd already fused with Nail. That's more than a 60x increase in power.
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We agree, there, that 3 fusions would not get completed in time.
I'm under the assumption that Frieza has a scouter. One fusion would cause Frieza's scouter to go haywire.
There were several other Namekians that were around 3000.
If Nail, who was stronger than Piccolo when they fused, fused with some of the other more powerful Namekians (the ones in the 3000s), they would be a good boost...but not as high as the fusion with Nail and Piccolo.
Again, Piccolo was only on King Kai's planet for just a few days. Goku trained on King Kai's planet for 152 days and only went from 460 to 8000. Piccolo did not have nearly enough time to train to make a large power boost, even if you consider it a ratio rather than a time linear/gradual power boost.
If we do it by a ratio, Goku's power increased 17.39 times over, over the course of 152 days. Divide each day by 17.39 to come up with the power increase factor that each day gave him: .11.
So apply that to the 5 days Piccolo stayed on King Kai's planet:
His power level jumps up to 5898, not 20,000.
So even if I get generous and apply a power leveling ratio instead of just an arbitrary number, it still does not make Piccolo anywhere near 20,000 in power level.
I like the 20,000 number, though, because it allows for a power boost while traveling on Snake Road in addition to working on King Kai's planet with the Z-Warriors. I say this because Goku didn't just train with speed and martial arts: he also spent some time training for the Kaio Ken and Spirit Bomb. How much? Well, the manga clearly shows Goku fighting hand to hand with King Kai towards the very end of his training in a "collage" towards the very end of his stay, so it doesn't appear that Goku relented much on doing anything but hard training with King Kai.
So, really, I should relent and say that Piccolo's power was probably closer to 10,000 rather than 20,000 when he left King Kai's planet...assuming Piccolo trained harder than Goku for only the 5 days that he was there.
Knowing that...and knowing that his power jumped from 10,000-20,000 all the way to around 1,000,000 after merging with Nail, that's a giant power increase from 50-100 times. Permanent fusion is supposed to be stronger than the fusion dance and the fusion dance greatly increases the power beyond just the simple addition of each person's power (meaning, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.) So it should be no wonder than Namekian fusion is a giant boost in power. This would also explain why Piccolo's power increased 50-100 fold when he fused with Kami: he went from being in the low single digit millions to definitely stronger than any regular SSJ.
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Last edited by dadudemon on Apr 4th, 2011 at 05:42 PM
I absolutely agree that Namekian fusions denote a very large boost in power -- I've never contested that much. The only part I disagree with is that Piccolo's PL would have went from below 2 million to beyond 120 million had he fused with another random Namek (like I said earlier, that's well over a 60x increase in power.) I think if it were that easy to reach such enormous powers, the Namekian warriors Frieza and Vegeta steamrolled through would have opted to do so, rather than get killed. /shrug
And you may disagree (probably will :P) but I don't really like to count Kami/Piccolo's merger (or re-merger) as a 'standard' Namekian fusion. Imo, it was made pretty clear during the Cell saga that the powerup Piccolo gained upon fusing back with Kami was significantly above any other boosts he had gained before, or could gain otherwise.
Oh, and I'd also like to retract a previous comment I made. 'Kamiccolo' was -not- more powerful than 17, and -not- equal to 16 (just read through that saga again.)
Base form Cell (not at full power) <[slightly] Kamiccolo = 17 < 16 = Base form Cell (at full power).
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Last edited by Galan007 on Apr 4th, 2011 at 06:08 PM
About Piccolo's PL, when he got to Namek I was under the impression he was a lot stronger than the 10,000 range, since when Nail saw him he was amazed by his power and compared him to the old school Namekian warriors who he took after.
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Nail was trained in the "secret" arts of Namekian warriors and this may be why Nail is impressed with Piccolo- a Piccolo who had got that strong without having gotten the specialized Namekian training. Nail also sees, almost immediately, that he is a split Namekian. Nail just is dang smart and was paying Piccolo a compliment.
His actual power cannot be higher than 10,000 when he got to Namek, based on numbers. We can give him a boost, just to be nice and that would put him closer to 20,000.
Think about it...Goku jumped from 8000 to 90,000 on his 6 day trip to Namek. He did so by pushing himself to the brink of death and eating a senzu bean 4 times. There's no way that Piccolo could have increased his power by a much larger margin than Goku did in only 5 days on King Kai's planet which only had 10 times Earth's gravity. Not only that but Goku had a higher starting level than Piccolo did: Piccolo had a power of 3500 at his death.
Namekians do not possess the same "stronger after a near-death experience" ability that Saiyan's have. So not only could his 5 day training on King Kai's planet being very marginal, they wouldn't have boosted him very much.
Also, Piccolo noticed all of the others but they did not notice his power, meaning, he wasn't strong enough to register from that far away while they were distracted.
When Nail met Piccolo he was "impressed" by his power, and also noted that he was "VERY strong". And considering Nail himself had a PL of 42,000 -and- he'd just battled base form Frieza who had a PL of 530,000, it seems to me that the intention was to have Piccolo at least on Nail's level (if not beyond). Personally, I don't think Nail would have claimed that a power not even half at large as his own was "VERY strong", but that's just me. /shrug
Regardless, since nothing was explicitly stated pertaining to Piccolo's PL pre-Nail-fusion, there's really no way to know where he was numerically. It's really just a guess on all sides.
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Last edited by Galan007 on Apr 4th, 2011 at 07:28 PM
He also did not say that Piccolo was stronger than himself. He also said, very clearly, that he wasn't strong enough to defeat Frieza.
Also, Piccolo was not at Nail's level. Unless you're suggesting that he has an ability to gain power faster than a Saiyan brought to near death 4 times in a row.
No, we can guess within a few thousand of where he was, numerically.
Here's a more logical explanation for why Nail was impressed with his power:
"Nail was trained in the 'secret' arts of Namekian warriors and this may be why Nail is impressed with Piccolo- a Piccolo who had got that strong without having gotten the specialized Namekian training.
Namekians do not possess the same "stronger after a near-death experience" ability that Saiyan's have. So not only could his 5 day training on King Kai's planet being very marginal, they wouldn't have boosted him very much."
If you go by a logical numeric measure, Piccolo is somewhere between 3500 and 10,000. If you want to get generous, you can give him 20,000.
Since 20,000 works out, much more nicely, to give him a power much higher, but not gigantically higher, than SSJ Goku (when Goku fought Frieza), then we see that 20,000 works out quite well.
Again, no one on Namek was a warrior class except for Nail. The others, at best, were in the 3000-400 range. Piccolo is also MUCH younger than most of them: he's only 10-11 years old when he gets to Namek. Having obtained, even though he's a warrior class, a power of anything over 3000, would be an amazing accomplishment.
Additionally, by you logic, if someone compliments another on them being strong, that makes them stronger than the one paying the compliment. That's not the case, at all. Goku pretty much tells everyone that they are strong in one way or another: it's more of a respect thing.
Correction: Piccolo was 9 when he fought Frieza. He was 3 when he fought Goku in the Dragonball Tournie. 5 years passed between the tournie and the Radditz fight. Another year passed after that when they fought Nappa and Vegeta and only a couple of months pass after that before he fighst Frieza...so he was only 9.
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Last edited by dadudemon on Apr 4th, 2011 at 07:57 PM
You're adding more to my post than what I said. I didn't say Piccolo "was" or "had to have been" on Nail's level. I simply gave my opinion, based on how -I- took Nail's statement(s) in that scene... Same as you're doing. So unless you know of an official source which explicitly says "Piccolo's power level when he first arrived on Namek = X", all we really can do is speculate on the matter. My opinion is no more correct/incorrect than yours.
No reason to start getting defensive.
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Last edited by Galan007 on Apr 4th, 2011 at 08:14 PM
No, that's wrong. There are actually correct ways to go about coming up with estimations that would be very close.
There's no way that Piccolo could have gotten even remotely as powerful as Goku did during his (Piccolo's) visit to the Kai's planet. That puts him far less than 80,000 because that's where Goku was.
We know he died at 3500 against Nappa.
So that puts him at least above 3500.
That's an exact range that he has to fall under: that's not some sort of baseless guess.
In order for Piccolo to be anywhere close to 20,000 after only 5 days of King Kai planet training, he would have had to have experienced one "Saiyan Near Death and recovery" experience because Vegeta went from 18,000 to 24,000 and those were exact numbers. We know that it is impossible for Namekians to do that: they do not have the Saiyan recovery "trick."
Additionally, we know how much time Goku spent on King Kai's planet and how much his power grew. Doing linear growth netted a very small power increase. Even doing a ratio growth for Piccolo still netted a small power increase.
That's neither baseless nor is it wrong: they are two estimations based on facts we know. Baseless would be guessing how strong Goku was in FPSSJ mode. Even then, that's still not a completely baseless guess as we do have a base with which to make guesses on.
Hmmm....Ah, here we go: baseless would be assigning Cell a power level when he FIRST emerged.
Anyway, I do admit that 20,000 is arbitrary as all logic and math points to a value of less than 10,000. It's baseless for me to assign him a power of 20,000, actually. I should just drop it to between 5000 and 10,000 as that would not be baseless and would capture his range perfectly.
There's a difference between trying to talk reason into someone and getting defensive.
^ Again, that is all just your opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.
My opinion, based on Nail's statement(s) regarding Piccolo's power, is that Toriyama intended he [Piccolo] to be more powerful than you're giving him credit for when he first arrived on Namek (hence Nail's "you're VERY strong" comment). But again, that is just the impression I personally got from the scene. Nothing more, nothing less.
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No, it's not. I outlined which portions were opinion and which ones could not be opinion.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: But that's impossible because Piccolo:
1. Does not have the Saiyan recovery ability.
2. Only got to train on King Kai's planet for 5 days.
So, no, it is impossible and it is a fact that Piccolo is no where near Goku's level of power of 80,000.
Also, Goku told Uub that he was very strong...but Goku could have EASILY mopped the floor with him: like I said, it's a form of respect and a compliment. Also, Nail could have been relieved that someone strong came around that he could merge with because he was the strongest Namekian on the planet Namek and no one came even close to his power so he was probably relieved that someone over 5000 in power found him so he could merge with them to get revenge on Frieza...which that is exactly that case because that's exactly what he says a few panels later.
Let's recap: Goku trained under 100x gravity for 6 days. Piccolo trained under 10x. Goku jumped from a base of 8000 to 80,000. Piccolo jumped from 3500 to X. We do not know what X is.
We know that Nail was 42,000, peak.
How did Goku get to 80,000?
Almost killing himself a minimum of 4 times and using the Saiyan recovery ability.
Fact: Piccolo would not be able to even remotely come close to Goku's power level.
Any conclusion beyond just a couple of thousand increase in Piccolo's power level would be wrong and contradictory to the facts in the Manga.
Where do you think Piccolo's power was? And why did you conclude that?
As I keep reiterating: since there are absolutely -no- official figures regarding Piccolo's PL when he first arrived on Namek (if you know of any PLEASE post them so we can end this boring discussion), anything you come up with -however logical you think it may be- is still just your opinion. It quite literally cannot be anything else.
That said, if you think Piccolo was in the 10,000 range, that's fine. It's your opinion... Just like it's my opinion that his PL was beyond that, based on how I interpreted the narration.
Agree to disagree?
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You do not need official figures to actually come to a 100% factual conclusion.
Case-in-point: we know Goku's base power level, at max, when arriving on Namek was 90,000. Yet, his highest reading was 180,000. How do we know that? Cause he was using Kaio Ken which briefly doubles your power.
That said, if you think Piccolo was in the 10,000 range, that's fine. It's your opinion... Just like it's my opinion that his PL was beyond that, based on how I interpreted the narration.
No. I cannot agree to disagree as you have an ill-conceived idea on how strong Piccolo was.
If you can admit that Piccolo wasn't anywhere even close to 90,000 and was between 10,000-20,000, we can agree...despite that fact that the numbers show that Piccolo could not be any stronger than 10,000.
At that point, I would agree to disagree because I am willing to give Piccolo a bump.
Ok, what we need to do is find the cupboard from "Indian in the cupbord" get a frieza figure, and thousands and thousands of sayans and namak figures, and make them all alive, and pit them against each other.....wait..there is very little chance we would survive this, never mind!
Regardless of how exponential the namekian fusion is, if they ALL fused, or even several of the most powerful, there is very little chance that frieza would win this. Especially, if he goes down even one form.
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