Well than do us all a favor and beat it as I have already proven to the scenario long time ago why croc is not fast and the scenario>you in debating so do not bother trying to make an argument out of an lost battle loser.
Why should I repeat myself to a sore loser who has come basically a month later to a debate I won against a debater much better than your pitiful self. Re read or leave you lazy moron not that it matters cuz there is nothing that you can say that I have not already countered.
Last edited by Rikudo sennin on Sep 21st, 2012 at 08:42 PM
Oh, jeez. Sorry, I completely forgot about this thread. Guess that happens when your life gets a little busy and then an all All Versus Forum pops up.
What's say we give it another go?
You keep saying fodder this, fodder that, fodder noticed when that really doesn't mean a thing. You are aware that Marineford fodder was able to track and hit Luffy, we both know this. Seriously, two different fodder marines landed blows on Luffy, and Luffy specifically noted that "everyone here is strong," paraphrased. It wasn't numbers, since Luffy's taken on much bigger crowds than just two or three guys. Further, "no evidence for not trying" is still a negative. The evidence, that Crocodile spoke before the attack, does indicate he spent at least a little while not attacking. Long enough for him to speak, and long enough to let others speak. You can't ignore that and keep saying he was moving his absolute fastest when he pretty evidently wasn't.
He wasn't really trying to destroy Yuba. Just terrorize it, right up until the final sandstorm, that is. Then again, the threat with Crocodile's sand isn't so much the amount as it is the dehydration power. Crocodile doesn't control nearly as much sand as Gaara, this is true. However, it does not really indicate the strength of the control, nor does it mean either can wrest control from the other. Just that if you pit Crocodile's sandstorm against Gaara's, Gaara will likely win. Is that all you wanted to prove? In term of sand, Gaara > Crocodile. In an actual fight? I'd say it goes the other way.
Any liquid does that, though. Hence why it's Crocodile's weakness: his sand adheres and he stays solid. Unless Gaara's sand is completely watertight acid very well can seep through, and the sand has shown a vulnerability that Crocodile can exploit. Not like it really matters, though.
Again, there's no way to tell since neither has shown an ability to wrest control of sand away from someone, though Gaara has had trouble against gold dust and oily water. There's also the fact that Crocodile rarely transforms his entire body into sand. It's usually just small parts, and then he can change back before Gaara can do much of anything. Crocodile's still faster than Gaara's sand.
Marineford fodder has feats to suggest they're faster than Gaara, though. Cannonballs + Mihawk means Crocodile is far faster, that's pretty much it. Still, why are you so focused on this one event? Crocodile shows he's faster both before and after attacking Whitebeard, and there's no real indication he's even trying to be fast. So even if you get Crcodile to seem slow here, he's still got better feats than Gaara. The Whitebeard attack changes nothing, even if you somehow prove he was going as fast as he could.
No he said himself he can't control how powerful his twisters are after a while so saying he wasn't trying to destroy is nothing as he can't even control the power in the twister by the time it makes it to yuba. Gaara>crocodile
Gold dust is not sand it is just gold powder which is why gaara could not control. And that is not even a good comparison cuz gaara beat his dad low diff. He is most of the time fully sand.
He could not even catch chopper and was spotted by marine fodder. Gaara was fast enough to switch places with a clone in mid air IN A SECOND. Crocodile is not fast enough and gaara's sand also has great reaction feats. He gets controlled and sealed.
Now, then. I'm afraid I'm not seeing where exactly Chopper is out-speeding Crocodile here. What I do see, is Chopper hiding in a crowd or alley and shapeshifting to a form Crocodile won't recognize. Speed isn't involved here, and this does not override either the cannonball or Mihawk. Why even bring it up?
EDIT: Whoops forgot address Luffy. Again, he notes that there are so many strong people at Marineford. Those guys that hit him were indeed nameless, special only by virtue of hitting Luffy. Still, Marineford is the elite of the elite in the Marines.
Yeah, because nature pretty much takes over by that point. Doesn't really change much about Crocodile's intention of sending sandstorms whenever he's bored. Yes, Gaara > Crcodile in sand control. You win?
Cool, didn't know that. Acid isn't water, and Gaara's sand still showed a vulnerability to seeping liquid unless you can prove no water was inside his sand there. I forget why we're talking about the acid, isn't the dehydration a bigger threat?
Not really my point. Gaara's sand mixed with the dust was too heavy for him to control. That indicates he has some trouble when there are other forces acting on his sand. Crocoile usually only turns his lower body or one limb to sand at a time. He almost never goes full sand.
And? Neither of those events override the cannonballs or Mihawk, nor are they actually legitimate speed feats. Crocodile's proven to be faster than both Gaara and his sand via the two feats you don't seem to acknowledge. Gaara gets blitzed and dehydrated?
I don't get why no one else uses mangareader?!
But ill use the other site if you need it.
He fully saw chopper and ran after a running chopper and was not fast enough to catch him before he transformed. He is not that fast clearly.
The ones that hit luffy were totally diff looking from the ones who are normal fodder and there were plenty at marineford. Just like enies lobby even though it is a important place it does not mean they put highly skilled marines in place of foot soldiers.
To summarize it is regardless of his intent he cannot control it's power and at full power it took many of them just to damage a very small town and over a long span of time. Those twisters are not really strong. They would never get though gaara's defence.
Um the only liquid that affected the sand is oil and the corrosive acid in the hook is not like that really. It would not be strong enough to corrode it's sand considering how strong it is. And the dehydration would not happen as croc can't get fast enough.
That is different as gold is siz times heavier and gaar was still able to oull his sand over his dads easily http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/547/12
That was something the SHUKAKU ITSELF was unable to do.
Crocodile would not be a problem.
Yet they show how slow he is? And gaara's sand has had amazing reaction feats and he was able to switch with a clone and hide underground himself in a instant while he was in mid air. that is fast. And that was part one gaara. Come on just admit it Gaara> Crocodile!
Trust me someone as disgusting a nemebro has that coming you have no idea how rude this twit is.
Thanks; who knows why, the site just doesn't work for me.
The sequence of events as I saw them: Crocodile sees Chopper, who he believes to be Mr. Prince, already a ways in front and in a crowd --> Robin stops Crocodile to talk to him, and Crocodile answers before flying off --> Chopper is by this point already around a corner and then back in his small hybrid form. Crocodile lost sight of him and Chopper put on a disguise. That's it, no speed involved.
Fodder is the guys Luffy's Conqueror Haki take out. Nearly everyone at Marineford stayed standing. The guys that saw Crocodile are Whitebeard Pirates, just because they are technically nameless "fodder," it does not mean they are weak, or slow. Again, guys were tagging Luffy there.
Who said they'd get through Gaara's defense? As I recall I argued them being either very distracting or a way for Crocodile to dehydrate Gaara with the sand.
The oil was stated to "seep in and destroy" Gaara's sand. The poisacid would do the same thing, being pretty much a liquid and Gaara's has no real feats against it.
I don't see why not. If Crocdile's got wind and such blowing everywhere, with sand that dehydrates Gaara as soon as it touches him I'm not sure how Gaara would deal with it. It isn't as if Gaara can actually hurt Crocodile in any way, even if he does control more sand.
The thing is, they don't. You're trying to counters examples of Crocodile trying to move fast with examples of Crocodile not trying to move fast and expecting that to prove something. Against Chopper, he paused to talk to Robin, and Chopper shapeshifted and hid. Against Whitebeard, he paused long enough to let Buggy and some Whitebeard Pirates see him and get some lines, and then he attacked. Neither of these really cancel out the fact that he casually intercepts cannon fire and blocked an attack from Mihawk, who is known to extremely fast.
I know the guy decently, seeing as he allows my insignificant speck of a form to post on the videogame vs forum he rules with a mighty velvet fist. Allow me to let you in on some super duper ultra top secret info. [SPOILER - highlight to read]: He's not all that serious.
Insults will never work, and just serve to get you banned.
Chopper was only a few meters away if crocodile was really fast he would have been able to easily catch him before he could go far enough to change without being obvious.
Luffy had no control over his haki back then and it did all sorts of stuff maybe he somehow only directed it at the executioners since he was focusing on them. Then again most of amazon lily was affected by it and im not sure if marine fodder>amazon lily citzens cuz they were all pretty strong. Regardless the fodder showed fodder level feats shown through out the entire series.
The people who hit luffy were not fodder.
They would not be as gaara can disperse or casually block them and his sand can easily react to slow crocodile.
Remember what I said corrosion and adhesion are to different things and the acid is more on the corrosion part which would do nothing to gaara's sand which took a explosion that would have destroyed sunagakure. Adhesion is his sands main problem which he would not have to worry from the hook.
Gaara's defense/mom would never let any sand from the opponent touch him if they knew he used sand. Gaara can easily control and seal him or if crocodile went human he would just outright stomp him.
He did not pause he was moving and started talking while still moving because he thought there was no way whitebeard could block him so he just wanted whitebeard to know at the last second when his hit was about to connect that it was crocodile who beat him.
Im pretty sure my version is right and it makes much more sense then stopping against the strongest man in the world to taunt him when every second counts. So crocodile is not fast. He was not faster then luffy without gear 2 yet your saying he has speed on par with someone much faster than g2 luffy really?
He is not fast end of story!
gaara can
-control him with his superior sand control
-seal him
-croc can't get out cuz his acid will not save him
-croc aint fast enough to do anything croc loses
A few meters away and already behind something. Crocodile stopped to talk to Robin, too, if you remember. More than enough time to transform, and honestly proves nothing. It isn't like Chopper is slow, either, since he's dodged gunfire before.
Not being in control actually means it's more likely that Luffy was hitting everyone, as Rayleigh stated he would require special training in order to prevent himself from hurting allies. That pretty much mean nearly everyone at Marineford was strong enough to resist it, putting them out of the "weakling fodder" you're trying to shoehorn them into. Again, fodder =/= weak. The Impel Down guys are nameless fodder, but people are scared of them for a reason.
Then neither were the guys who saw Crocodile.
Why are you ignoring Crocodile's speed feats?
Yes, they are very different things, which does not change the fact that the oil did both. It was explicitly stated to "seep in and destroy" Gaara's sand, which is why acid would work similarly. In addition, acid and explosions are two very different things as well. One is more chemical means and works on a smaller scale, and the other is pretty much brute force and possibly heat. Taking explosions means nothing against certain acids.
The thing is that Crocodile's shown to be fast enough to hit him anyway, and has shown the ability to dehydrate through sand and with sand. If anything Gaara's absolute defense and sand armor would be more of a hindrance than a help. Gaara can't control him,
Crocodile's too fast and can cancel it casually.
Panel 3: Crocodile behind Whitebeard
Panel 4: Pause long enough for Buggy to speak
Panel 5: Pause long enough for Whitebeard Pirates to speak
Panel 6: Crocodiles speaks, lines around his face indicate he's only started attacking now.
Do you disagree with this?
This is One Piece, what makes sense and what actually happens are not the same thing. The page indicates he did pause to taunt Whitebeard, and it did cost him chance just as you say it would. Once the actual attack started, it required Gear 2 Luffy to stop, not to mention the fact that Crocodile was keeping up with Mihawk, again on Gear 2 Luffy's level or above. Normal Luffy is still a bullet timer, and Crocodile has his own bullet timing feats.
Yes, Gaara's fast, we all know this. Crocodile's just faster. Take the above scan, for instance, where Gaara had to slow his opponent down in order for his sand to keep up. Gaara vs. Deidara may be the best because of the explosion, but it's still not really enough to take any One Piece top tier. Gaara vs. Lee just shows his sand unable to keep with Lee.
Unlikely, still.
-Crocodile can easily escape control or prevent himself from being controlled in the first place
-Fast opponents have escaped this, Crocodile is faster still.
-The acid isn't even that big of a deal, even though Gaara has no resistance feats
-Crocodile blitzes, since his speed feats are still better than Gaara's
He did not stop really as robin came and he was preparing to leave and he even started moving before she stopped talking. If he is fast then he should have caught him easily.
We are not sure how luffy's haki worked before training as it did all sorts of and the idea of these marine fodder being better than the amazons is not right.
At the end of the day he was seen by people much slower and weaker then gaara.
Im not they just are not good heck he could not even keep up with luffy pre gears so how is he as fast as mihawk?
The result of the adhesion makes it crumble which is why he said destroys because it fell apart and was no longer usable. Only adhesion will make it cave in on itself and therefore be "destroyed" not corrosion. And gaara countered the weakness with large amounts of sand not that it is needed as the acid won't do anything.
Does that make sense?
He is one mihawks speed level when he could not keep up with base luffy? Nice logic!
He is gonna turn back into a human where is is slower and weaker and much more vulnerable? Good luck with that!
Gaara's sand feats>croc's feats
Croc was spotted by fodder while part 1 gaara was able to move at incredible speeds himself.
No gaara's feats can handle crocodile who was spotted by fodder.
Crocodile is slow. He can't dehydrate gaara unless he touches him and that is impossible as he will be easily controlled with gaara's highly superior sand control. All of crocodile's attacks are weak and can't get past his defence. he will get sealed.
You do realize your version defies all logic?
He is facing the strongest pirate where every second counts and he stops to taunt him?
The fact is he was moving at his fastest speed and was booked end of story and he was talking while he was moving in as he was already so close to hitting him he thought saying who he was would not ruin it. I have the anime backing up my version you only have yourself. And the fact that you have presumed that it took g2 luffy to stop him is defying logic as he was not even faster then base luffy and ivankov and jinbe literally just stood there with the first one standing and smiling.
Fact is:
Gaara's control>>>Crocodile's control=
Crocodile being controlled or his attacks being dispersed
Crocodile is not fast=
Him getting easily captured
Crocodile's attacks are all weak=
Him never damaging gaara
His hook can't cause adhesion which is what made his sand crumble on itself and be "destroyed"+
Him being sealed quickly
And if he turns human he is 100% DOOMED as he is next to nothing without his fruit.
Are you just assuming Chopper (another known bullet timer) is slow for some reason? Crocodile still didn't give chase immediately, and Chopper was around a corner before he started. This is not even speed related. Nor does it counter any of Crocodile's other speed feats.
We have seen it activate multiple times before training. He typically knocked out all of the weaker people around, without regard for friend or foe. The Marineford example is exactly the same, and simply prove that all of the fighters there were too powerul to be affected. So in conclusion, Marineford fodder is still very powerful.
And? Being able to see someone isn't the same as being to stop their attacks. So Gaara will see Crocodile coming but will most likely be unable to do anything about it.
I honestly don't recall Luffy being faster than Crocodile during Alabasta. Crocodile just tends to take attacks or move slightly to one side. In any case, it doesn't really matter how, as Crocodile has kept up with Mihawk on panel.
Uh, what? "Adhesion" refers to surfaces sticking together, hence why tape or glue are adhesives. The sand shouldn't crumble in that case, so the reason there would be because it's being destroyed. The oil sticks to the sand (adhesion) and then seeps in and destroys it. Which does in fact, show a weakness to such things.
You seem to be repeating yourself an awful lot. I've already addressed this speed issue multiple times, why must we bring it so much in the same post? Crocodile is proven to be fast, his human form is what he blocked Mihawk in so he isn't slow in it, nor more vulnerable. Gaara's sand feats are > Crocodiles, yes, I've never denied this. It doesn't mean Gaara wins.
Again with the fodder, can we just contain that one paragraph rather than all of them? Now then, Crocodile has shown the ability to dehydrate people without touching them, and has done so through sand and rock, and once created a sandstorm that dehydrated several pirates casually. All Crocodile needs to do is touch the same sand Gaara is touching and it's over.
You do realize my version is what we actually see, is perfectly in character for Crocodile, and is a common thing with him? Yes, Crocodile has stopped in the middle of fights to taunt not only Whitebeard, but Mihawk and Doflamingo as well. He's stopped to talk to Jimbe and Akainu, too. Logically, it makes perfect sense for Crocodile to stop to taunt Whitebeard, because he stops to taunt everyone.
That he was moving his fastest speed is not a fact, it is an opinion of yours unless outright stated or shown. Perhaps we could also say that Crocodile was so fast he disappeared from Ivan and Jimbe's sight, and they could only see him when he slowed down. That also fits. As for the anime, no, it actually indicates that Crocodile wasn't trying to move fast at all. He just leisurely floated over to where Whitebeard was while talking, which is not what happened in the manga. As it stands, neither case has Crocodile moving as fast as he can.
Please, don't just repeat things you've said in the same post that are still under discussion. They are points, not facts, and we have yet to come to an agreement on them. However, my view in this is as follows:
"Gaara's control > Crocodile's control" = True, to an extent. This does not mean Crocodile can be controlled.
"Crocodile is not fast" = False. Crocodile's current speed feats against cannonballs and Mihawk prove he is extremely fast
"Crocodile's attacks are all weak" = False. Crocodile's strength is on par with Mihawk's, and he has shown attacks, such as dehydration, which Gaara can't defend against.
"His hook can't cause adhesion which is what made his sand crumble on itself and be 'destroyed'" = False. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. By this argument, Gaara's sand can be destroyed by causing it to stick together. The oil destroyed Gaara's sand, I see no reason acid could not do similar.
"And if he turns human he is 100% DOOMED as he is next to nothing without his fruit." = False. Crocodile blocked Mihawk without his his fruit and is shown to be fast without it. Further, Crocodile turning human does not prevent him from using his fruit.
"Crocodile is not fast." <-- This statement, in particular, is pretty clearly a lie given Crocodile's speed feats. Further, we are still in the process of going over these points, please do not assume that we are finished. I think it's pretty evident we are not.
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Sep 21st, 2012 08:21 PM
