I would say on the whole Knight Fall is a better litmus test for stamina than Amazing Spider-man 500. Spider-man relived a few seconds of each fight before he jumped to the next. Peter was already complaining about being exhausted, and having slow reflexes in the very first fight he had to relive, so it's not that he wasn't getting tired or is stamina wasn't failing, he was running on fumes... he kept going on pure will power... because that's what super heroes do. Wolverine will be going 100% long after Spider-man starts to slow down, no question about it. If Spider-man comes at Wolverine exhausted, with his reflexes slowed, he gets put down.
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That's.. one hellova way to downplay a feat. Im sorry but I dont know what else to call it... Spider-man was already injured. Then he literally went through dozens (hundreds? thousands?) of battles against opponents (some of them much MUCH deadiler than an unarmed Wolverine) and he battled every single one of them for God knows how long. Dont just assume seconds, the time varied in every battle. Heck even if its just 15 seconds (which it wasnt) for every supervillain fight he's ever had EVEN THEN itd still mean he fought for days. What is that if not a display of stamina? To say that Spider-man will get exausted from fighting Logan faster than one of them gets koed is wishfull thinking. Logan has fought OR for a long period of time. Spider-man fought (arguably) even longer than that. Against many different villains and did great. And now we're just supposed to assume he's going to get exausted from only one battle and somehow there's no question about it? Sorry, but that sounds like a biased opinion and I disagree with it. And im talking classic Spidey.
As for the current ill wait untill we see more from him. Also i want to make sure other writers stay true to Slott's upgrade before I come to any conclusions. Because right now we dont how good of a combatant he is. We do know however that he's capable of sbitblitzing 4 supervillains who all have spider powers and we know his training made him >>> an upgraded Kain speed-wise. In other words >>>> his old self.
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Last edited by SamZED on Mar 21st, 2012 at 09:16 PM
It was accurate assessment of the feat you referenced. You can blow it up and pretend it was more than it was if you'd like, playing it up like relived the entirety of every fight he ever had, but what we where actually shown on panel is Spider-man very briefly reliving some past battles before shuffling forward to a new one. That's not an assuming... that's what happened. Why should I assume - like you do apparently - that the fights from the montage splash page lasted longer than the ones the writer actually decided to detail? We were shown with the effects of the time travel gauntlet was, and it was a few seconds of combat and then off to the next one... and Spider-man was complaining about being slow and tired the moment it started. Batman went days without sleep during Knightfall, and I think it a more impressive feat of stamina than Amazing Spider-man 500.
After some sustained combat Spider-man will start to slow down (assuming Wolverine hasn't already put Parker to sleep, which is a distinct possibility), but Wolverine won't. That's how stamina factors in. Spider-man isn't going to pass out from exhaustion, no one said or even implied that he would, but he will start to slow down before Wolverine does, and once that happens, once the lactic acid starts to build up in his muscles and has cardio starts to go the end result will be Wolverine will land more hits... which will eventually put Pete down. So whoever said Spider-man doesn't have the cardio to beat Wolverine is right.
Every member of the Avengers beat dozens of Spider powered people during Spider-Island... they were practically AIM level fodder.
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Yeah, not your first "accurate assessment" aimed at downplaying other characters. Despite your.. lets call it a "unique perspective" for the lack of better words .. what was ACTUALLY show is Spider-man not just going through random battles he had in the past. He was re-living his entire superhero career and it was pretty clear. He started with with his first encounter with Vulture and the school fight with Sandman. Those are ASM #2 and #4 iirc. Then to his first battle with Electro. In the later pages we see him fight Electro once again. So it wasnt just one fight per villain, he fought the Green Golbin several times, had to try and save Gwen again, re-live his battle with Morlun. He even had to lift that hugeass chunk of metal, one of his most well-know lifting feats when he was trying to save Aunt May. Last time it took him an hour (like two issues) to lift that thing and the attempt almost killed him. This time it was just ONE of the many things he's done. He then fought the Hulk, there's a page that shows him fighting more characters than you can count. The whole story was clearly showing him re-living his ENTIRE superhero career. At least its clear for anyone who's been following his entire career. And you can only speculate how long each fight lasted. Again, the time varied in every battle, in some of the fights he had to just hold his own, in others he had to win in order to go further and that was shown on-panel. Just like when he fought Electro and had to lift that chunk of metal - he didnt go further in time until he won and performed the lifting feat. How many other fights out of the hundreds he actually had to win to go further? And how many feats to re-live? We can only guess but no matter how you look at it, no matter how you try to spin this in Wolverine's favor you can't prove he has a better stamina. That feat alone shows that Spider-man can fight for as long as it takes. And even in that state he didn't fight some nobodies. He fought Venom, Carnage, Hulk etc etc non-stop for what seems to be days (although we cant tell as he was stranded in time). But nevermind all that, now fighting an unarmed Wolverine will be the ultimate test of his stamina...
Yeah, stamina factor that doesnt exist. But there are factors that do exist. Like speed/agility/strength advantages Spider-man has. While I admit Logan stands a much better chance of tagging Spider-man with his fists than he does with his claws, Pete is the one who'll be landing most of the hits. And concidering they're class 20 punches/kicks/pressurepoint attacks Logan will be knocked out long before Pete gets tired. And unlike the graveyard fight Logan wont be taking these (PIS free/CIS free) class 20 attacks with a smile.
Avengers had trouble fighting them, and they were ordinary humans who gained spider powers. The ones Spider-man spitblitzed were already supervillains before the spier island. Pete even commented there's a huge difference between beating up some random thugs with spider powers and actual supervillains with spider powers. And yet, he put all of them down with pressurepoint attacks before any of them could blink. Also what about Kain? He's also a cannon fodder? He already has Spider-man's stats that were upgraded more. Spider-man beat the livving crap outta him the second his spider sense kicked nack in. Speedblitzed him before Kain could do anything about it.
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Last edited by SamZED on Mar 22nd, 2012 at 03:25 AM
Buddy the narrative jumps from Amazing Spider-man 33 all the way to the Amazing Fantasy 122 in one time skip. That is not Spider-man "re-living his entire superhero career" as you claimed it was, that is a gab of 90 issues. Even the first few fights he relived, which did happen to coincide with the first few issues of Amazing Spider-man, were not in order. You originally claimed Spider-man relived every fight he every had one after another without rest, and if that isn't an blatant lie it is - at the very least - INCREDIBLY disingenuous. You have an agenda and you are letting your agenda colour your opinion of what happened in that issue. Your statement was (and is) incredibly misleading, Spider-man relived a few seconds of each fight and then jumped to the next event... hell he didn't even fight Mysterio before he jumped unto the Hulk. One of the jumps was just him talking to Betty Brant for a few seconds! I'm not "downplaying" the feat, you are over hyping it to an INSANE degree, which is obvious to anyone who has read the issue you are talking about.
No that is exactly what will happen. Wolverine will shrug off everything Pete throws at him with a smile on his face.
He took down White Rabbit, Chance and Scorcher. Wow.
Because those Z String "super villains" are a huge step up from random civies?
Kaine had Spider-man pinned on a cat walk hanging over a giant vat of plot device. Spider-man's spider-sense kicked back in and he hit Kaine twice and knocked him of the cat walk into that giant vat of plot device... Awesome? Stop exaggerating every little thing why don't ya? You are making yourself look bad.
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He charged Ragarok before he could react... how would you describe it? Dude is even shown stationary for multiple panels more than once during the exchange while Wolverine is implementing his attack.
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Let's not forget when Spidey went for two days straight fighting crime all over the city when Jameson first took the office of mayor. He didn't even realize he'd been going for so long, said he was still full of energy.
And then during Fear Itself when he was going non-stop for over three days, fighting crime, saving civilians, oh, and fighting a hammered-up Thing and not letting up.
I'm not arguing that Spidey has better stamina than Wolverine. That would be dumb. All I'm saying is that in a fight under these parameters, I don't believe stamina will play much of a role. Whatever the outcome, I don't believe the fight will last long enough for either combatant to actually become fatigued.
Someone should write Marvel a letter and ask to re-print ASM #500 but this time make it a special addition for special fans. Because we all know that the only way to show a character relive his entire superhero career is - shove every fight he's ever had into one issue.
And here I thought that showing the beginning of his career and the end of his career as well as most of the major events in between plus a giant 2 page pannel of him fighting endless battles should be enough for any reader to grasp what's going on. Guess it isnt. Sad. But not my problem. And I never said it happened in a perfect chronological order, Im perfectly aware it didnt because the fight with Sandman happened after the fight with Vulture. "One after another" means without rest.
Ill repeat myself, he didnt go further in time until he defeated Electro. He didnt go further in time until he lifted that giant chunk of metal. In fact it seemed that every next step is longer than the previous one while you choose to speculate about seconds. Thats how things are - we know he sometimes got pulled out of time before the fight ended, we know other fights he had to win in order to get further. We know he was "reliving his timeline" (as stated on panel by Doc Strange) and we know he went though hudreds of battles even had to fight some villains more than once. Now pay attention here - even if we assume that he only had to win a small percentage of all those fights and repeat a small percentage of the lifting feats and all the other things he’s done.. even THEN.. even then it means he was fighting for days. Which proves that he has insane stamina.. and which brings us back to my earlier statement.. that his stamina is comparable to Wolverine’s and one has to be high to assume he’ll get exhausted from fighting an unarmed Wolverine.
You're the one with agenda here, Srank. Because for years you've been telling yourself that Wolverine definitely has better stamina and now that you see a feat that impugns it your natural response it to lowball the feat. Why would I have an agenda? My first post said "Logan probably has better stamina". See? I was willing to accept that EVEN THOUGH proofs to the contrary exist. Then you went ahead and started to lowball Spider-man. You still do, like with Kaine and spider-powered villains, you're the one who's making himself look bad with comments like that. At leat READ the issue next time. Vet had nothing to do with the speed he displayed and speed is what I was talking about. Spider-man speedblitzed Kaine even before the spider sense kicked in. He then did it again after it kicked in. And yes he then knocked him into the chemicals, and? How does that change the fact he speedblitzed Kaine twice in the same fight? As for “z listers”, you say as if it changes the fact they all had spider-man’s stats. Pete took them all down in a blinkn, Wolverine cant say the same for himself. Besides and we all know how Z listers are useless, don’t we? I mean, it would be so embarrassing to get your ass handed to you by a Z list combatant.. like I don’t know.. just throwing a random name here.. Mole Man? Who is so well-know for his martial arts skills, right? See? Two can play his game.
Srank, if that comment about Logan smiling is serious then I’ll lose any respect I had for you as a poster. Here I thought KMC rules say “characters at their best” unless of course you’re trying to convince me that the punches Spider-man threw in that issue are his “best”? Because iirc they couldn’t even shatter a tombstone. Hell an all out punch only managed to bring a slow and painful death (lol) to an ordinary woman. That’s as far from Spider-man’s best as it gets. Wlverine didn’t smile when Pete punched him in their later encounter and he can’t “shrug off” everything Pete throws at him. In fact few dozen of well executed combos woill be enough to knock Wolverine out.
Srank no offense but you use this sentence pretty often - "obvious to everyone who read etc".. and it usually ends with "everyone" telling you that the opposite of what you claim is true. And this is just another example.
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Last edited by SamZED on Mar 22nd, 2012 at 03:18 PM
Or... you know... the writer could have stated it in the narration? Or shown it in the art instead of having Spider-man jump haphazardly to different events out of sequential order that were almost a 100 issues apart in some cases?
I'm not low balling the feat, you however were purposely embellishing it and leaving out details... so I corrected you. What you said is that he relived all the fights from is past. He didn't. He relived small sections of some of his fights... and that is a HUGE difference from what you said. What was shown, on panel, is Spider-man being forced to relive a few seconds of some fights / events from his past, before jumping to the next one. That is not my opinion, that is an objective fact.
Days? Where are you getting that number from? Lets say conservatively there is 130 fights represented on the splash page (30 in the foreground and 100 in the back ground), so we end up with 139 once we included the original 9 that are shown in detail. Then lets say that each of those jumps lasted on average a minute (which is overly generous, I'm thinking 15-30 seconds tops), and that each one of the 139 fights represents another 10 that took place of panel. That's 23 hours. And I think that even that is a stretch.
He didn't blitz Kaine, and least not on the part you are talking about. I suppose maybe you could say he did in the initial panel when he was Nightwinging across the page... but that isn't an argument I'd make as the narrative clearly stats that Kaine is faster than Spider-man on that very page. Not to mention Kaine basically one shots him after saying he's seen all the moves Spider-man was bragging about. I never said Vet had anything to do with anything. I said Scorcher, Chance and White Rabbit were Z String nobodies that barely register as a threat. They aren't even Shocker level villains... remind me... did Spider-man effortlessly blitz Spider-Shocker? No... no he didn't. I have to day, I do think it is a amusing that you are accusing me of low balling for pointing out the context you conveniently forget to mention every time you start singing Spider-man's praise.
And unfortunately for Spider-man, Wolverine is at his best too. Logan can eat punches from the Hulk. Hulk is like 50 thousand times stronger than Spider-man, it would literally take Spider-man all day to even start accumulating the same level of damage Hulk slings with a single blow. Even if Wolverine was only capable of taking on blow from the Hulk before going down (which we know is not the case), his damage soak would still be too much for a Spider-man caliber opponent.
FYI Each one of Spider-man's punches in Hide Tide were stated as being able to level cars.
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Mar 21st, 2012 08:07 PM
Someone should write Marvel a letter and ask to re-print ASM #500 but this time make it a special addition for special fans. Because we all know that the only way to show a character relive his entire superhero career is - shove every fight he's ever had into one issue. 
