Parents bring up their children with the morals they believe in. But when their children are adults it's up to them what they believe in.
I have 2 cousins who don't believe in Religion. No one can force them to believe otherwise.
And what about Sharia law??
Your talking about Afghanistan? What that's supposed to be a good representation of Islam as a Religion now? Please. At least find educated Muslims to give examples of!
Last edited by Darth Thor on Jul 9th, 2012 at 02:26 PM
Jewish women without the head cover had their hair shaved as a punishment.
Women who covered their faces were considered to be prostitutes (at least in Biblical times).
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في هذا العالم ثلاثة أشخاص أفسدوا البشرية : راعي غنم , طبيب و راكب الجمال , و راكب الجمال هو أسوأ نشال و أسوأ مشعوذ بين الثلاثة
It's irrelevant what Al Qaradawi quoted. I asked you to read a hadith which speaks of the circumstances of this revelation and what it actually means. Al Qaradawi is irrelevant because he's neither al Bukhari, nor Imam Muslim, nor Abu Dawud, nor Al Tabari nor bin Kathir...everything he knows came from those people. If you don't understand any of the Qur'an, the best bet is to read the tafsirs.
The problem with Muslims and their apologetics is that they simply do not like what Al Tabari or bin Kathir wrote about the Qur'an in the light of westerners being repulsed by it, so they scrap the barrel from modern ''scholars'' just to keep up with the taqqiya.
Qaradawi is a repulsive man in any case, as are his ideas.
You can't go around picking and choosing what you like to please the westerners. Keep it consistent. And read the circumstances of the revelation of that verse.
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في هذا العالم ثلاثة أشخاص أفسدوا البشرية : راعي غنم , طبيب و راكب الجمال , و راكب الجمال هو أسوأ نشال و أسوأ مشعوذ بين الثلاثة
Though it's all well and good to read verses and their accompanying Hadiths yourself, it's best to have a Scholar who has spent his life studying Islamic sciences guiding you when attempting to interpret random verses and Hadiths.
I have noticed a lot of the anti-Islam movement tend to cling a a specific group of Verses and Hadiths that can easily be interpreted out of context, without actually going through the whole Quran and all Hadiths and studying Islam as a science. And pretty much ignoring the works of modern day scholars who have done such.
Well yes Quaradawi does have some dodgy "political" views but his knowledge of the Religion is sound. Like I said his education at the Al-Azhr University is peerless. Much more so than Mr. Robert Spencer Lol.
The fact that he has political views that do seem "repulsive" to you and many in the West, actually proves he is not an apologist.
Ah yes Al-Tabari. Another source the anti-Islam movement loves to quote since he made a collection of all Hadiths whether they were sound or not, therefore making his work a very easy target to try and attack Islam on.
Ibn Kathir is a better source. Of course again his work has to be read in the context of the situation and times he's talking about.
These people are not around to answer back to your accusations. However the Muslim Scholars who have spent their lives studying the works of these people and all Islamic sources you do not want to listen to.
Tariq Ramadan for instance would tell you that 3 of Muhammad's(pbuh) companions reverted from Islam in the early days. One of them never reverted back even when Muhammad (pbuh) was "powerful".. Yet Muhammad did nothing.
As for the topic of the thread, the command for Hijab came very late in his Porphethood. Women were walking around semi-naked under his rule, yet he allowed that. And you won't be able to find me an example of where Muhammad(pbuh) scolded a woman for not wearing enough and commaned her to go dress up that instant.
That's funny, because that's pretty much what the anti-Islam crew does, stick to a handful of Verses and Hadiths instead of studying the Religion as a whole.
I suggest you read Muhammad's(pbuh) Last Sermon very carefully. Since it was his final Sermon so obviously was not abrogated.
As a quick summary for you it teaches us not to hurt others, to be good to women. Reminds us that we have rights over women, but they also have rights over us.
And it clearly states that a white is not better than a black nor vice versa, and an arab not better than a non-arab nor vice versa.
Read the beauty of these teachings of equality between Men, Women, Blacks and Whites stated 1400 years ago! And bear in mind it was his Final Sermon so a good summary of the Religion.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Jul 10th, 2012 at 01:35 PM
I am happy for your cousins that they have freedom of choice. But it is fact that in a lot of families such freedom is not given, especially, when we talk about women.
I find it strange that you started arguing with me, who disagreed with ennin's views, which portray Islam in bad way.
It doesn't matter whether it is good or bad examples. The fact is that such things happen all over the world. Even in London not a single time honor killings happened because of the same seemingly trivial issues.
I respect the way you believe, we need more people like that, however, people like ennin keep promoting oppression, killing and sharia law, which gives Islam bad reputation.
It's simply the fault of the families. I certainly would not treat my family in such a way. The asian culture in general has a history of unfair treatment to women tbh. But I think it's easier to target religion on these matters. If the family happen to be muslim they may very well claim it's in their religion to justify what they want to do.
Hey I'll address anyone I disagree with. My first or second post on this thread was addressed to Ennin.
But now his posts just seem to be long, a bit weird and without an actual purpose. He seems to like preaching.
Believe you me honor killings have nothing to do with religion. Some asian dad just goes crazy when he catches his daughter in bed with a black guy. I promise you he's not thinking "Hmm what does my Religion say about this.." when he does that.
To be fair I don't think he's promoting oppression. He just says he believes in Sharia and that Hijab should be forced on a girl when she chooses to call herself a Muslim. Bit of a contradiction there if you just read it.
I think that's what he's saying, but I don't agree with his stance at all.
Many muslims are not very well educated in their Religion and history of their Religion at all. They will just quote random verses from the Quran kind of like lil bitchiness has been doing, instead of looking at the Faith as a whole, and studying the spiritual side and trying to understand the intention of the message.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Jul 10th, 2012 at 04:02 PM
Attention to the application of laws set by humans
As for the laws of God
Find high voices and objections
I can see clearly
You say to the Muslims
Do not apply the limits of Allah in the Holy Qur'an and the Hadith
Any person who is on the whims do not care about the words of God
But
I'll tell you
Muslims can not be just like Christians or Jews
And invent a religion interpolated
Appropriate to the whims of personal
In the end
Everyone will die and meet God face to face
What will you say?
And you know the truth!!!!!
(46) And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.
(47) And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.
(49) And judge, [O Muammad], between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away – then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient.
(50) Then is it the judgement of [the time of] ignorance they desire? But who is better than Allah in judgement for a people who are certain [in faith].
The limits of God
Application and implementation
Not for discussion
229) These are the limits ordained by Allah, so do not transgress them. And whoever transgresses the limits ordained by Allah, then such are the Zalimun (wrong-doers, etc.).
-The problem is not the correct understanding of Islamic law
And also the misuse of Islamic law
Islam is innocent of that
The proof of this
Can not anyone to convert to Islam under duress
But
Convert to Islam willingly
Always wrong to be in the confusion between the curriculum and the application of the curriculum
Approach and the teachings of Islam is beautiful and very cool
I feel very happy when the correct application
Therefore, I find my life and function with a moderation and purity and cleanliness
Because I know a good approach to Islamic law
This is the difference between scientists and ignorant
This is not example of freewill in Islam.
Leave Islam willingly and get killed for that.
It's a blatant trap. You are free to get in but can't leave.
And in this scenario dad gets so crazy that kills his own daughter?
The problem is that Islam originates from Asia and is a direct product of their culture. Thanks to other cultures that managed to tone it down.
Another problem is that majority of scholars support extreme measures:
Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ردة riddah, literally means: "relapse/regress" but usually translates to "apostasy", or ارتداد irtidād) is commonly defined in Islam as the rejection in word or deed of one's former religion (apostasy) by a person who was previously a follower of Islam. The Qur'an itself does not prescribe any earthly punishment for apostasy; Islamic scholarship differs on its punishment, ranging from execution – based on an interpretation of certain hadiths – to no punishment at all as long as they "do not work against the Muslim society or nation."[1] The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind.[2][3][4] Several contemporary Muslim scholars, including influential Islamic reformers have rejected this, arguing for religious freedom instead.[5][3][6][7] According to Islamic law apostasy is identified by a list of actions such as conversion to another religion, denying the existence of God, rejecting the prophets, mocking God or the prophets, idol worship, rejecting the sharia, or permitting behavior that is forbidden by the sharia, such as adultery.[8]
This is just a wikipedia statement, which you could argue to be wrong. But fact stands that in majority countries, where Islam is the main religion, freewill is poorly exercised.
And don't get me wrong. I am not saying that this religion is bad. It just has its problems and flaws like all other religions.
And very unfortunately majority of people or at least scholars don't give Islam mild interpretation like you.
Yep. But like I said I promise it's nothing to do with his religion. It's his own personal feelings that makes one do that. As disgusting as it is. But there's no way you could find me anywhere that the Quran or Islam has instructed him to do so.
It originates in the Middle East. The asian culture has actually polluted the religion a lot. For instance a lot of asian muslims have their own castes and give it a religous significance. Whilst in Islam there are no catses. We were told by Muhammad(pbuh) 1400 years ago that a White is not better than a Black and Vice versa. That an arab is not better than a non-arab and vice verse.
Lol It's not my personal "mild" interpretation though. That's what I'm trying to say. It is the interpretation of Scholars that I'm following. People like Tariq Ramadan and Humza Yusuf (who are actually western scholars but have both studied under the most learned middle eastern scholars).
In fact I'd say any major Scholar would give a similar interpretation.
As for the wiki quote I'm going to suggest that it's not the majority of scholars who say that, but the majority of Imams. Anyone can be an Imam at the local mosque. That doesn't take much education at all.
But still it shows there is a problem of some influential muslims still being closed minded, extreme and uneducated in the faith they are so keen on preaching.
That's neither here or there. It's not like these countries would be democracies without the religon. They'd still be dictatorships with death banishments.
Because there's absolutely no connection to their oppression and Islamic teachings.
And the majority of the dictators who have been in that region Saddam Hussain, President Mubarak, Colonel Gaddafi, Musharaf e.t.c e.t.c were all secular anyway. None of them were Islamists. So I'm not sure where this supposed evidence of Islam making that region oppressing dictators is coming from.
P.s. There's a well known Muslim Hadith stating: "Help your brother whether he's the Oppressor or the Oppressed.." Then someone asks "How do you help him if he's the Oppressor?" Response was "Stop him."
Well, there is. They execute for abandoning religion, adultery and other crimes against religion. Sharia law is designed to make people to be religious on first place, whether they want or not.
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Jul 9th, 2012 02:22 PM
