You're just drawing conclusions based on the way you personally perceived the events though. Although, Nathaniel used the word 'sacrificed', as stated before, he was making an assumption based on Franklin's 'kamakaze' move. As for what you describe as a 'big sorrow scene, I think Franklin's family was afraid that he didn't survive. It's like watching a loved one go into a burning building only to watch it collapse. At first, you might panic, and then you later miraculously see the person come out of the situation alive and well. The fact that we saw Franklin emerge from his herald's hands doesn't necessarily indicate the former was dead. We just don't know for sure.
I understand what you're saying about the Beyonder, but again, you're just making an assumption here. It's 2012, and believe it or not, some readers (new ones especially) have no clue about the Beyonder. I'm looking at this solely based on what was shown in the pages of F4. And to me, Galactus looked wrecked. Others on this very board have said as much.
The armor is wrecked in 603, but when you first see the armor in 604 there is really no sign of damage (and that is before the orb begins to work on Galactus).
Wow, pretty impressive feat from Galactus, basically creating a being of near equal power, after destroying the remaining Mad Celestial.
So Franklin revived/healed a dying/unconscious Galactus, who then went and ripped one Celestial apart and eye-beamed another to death, Adult Franklin meanwhile sacrificed himself to kill the remaining Celestial.
After all that, Galactus created a brand spanking new teenage Franklin (mint condition).
Franklin used kid Franklin's power to revive Galactus who then proceeded to kill another Celestial.
He eye beamed the last one (the red one) and damaged him. However, the same Celestial blasted a hole through Galactus and then Adult Franklin flew threw into the hole G created and blew up the Celestial.
Then Galactus returned the favor and revived Adult Franklin.
Considering it wasn't stated that he used "all" of the power young Franklin gave him to resurrect Galactus, I don't really think you can rule out the possibility that adult Franklin may have tapped some of it's power... Especially to destroy the first Celestial.
After all, adult Franklin destroyed that first Celestial with ridiculous ease--and that was just after he took young Franklin's energies. Yet after adult Franklin used said energies to resurrect Galactus (leaving him with only his original power), he had to literally commit suicide in order to beat the last remaining Celestial. So on panel, adult Franklin /w/ young Franklin's power > adult Franklin alone.
Analogy time: if I can bench 500lbs on steroids, but can only bench 200lbs without steroids, I think it's safe to say the steroids made me stronger.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Mar 15th, 2012 at 02:52 PM
The same "drawing conclusions" bit can logically be applied to the perception that Galactus "died." The narrative in no way supports that Galactus is dead, or even hints at it: Take away the visual imagery and there's absolutely no indication that Galactus is dead or even down. This is in contrast to the whole "sad story" as bran likes to put it, for Franklin. Which is explained as follows:
You're looking at Nathaniel in some kind of vacuum where he possesses the same level of knowledge as the other bystanders of the battle (Reed, Sue, rest of the FF, etc.), which is flawed logic. As stated in the narrative, Nathaniel has gone through every iteration of the battle now unfolding between Franklin and the Celestials, has manipulated events, has even directly intervened, and as stated on panel, all came to the same conclusion: Reed dies. Also explicitly stated, implied through Nathaniel's statements: Nathaniel knows, presumably through all his time travel and manipulations and going through every iteration of the confrontation (i.e., Reed will always go through the bridge to discover the Council, the Mad Celestials will ALWAYS destroy the council, Reed will ALWAYS pay the ultimate price) that Franklin CANNOT defeat the Celestials.
That right there invalidates the presumption that Nathaniel is just another bystander like Reed, Black Bolt, Madusa, the Avengers, etc. who are just "watching" and happens to narrate what he perceives to be happening (he "assumed" Franklin died because of the attack. how can he reasonably "assume" when he's seen this battle before countless times and already knew the outcome of all of them prior to this one?). I argue that he's actually telling us what's happening since he has seen all possible iterations. Except THIS time, they introduced Galactus into the equation and he changed the outcome to be favorable to the Richards Family. in other words, if you read the arc from the very beginning of Hickman's run:
Adult Val and Franklin tell Sue to look to the skies, etc. when all hope is lost. Also they say "all hope lies in doom" or something to that effect (I don't remember who said it exactly, but it was mentioned 2 years ago).
Nathaniel comes back in time and starts scheming with young Val to try and save Reed from the inevitable outcome that is uniform across all permutations (Reed always dies at the hands of the Celestials, etc.) We never know what this plan is until a few issues ago
The plan was to buy enough time for Adult Val and Adult Franklin to ride the Revision Wave and then travel back in time to directly intervene in the Celestial battle (since the Celestials will always find Reed, etc). That whole process takes 27 seconds. However to the FF it's across several months or a year or whatever. The ultimate objective is to delay the Celestials long enough using several incidents:
Doom single-handed takes on the Celestials in the ruins of the Council while the rest make their escape. That delays the Celestials long enough ("all hope lies in Doom" is thus full-filled) for Reed to summon a prepped Galactus to the battle between the annihilation wave and the kree stellar armada, which he ends instantly.
Galactus and the Celestials battle, which in turn buys time for the assembly of Sol's Anvil, which destroys the combined celestial form and returns them to their three individual forms (Galactus having killed one in their initial battle).
Doom, Galactus, Sol's Anvil all buy enough time for Adult Franklin to come back. Franklin brings Galactus to the fray. Franklin loses to the Celestials without Galactus (already stated when Nathaniel says Franklin cannot beat the 3 remaining Celestials, having witnessed the battle countless times, etc.).
To sum up this long post, the plan was to use Doom, Galactus, Sol's Anvil to allow adult franklin time to battle the celestials and then re-introduce Galactus into the battle. That was the x-factor ("throughout all space and time, Galactus has had many heralds, franklin has only had one). If Galactus is on hand for every single time Franklin faces the Celestials, then the statement "throughout all space and time" would have been inaccurate.
EDIT: Also, someone mentioned that "technically" galactus only killed 1 Celestial. No, that's wrong. "Technically" he killed 2, because if we go by that flawed reasoning, then "technically" no one kills any Celestials except for Galactus if Sol's Anvil was never fired to take out the Combined Celestial, since the Combined Celestial>>>3 Celestials>Adult Franklin Richards.
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"It is unwise to battle the Power Cosmic." - Silver Surfer
^ It's possible. However, the individual mad Celestials were always portrayed at around the same level, imo. That's why I think young Franklin's power had a lot to do with adult Frank being able to defeat the first Celestial so easily, but having to kill himself in order to beat the final one. In the former, he had young Frank's power--in the latter, he didn't. I just think that's too much of a coincidence.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Mar 15th, 2012 at 03:53 PM
he killed one easily..but can't do it to the other two..then he gave kid Franklin power to Galactus and Galactus kill one easily..but fail to do so to the last one.. obviously that last one is more powerful than the rest..he even tank the UN if i'm not mistaken..
There was nothing "obvious" about it. All of the mad Celestials were generally portrayed around the same level. I don't even recall any statements being made that their powers differed. That said, there is no reason to think the final Celestial was any more powerful than the rest--let alone THAT much more powerful (Galactus was able to physically rip through its armor, after all.)
Adult Franklin had young Franklin's power when he [easily] killed the first Celestial. He did not have young Franklin's power when he killed the final Celestial, and had to preform a kamikaze/suicide attack to get the job done. Hard to imagine that just being coincidence.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Mar 15th, 2012 at 04:24 PM
when he face 3 Celestials..he manage to kill one easily..but he can't do the same against two remaining Celestials??that's just weird..if they all has the same power level..he would have kill all three easily like he kill the first one..and it's pretty well known that Celestial power varies individually..like Tiamut and Exitar..
I can beat up one Urkel. I'm pretty confident about that. But beating 3 Urkels attacking me from all sides is a different story.
Point: an amped adult Franklin may have been more powerful than the Celestials individually, but he could not compete with all 3 of them working in unison--that much was outright stated. And again: if the final Celestial was THAT much more powerful than the rest, Galactus likely wouldn't have been able to shred its armor like cheap tissue paper, me thinks.
Imo, adult Frank's power was clearly augmented to at least some degree after gaining young Franklin's power.
Mad Celestials=/=the mainstream/616 Celestials. It was never stated/portrayed that the Mad Celestials' individual powers varied at all--let alone as much as you're suggesting.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Frankln kill 1 when he was fighting 3..they were all coming for him..he wasn't fighting 1vs1..when the first Celestial attack him..he fought back and damage that Celestial..when the second one attack him..he killed it..and then the last Celestial attack and it hurts Franklin..so he call Galactus..and Galactus came and rip the damage Celestial in half..Franklin never fought 1vs1..he kill 1 when he was fighting all 3..
After adult Franklin gathers young Franklin's power, he manages to easily destroy one of the mad Celestials. He then realizes that he alone cannot defeat the remaining two, so he resurrects Galactus. Galactus shows up and effortlessly kills one of the Celestials himself, and blasts a hole in the final one. A now unamped Franklin preforms a kamikaze attack on the final Celestial, subsequently destroying himself and it in the process.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
erm..did i download a wrong comic here..cuz the one i read..what i said is what happen..in exact order..he didn't instantly kill one after he got the power..he kill the second one who attack him..am i rite here??
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Mar 15th, 2012 07:42 AM
