This. People need to realize this. If they were FPSSJs, they would have been in a constant state of being powered up as a SSJ. They were not. Additionally, the difference between FPSSJ and just SSJ is absurd. And Broly Second Coming film does not depict a SSJ2 Gohan like the writers say. They failed. What actually happened is they forgot about SSJ2 Gohan at the Cell games, made Gohan just a regular SSJ (not FPSSJ) and then later realized they forgot about stuff so they just claimed it was a SSJ2 Gohan. SSJ Gohan in Broly: Second Coming was not even as strong as his FPSSJ self at the cell games, much less as powerful as his SSJ2 form at the Cell Games. Else he would have toyed with and utterly destroyed Broly.
I call bullshit on your entire statement Dadudemon.
The timing of the 1st Broly movie was such that it had to occur after Goku and Gohan finished in the Time Chamber. Why? because otherwise Gohan would not have his SSJ power AT ALL!
And your nitpic about Gohan in the 2nd movie is also easily proven false
First off, here is a picture of adult Gohan as an ordinary SSJ iin that movie: (please log in to view the image)
And here he is as an SSJ2: (please log in to view the image)
And just for comparisons... Gohan at the World tournament also going SSj2 for Kabito: (please log in to view the image)
Interesting... I would say that yes, he was an actual SSJ2 when he fought Broly, and no, your claim that a Teen gohan would mop up Broly is also complete bullshit, because even when he WAS FPSSJ against Broly in the 1st movie, he got utterly as rapestomped as everyone else did.
Gohan thru his body in front of Vegeta to protect him. There was no thought involved.
Ummm no....
Yes it is. I think i pretty much said so earlier. Im not saying Cell wasn't much more powerful im just saying he might not have been on SSJ2 Gohan's level. SSJ3 Gotenks was weaker than Super Buu but still gave him hell and would have killed him if not for his regen
Right, because Gohan reacts like a self sacrificing moose every other time soemthing like that happened before, amirite? oh wait... He froze against Nappa, he failed several times to save Krilin against Frieza...
There is a very real problem with this logic train Jugs, If Gohan was infact more powerful than SP Cell was before tanking that hit, he would have reacted faster than SP Cell and actually deflected the attack, or got Vegeta away. The fact is, he would have seen the attack coming before anyone else would have and would have known how to counteract it. He didn't, and he also misjudged Cell's power, and was down an arm because of it.
Your entire point was that weaker characters can sometimes inflict lethal or debilitating damage. What you are failing to understand is that this method only works in very specific techniques and in very specific circumstances. The Kienzan was a prime example of this, but as I demonstrated, when the power gap widens enough, even trump cards like this can easily be flicked aside.
Ahahahahaaa! No. As I said, there is no basis for this claim. SP Cell was overwhelming SSJ2 Gohan, and the others for the vast majority of the time, and it wasn't until Gohan's rage boost tipped the scale, plus add in the Z-Fighters distractions...
Also, Pure Super Buu was toying with SSJ3 Gotenks until Mystic Gohan arrived and flat screwed him over. Buu turned the tables on Gohan when he absorbed Gotenks and Piccolo.
__________________
"I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds..."
Last edited by Darkstorm Zero on Dec 5th, 2012 at 02:24 PM
And I call bullsh*t on anything you post that contradicts me because it will be wrong. That is how awesome I am.
Point 1:
Wrong. The timing of the movie is such that Gohan had just reached SSJ powers while in the HBTC. The movie just pulled that current level of Goku and Gohan (about 3 months into their HBTC training). If it were after their HBTC training session, they would have been in a constant SSJ state: they were not. Therefore, you're wrong, I am right.
Point #2:
You know what I see? I see the same exact state in all pictures which all came from the anime.
Here is actually what SSJ2 Gohan looks like:
(please log in to view the image)
And here's the canon version of SSJ2 Gohan:
(please log in to view the image)
Notice the lack of lightning from the supposed SSJ2 Gohan from Broly: Second Coming?
Notice the presence of lightning in Gohan's SSJ2 State at the Budokai, here:
(please log in to view the image)
And yet, even your own images contradict that. There was no difference between SSJ Gohan and the supposed SSJ2 Gohan in Second Coming.
Notice the difference in power between a FPSSJ Goku and SSJ2 Gohan against Cell. Keep in mind that FPSSJ is vastly more powerful than the HBTC trained Vegeta and Trunks. Keep in mind that those same versions of Vegeta and Trunks were manhandled by Perfect Cell with ease. Yet, Trunks was able to take several hits from Broly.
Clearly, that same version of Trunks that fought both Movie 8 Broly and Perfect Cell is closer in power to Broly than he was Perfect Cell.
Therefore, you logic is wrong, your arguments are wrong, points 1 and 2 show this, and SSJ2 Gohan (that fought Cell) would manhandle Broly before Broly had a chance to continually power up.
Please enjoy this pwn. I have more if you wish to be embarrassed by the mighty dadudemon, again.
Don't try to rub your ignorance and arrogance in my face, you will find that I am not so easy to intimidate as the lesser mortals you usually try to wipe out.
Your making excuses to cover your own ass. The broly situation happens after they exited the time chamber, during the week leading to the Cell Games. You can try to spin it however way you want, but facts are facts. And they only have a single real day in the chamber, not 3 or 4. (the time it would take to get to New Vegeta and back as they ended up flying home in the ship.)
Ah yes... The ever present argument of the lack of lightning... How precious you are.
I swear, people don't even look at the actual physical differences bitween forms anymore.
Look again Daduderp, the 1st of my pictures shows a normal SSj1 state, right? right. Now, look at the 2nd one. Besides the aura and lack of "sparks" do you notice any actual physical differences? I do. the 2nd one has larger muscle tone, sharper features, his eyes are narrower, and he has but a single bang over his face, wereas the SSJ1 pic had 2, was thinner, and not as sharp in the lines. Now, if you read the destinguishing characteristics of an SSJ2, you would find that these characteristics pretty much fit the actual physical descriptors to a T. An SSJ2 does not always have to have the lightning in the aura for it to be an SSJ2, even SSj3's don't always have lightning going off...
Oh, and very nice job on using a Gohan from a different timeperiod I'm using to make a point, that earns you 0 points on the paying attention meter.
If that was your best argument Dadude, you are very much out of your depth.
Look again, I just explained this.
Riiiight.... Murai trunks would have manhandled Cell if not for the decrease in speed. Cell himself confirms this. Later as SP Cell, he oneshots Trunks purely because he fired from behind cover and took everyone by suprise.
You seem to forget that broly was physically manhandling all of these guys while actually wading through everything they threw at him. Cell? Less so.
This is being ignored as ignorant blathering diatribe.
You have yet to own your own cornflakes "Dude", you could never own me.
__________________
"I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds..."
Last edited by Darkstorm Zero on Dec 5th, 2012 at 03:00 PM
If you watch both the show and the movie, Broly was only Ultra ssj level (the appearance of Vegeta and trunks when they get all bluky). So Broly wasn't even able to master the weakness of an ascended ssj form, which is the level displayed by Goku (staying ssj during his training and then powering up to it's strongest level) and Cell. Cell wins the fight, and if it's Cell in his ssj2 form, the appearance of electricity surround him, he'll win easy. It's self explanatory if you watch both the show and the movie.
Gohan isn't the fighting genius his father is. Just because Goku would have thought to do that doesn't mean Gohan always thinks like a warrior. He was a child. Children often make rash choices without thinking them thru. And Gohan being scared of Nappa doesn't really apply here since he wasn't scared. And he was also crazy weaker than Frieza.
This couldn't be one of those times? It's been proven that even if you are slightly weaker you can seriously hurt your slightly stronger opponent or even kill them. I think this is the case
I know i have no proof which is why i've been presenting this as my opinion. Basically Gohan and Cell are in their Kamehameha battle and Gohan is losing. Goku tells Gohan that he is holding back and to cut it out. Cell gets distracted and Gohan cuts loose killing Cell right?
To me that sounds like "Hey Gohan, you think you're only at half strength but really you're just actively not using your full power." Gohan then uses his full power and kills Cell. It didn't really seem like a boost to me as much as Gohan just using his power
I know. Im just saying how slightly weaker ppl can harm/kill stronger ppl
Do people even bloody read anymore? I just went over this with a fine toothed comb!
Broly's LSSJ form has nothing to do with ordinary SSJ forms outside of requiring going through the 1st stage to acheive it. He is NOT a USSJ at all! His speed isn;t hampered by his bulk or anything like that, his energy formation is different, his power color is different, his eyes are different... they are nothing alike besides in actual physical size. I mean Broly wasn't covered in veins poping out everywere either...
He was also stronger, faster, had better reflexes and had more raw ower than Goku did at that time, Piccolo mentions this explicitly. The only thing he misjudged was how much power Cell put into that Death beam.
No, Because Cell was overwhelming them constantly until "rage" happened. And to top it off, Gohan had to push Cell''s Solar Kamehameha back before his own struck Cell in the first place. Cell would have wiped a fully prepared Gohan out in 2 moves, a feat he could not have replicated before his Zenkai. This alone should prove that Cell was bolstered enough to surpass SSJ2 Gohan without rage boosting.
It was less about cutting loose and more about drawing on that rage power. he could not have overwhelmed Cell without it. Remember, Goku had to get gohan to open up 3 times before he tapped that spark at the end, and every time before that, Cell kept pushing back harder.
One simply cannot tap into the half that was lost, if it ever really was lot in the first place. Gohan was giving everything he had, Goku simply forced him to tap that "rage" power they discovered in the Time Chamber again. There really is no other way it could have played out.
Not nessisarily. Even the dumbass Recoome copped a few superficial injuries during his fight with Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan, and even then the only lasting injury he had was that he blew his own teeth out when he bit down on his own Eraser Gun from having Krillin kick him in the back of the head. Well, you saw how well that turned out for Krillin and Gohan...
You were mistaken: you should not have replied to my post. There was no reply that could possibly have made you correct. Your post is nothing but hot air, at this point. No response is needed from me: you were soundly destroyed. Drop the ego and admit you were wrong: there is no shame in it.
Correction: My arrogance but your ignorance.
Incorrect: please see Point #1 again for why you are wrong.
Using only the physical appearance of the person did nothing to prove your point: please see point #2 for why you are wrong.
Incorrect: Cell did not admit that. It was only power that exceeded Cell's, not that Trunks could have "manhandled" him.
And yet, they were not one-shotted like Cell could do against stronger versions of Vegeta and Trunks. Remember, Vegeta and Trunks entered the HBTC a second time when they fought at the Cell Games.
You do not know the definition of "diatribe".
Then why is my name tattooed on your ass?
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Last edited by dadudemon on Dec 5th, 2012 at 04:04 PM
Dammit DDM i always find myself agreeing with you but you are wrong here brother. The time Gohan could go SSJ was after the year training him and Goku did and after that he was much stronger than Goku. And Vegeta and Trunks were at their post training levels
And Gohan was SSJ2 in Broly 2
He was still just a kid. With kid thought process and kid emotions and kid reactions. Him being stronger than Goku doesn't change that he doesn't have the fighting prowess his old man has
I meant before the struggle. If Cell had been slightly below Gohan couldn't he have injured Gohan? Lowering Gohan's power to well under Cell's new power? That's what i think happened
Do you happen to have a scan or some kind of reference? Im just remembering Goku telling Gohan he was holding back and that he needed to "let it all out" more or less
Yeah but they could hurt him. And a weaker Majin Vegeta could hurt a much stronger Fat Buu. If Buu couldn't regen he would have been seriously messed up and maybe have a body part disabled
Idk i just feel like Cell never actually made it to SSJ2 level but he was damn close. I realise you disagree but that's my thought
And this ladies and gentlemen, is a post from a dude who is incapable of refuting points beyond "No U!"
Congrats, I've never seen someone back out of a debate that fast before!
No correction is need by you. Both re your faults.
So, according to your wonky logic, Gohan and Goku came out of the HBTC for a little bit, despite knowing that they can only reenter the chamber 1 more time, and knowing they were on a tight ass schedule, to suddenly come back out just in time to catch Paragas's ship, fight Broly, spend days that they don't have flying back to Earth on an overcrowded spacepod... and then stroll back into the HBTC..... Because it's convenient to your case? GTFO!
Sorry, but no, you cannot handwaive legitimate evidence by returning back to an already shot down point.
Like I just bloody well stated... Trunk's speed was the deciding factor... It was the only reason he lost. Cell himself states this very clearly.
#1: They were not stronger.
#2: Broly wasn't doing killshots, he was physically mauling them to torture and toy with them. Watch the movie.
Hah, only according to your teeny squishy pink mind. Bu,t whatever helps you sleep at night bro.
Sorry mate, you hit that baboon, not me. Have fun with that....
__________________
"I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds..."
Last edited by Darkstorm Zero on Dec 5th, 2012 at 04:16 PM
I agree that that is true of canon Gohan. But the Gohan in movie 8 was a transferred Gohan of about 3 months into their HBTC. Here is why and he is non-canon.
"The timing of the movie is such that Gohan had just reached SSJ powers while in the HBTC. The movie just pulled that current level of Goku and Gohan (about 3 months into their HBTC training). If it were after their HBTC training session, they would have been in a constant SSJ state: they were not."
Lastly, I do agree that the peeps who made Movie 10 stated that Gohan was SSJ2. However, that was a "retcon" of a mistake they made. Nothing seen shows he was actually SSJ2 in that film. They goofed and backtracked to cover their mistake.
Glad you backed out because you suck so bad at what you think is "debating" that you were just repeating yourself. Most likely, you'll just get copy-paste replies, from now on. That is how bad you suck at this.
Maybe in this timeline/universe they just decided that holding the transformation was stupid. Or Chi-Chi made them cut it out. Or maybe they didn't think about it. I know the movie wasn't canon but they used them during the "10 day wait" and during the "10 day wait" they were uber powerful
Gohan knew who Broly was and what he could do. He almost killed Goten and Trunks. He knew he had to go all out. I agree that a mistake was made (lack of SSJ2 electricity) but i do believe they intended him to be SSJ2
They did not use them from that time period as Gohan was still his 'younger' appearing self but with a SSJ power-up. Also, the problem cannot be reconciled that they were not in the constant SSJ state.
The version of Gohan that you refer to was the one from Bojack unbound....sort of. That Gohan was the Gohan very shortly after the Cell Games.
As indicated by others in this thread, that Gohan was probably much closer to a FPSSJ than SSJ2, based on the canon feats. Additionally, the lack of lightning and the ultra-spikey/stiff hair also indicates that they failed to make Gohan, in Second Coming, resemble the reall SSJ2 Gohan state.
Also, one argument I have heard and partially agree with is the fact that Broli recovered from a mortal wound making him much stronger than when he fought the old crew from several years back.
And see? Even Jugger here gets some of what I'm saying.
Yes, but his reflexes means he would have seen that attack coming a mile away, and in his mind would have had enough time to actually react to it with a clear though, because he KNEW that shot would have killed vegeta if he didn't jump on it.
No, because pre resurrection, Cell was not that high, in fact, the jump biterrn FPSSJ and SSJ2 is quite steep, but not unreachable for Cell, as he later demonstrated with his Zenkai. A blast designed to kill an unconscious Vegeta would not have blown half of Gohan's power away, it simply doesn't work like that for such a small attack. I mean if this was the case, why would Cell go for a full powered Solar Kamehameha just to finish Gohan?
I never backed out, you simply stopped arguing and never replied.
Anyways, the only point you made that actually bears merit was the fact that Goku and Gohan were not constantly in SSJ mode in the movie. And while that may be true, there will be times when they were not in SSJ mode during the week leading to the Cell games, This would be especially true for Goku. Why? Because Goten was conceived during this time, and I don't imagine Chi Chi would be able to withstand her husband blowing his baby batter inside, when he could barely control a love pat on the back that sent the poor woman flying 40 meters out the door...
Wrong. It is a non-canon depiction of where the characters were at that time.
Watch this:
"So, according to your wonky logic, the Z-Team took a multiple day journey to the New Planet Vegeta, knowing full-well that they only had less than 10 days before the Cell Games started, then spent a couple of days on New Planet Vegeta, then saved the day, then took a multiple days journey back to earth, then had to re-enter the HBTC a second time to finish training to reach the FPSSJ state (because they had not yet reached that state) a second time,
1. which directly contradicts the canon version of events,
2. which directly contradicts the less than 10 days they had to prepare for the cell games,
3. which directly contradicts the "rest period" Goku said Gohan and he were taking for those 10 days,
4. which directly contradicts the also non-canon portrayal of events during that 10 day period as having taken place on earth,
5. which directly contradicts the physical appearance of Gohan in the canon portrayal of his appearance right after he finishes the entire year in the HBTC,
6. which directly contradicts Vegeta's and Trunk's ability to go ASSJ,
7. and which directly contradicts Trunks' ability to go USSJ. That is not even convenient, in your case. That is so contrived and forced that only an idiot would believe it took place during the 10 day wait period."
Of course you didn't get why you were wrong. Again:
Here's a hint: my point is not made with just "lightning".
Wrong. You said this: "Murai trunks would have manhandled Cell if not for the decrease in speed. Cell himself confirms this."
To which I replied: "Incorrect: Cell did not admit that. It was only power that exceeded Cell's, not that Trunks could have "manhandled" him."
#1: They were: they entered into the HBTC a second time. They also obtained an ASSJ state and trunks a USSJ state. None of those forms were seen in the movie.
#2: Nor was Cell. Yet Cell was more effective at taking down stronger versions of the same characters.
Shows how much you really know: I work overnights and sleep during the day. HA! I win, yet again!
You can lie all you want, but I'm not the one that sent me PMs of your ass, you did.
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Dec 5th, 2012 12:59 PM
