Youve definitely brought up the Luke Fears Rey thing in your arguments. And again, Luke fears for the Galaxy, not for himself. Voldemort only fears for himself.
I know about the wand, but we are not arguing who is the greater wizard without wands, or with random wands. This is Voldemort vs Gandalf with the Elders wand.
The fact that he altered tactics after Dumbledore got back up, and chose a different approach to continuing his fight with Dumbledore, hardly suggests that Voldemort could have won otherwise.
He did fear her power. That does not mean she would defeat him. Luke is not selfish like Voldemort but this is just only their motivations. Morality does not make you greater or less based on that alone.
Voldemort still had him on his backside at the end of their duel before turning his attention to Harry.
He weighed his options. He knew his time was limited. His target was always Harry and assured the death of Albus after that night. Speculative either way but how it ended leads me to believe he held the advantage in a prolonged duel.
The reason why I think Dumbledore>Voldemort is based in the fact that Dumbledore defeated an Elder Wand wielding opponent aka Grindelwald while Voldemort couldn't.
GW and Dumbledore were equals in raw power with Dumbledore only being a shade more skilled, then you give DD the Elder Wand on top of
that. Voldemort.held his own but couldn't get past DDs defenses.
Admittedly I need to rewatch their duel in the movie since it's been a while, but the book versions made it clear neither could get past each others defenses and had to use inanimate objects to protect thenselves at times rather than raw magic. Example is Voldemort summoning a shield and Fawkes the Phoenix coming in to take an AK meant for DD.
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
True, we dunno the details. But, DD has said that he and GW were equals in raw magical power while DD was just a shade more skilled. Add the "most epic duel in history" and that paints a clear picture. DD was so powerful even an already talented wizard further boosted by the EW only rivaled DDs raw power. Heck, GW in Fantastic beasts 2 doesn't want tk fight DD and straight up says only Credence can beat DD or at least has the potential to do so.
I bring this up in case someone mentions how there is a possibility Gw lost his mastery of the EW. When GW says that in FB2 he has no reason to believe that at all. So, that statement + what Dumbledore says about being equals in raw power and him winning since he was a shade more skilled means DD was just so powerful he can dereat an EW user. Voldemort on the other hand couldn't, but he did held his own in the movir and in the book almost got DD but DD also almost got Voldemort, making them more equals rather than either one being more superior than the other.
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
Alright, I actually reread and rewatched both versions of Voldemort vs. Dumbledore since admittedly I haven't seen or read either in years and needed to refresh my memory.
Movie: TBH neither really seemed to have an advantage over the other and were pretty equal. Their spell lock was pretty even, though you can give a slight edge to Dumbledore being the better of the two since Voldemort was trying to redirect sparks of energy from his spell to kill Harry, forcing Dumbledore to defens Harry along with dealing with the lock.
Voldemort decided to break the lock and create the firesnake spell, which Dumbledore was able to destroy in seconds and redirect the flames at Voldy, who proceeded to block them. Dumbledore then encased Voldy in the water bubble which held him for a few seconds till Voldy got out. Voldemort blasted him with darkness which Dumbledore blocked, Voldy recoiled and released that massive burst of energy that shattered all the mirrors then sent the fragments towards Dumbledore, whom turned all the fragments into sand.
All in all the duel was pretty even, I suppose you could argue Dumbledore is the superior sinde Voldy tried to possess Harry rather than continue the duel. But, from what was shown they were even.
Book: The novel paints a different story which favors DD as being outright superior, seems I was wrong about them being equals. Voldemort casts a spell against Harry, which a statue animated by DD runs and shields Harry from it. Voldemort sees DD and blasts another AK which DD reacts fast enough to teleport right behind him. Dumbledore animates several more statues, one of witch pins Bellatrix and a centaur gallops around Voldy and DD.
The narrator then starts to give the first of several hints on DDs state of mind, stating that when DD tells Voldy that the Aurors are arriving that his voice was calm. Voldemort cries angrily how DD will be dead when they arrive and blasts another AK which misses and hits some security desk.
DD unleashes an unnamed spell that was so powerful that Harry, who despite being underneath a large bronze statue, felt his hair stand on end, something that never happened with any wizards spell including Voldemort. The narrator then says Voldy was /forced/ to conjure a silver shield to block said spell, which is extremely impressive. Spells can be countered with other spells barring the AK, but DD was so powerful that Voldy couldn't use a spell to counter it, or at the very least couldn't charge a powerful enough one to do so.
Voldemort then states how Dumbledore isn't even trying to kill him, making the above mentioned spell more impressive. DDs voice is again noted by the narrator to be calm, with DD casually walking towards DD and the narrator saying DD has "No fear in the world" and his walk never being interrupted at all.
Both DD and Voldy continued to talk with the narratir again noting how casual DD was, stating that his tone was as if he were talking with Voldemort while having drinks. Voldemort blasted another AK at DD, the Centaur statue from earlier galloped in front of DD and taking the hit, shattering the statue into a hundred pieces.
Before any of those said pieces hit the floor, DD was so fast he unleashes a spell of green fire that wrapped around Voldemort. DD could have won right then and there, the Narrator noting that it seemed he won. But, Voldy was able to transfigure the fire into a flesh and blood snake while he teleports on top of the platform the statues were originally on.
The snake lunged at DD and at the same time Voldy shoots an AK at DD. Fawkes the Phoenix however flies and eats the AK which causes him to dke but being a Phoenix he is now a baby bird. DD casually turns the snake into smoke and uses the water from the fountain to make the water prison like we saw in the movie, both at the same. He was also fast enough to do both of those spells the instant the Snake almost bit him, so again shows how fast he is.
Voldemort in the book could not escape from the water prison, the narrator noting his struggling. So, he teleports instead and proceess to possess Harry, with the narrator saying this is the first time in the duel DD had fear in his voice, the implication being that throughout the duel DD was calm and only Harry being in danger made him worry.
Voldemort possessing Harry in the book was done because he couldn't fight DD and win, unlike the movie where he simply was in a stalemate with him, Book Voldy could not break out of the water bubble unlike his movie counterpart.
So to recap: movie version they were locked in a stalemate, personally can't really see anything that makes one superior over the other besides DD being able to protect Harry while simultaneously dealing with the spell lock.
Book version it's obvious DD was the clear superior. Not only was DD calm throughout the entire fight, he wasn't fighting to kill either and practically had Voldemort trapped by the end of it. His unnamed spell was so energetic it was felt by Harry who's hair stood up from the power despite being shielded by a bronze statue and being far away, Voldys spells had no such affect like that.
Not to mention Voldemort was forced to summon a shield to protect himself rather than counter it with a spell of his own. Voldemort by the end of it was forced to possess Harry when he was stuck in the water bubble unlike his movie self who got out. DD was also fast enough to dodge 2 of Voldys spells and unleash a spell before falling debris hit the floor and turn a snake into harmless smoke the instant it nearly bit him while at the same time trapping Voldy in the water prison.
Dumbledore nearly won with the fire rope as well, but Voldy was quick enough to turn it into a snake. That and him unleashing his AK at the same his snake attack were the only times Voldy was able to have a moment, since one could argue if Fawkes didn't take the AK then DD would have died.
However, since the narrator states the only time DD felt frightened during the duel was when he saw Harry get possessed, not to mention how he casually teleported to dodge an AK earlier, Fawkes swooping in probably was DDs plan to begin with. Fawkes dealing with the AK saves time from dealing with teleporting and reappearing, which in a duel between 2 high wizards would give an opponent enough time for another attack. He easily took care of the snake and at the same time trapped Voldy in the water prison, so that clearly wasn't a problem. Ofc this is a bit of speculation on my side but it makes the most sense. Not once does the narrator mention DD being in distress even in that moment, only with Harrys possession does DD feel fear and that was after the fighting was finished. He only felt fear since ofc Voldy was making DD force to choose that if he wanted to kill him he needed to kill Harry.
Anyhow, there ya go. I assume this is movies only incarnation obviously, but the book gives us what Rowling originally intended and that was Dumbledore being Voldemort's clear superior. Movie makes them equals and like I said I don't really see how one can draw who is better going by that version of the duel, though admittedly the small amount of evidence that you can pull from it favors Dumbledore, if ever so slightly.
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
Last edited by The Merchant on Dec 1st, 2018 at 11:54 AM
An entirely different character but lets try another route. So far in the new films the approach is simple Albus needs to fight Gellert. There is that silly pact the homos made as youths that makes this not so easy. It is quite obvious Albus is all that is required to take out this dark wizard though admittedly peers. No one else at this point is on his level. So the drama will be what Albus has to do to make confronting him possible.
Now look at Voldemort. Albus spends years obsessing over taking down the greatest dark wizard of all time and readily implies a lot more than just his skill is required in bringing him down. What makes this even more evident is the fact we see the two pitted skill wise in a duel. Despite the elder wand being in Albus possession he does not show any advantage and came across as not dictating the tempo of the duel.
Film versions are entirely different so it is pointless to reference the book FYI.
1. You know what else was said in the new films. Dumbledore=Grindelwald. Dumbledore's the only one who can face Grindelwald because he's his equal.
2. Dumbedore spent yesars trying to bring Voldemort down because of Voldemort's ability to cheat death. Not because Voldemort was better in a duel. The difference is Grindelwald can be killed. Voldemort can't.
3. Books>Movies in canon status though...
However this place is KillerMovies.com so we might not count the books here. IDK.
Dumbledore and Voldemort were both constantly planning each others moves and thoughts in the war, described as a battle of chess of sorts. It was nore complicated than just one or the other going straight up to each other and just dueling each other. Voldemort admits he fears Albus and actively avoids fighting him; DD knows Voldemort can't be destroyed by normal means. Although he didn't know 100% about the Hocruxes, he knew Voldemort performed magic that was allows him to chear death.
Not to mention when we get to the actual duel like I said, the movie version they were portrayed as equals. So with the films it shows us nothing conclusive, which is why I mentioned the books which made the intent clear that Dumbledore>Voldemort.
But, it's fine if only using movie version. They were equals, neither had a true advantage over the other. Was there anything said post duek regarding their power over the other?
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
This makes no sense. If Dumbledore> Voldemort he would have been able to defeat him without the Elder Wand. He failed lol. Even WITH it all he could do was stalemate him.
Also if Dumbledore was only a shade more skilled than Grindelwald then...Grindelwald getting the Elder Wand should have put him above Dumbledore.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
Last edited by Surtur on Dec 1st, 2018 at 06:26 PM
You should reread my next post. When I made that post my memory was hazy and mixed up both movie and book canons. Movie canon Voldy and DD are more or less equals and no evidence really supports either being better over the other, I can concede on that.
Book canon it was a different atiry. DD was outright superior to Voldy, he was calmed throughout the entire fight and nearly won with his fire whip and practically bested him with the water prison all without trying tk iill Voldy.
But I suppose that's irrelevant since this is just movie canon, but again movie canon really has nothing to make a solid stance on for either so it's kind of redundant to argue whom is superipr to who using that duel.
As for GW, I assume the statement DD made about being equals in raw power and only a shade more skilled is referencing GW with the elder wand vs. DD with a normal wand since that's what the duel came down to. GW without the elder wand would have been noticably weaker, which fits in line with FB2 on GW saying he can't beat DD only Credende despite having a boost from the EW.
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
Last edited by The Merchant on Dec 1st, 2018 at 06:51 PM
1. Due to them being the topwisards at this point. Riddle became Voldemort after and surpassed Grindelwald who was Dumbledores equal. It makes sense if Voldemort is greater than Grindelwald he would be greater than Dumbledore.
2. Grindelwald was not killed he was beaten. The same could apply to Voldemort. You just sunk your own battleship.
3. Entirely different continuities. You favoring one does not make more or less important due to your feelings.
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Nov 30th, 2018 04:16 PM
