Joker was someone who pushed Batman to the limits psychologically as he was his polar opposite. Bane was better than him. Bane beat the shite out of him. Bane overtook the city. Joker wasn't in his league.
He did break Batman. Batman had to rediscover himself. I hate how you Joker fanboys act like the only amount of emotional growth occurred in Batman 2. This occurred in every single Batman flick. He was Batman's opposite is all. He represented chaos. Big whoop. Bane was better than Batman at what he did. His plans were grander. His absolute dominance of Gotham was absolute. Joker was just someone who ran around causing mischief screwing with the Batman. That was it. Bane was much harder to beat and he needed everyone's help to do so.
Bane would have destroyed the Joker had the two crossed paths. He'd annihilate him on every front.
That still doesn't counter the fact that Joker beat Batman and could have killed him just like Bane did. Hell, as other have pointed out, Joker beat him multiple times.
Besides which, Bane had years to plan and and prepare for his plan as well as much more resources to use. They were working on that cement for, what, 6 months? The Joker took over Gothams underworld in like a week with no plan at all and a few barrels of gasoline.
It was strongly implied that Talia masterminded everything and Bane was taking orders from her. It's true that we don't know for sure, but that works both ways. If anyone should get credit for the plan, it should be her since she was really the leader of the league of shadows. Bane took orders from her. Not the other way around. They also definitely didn't rule jointly. Ras' Al Ghul kicked Bane out of the league of shadows. The only reason he got back in was because Talia had a soft spot for him for saving her life when she was a child and she inherited her fathers seat when he died. Bane for sure shouldn't get credit for that plan. It was never implied that Bane masterminded the entire ordeal.
Batman never had to rediscover himself. He was determined to overcome Bane before and after their first fight. All the adversities he had to overcome in that movie (except in the beginning when he finally put the entire joker ordeal behind him and came out of retirement) were entirely physical.
Except it was Talia who was in charge. Talia had absolute dominance of Gotham. It was her plan that was hard to beat. The only challenge Bane presented to Batman that entire movie was a physical one, and he got overcome.
That is highly debatable. I'm not saying Bane is an air head, but Joker showed himself to be mentally superior to Bane in every way. And it doesn't matter how hard Bane can hit. Joker can just shoot him in the head. If those two crossed paths, Joker would be a step ahead of him every step of the way, just like he was with Batman (and Bane is no Batman). If Joker ever attempted to get into a physical confrontation with him, he'd have contingencies in place just like when he had the grenade at the mob boss meeting, or a separate detonator for his final plan, or the bomb in the guys stomach as an escape plan. Joker is out of Banes league in every way except raw physical power (and that doesn't help against tommy guns).
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Last edited by Arachnid1 on Jan 29th, 2013 at 07:48 PM
No, the Joker didn't. The Joker at the mercy of the police doesn't approach what Bane did in the plane. The Joker took over a weak underworld. That's the point it was weak. Gotham is a weak town held together by Batman's efforts. Bane was meticulous in his planning while Joker just went nuts here and there. I mean he was so nuts he submitted his life to Harvey Dent. Bane was the end game. Joker was just the middle act.
Batman did have to discover himself. Did you miss the entire time he was in the prison before he broke free and climbed out. He had to rediscover himself and rebuild himself anew to challenge Bane.
We don't know what Talia did exactly so quit speculating. He did what he did for her. We know he pulled it off. We don't know what her specific role was in all this other than someone he cherished.
False. Joker might let Bane kill him. He's that unstable and that pro chaos. Bane was the planner who seized Gotham. Joker was someone easily caught at the end. Joker didn't hold Gotham hostage he just scared the entire city whereas Bane did both.
Gotham was in it's criminal prime in Batman Begins/TDK. It wasn't cleaned up until TDKR. That criminal underworld was not weak at all.
And no, he did not have to rediscover himself. That implies he had to find his motivation again to do it. He never lost his motivation that entire scene. The only thing he had to do was rebuild his body. Totally physical.
And like I said, that works both ways. You're speculating more than I am. I was still more strongly implied that it was all Talias doing. It's true that we don't know for sure, but its far more likely that it was all her planning. I'm speculating like you, but my speculation actually makes sense. If your denying me giving Talia credit for the plan, there is definitely no way Bane getting credit is acceptable. If thats the case, the only thing he gets actually credit for is for handling Batman in his first confrontation like every other villain. That's not impressive.
And Joker wouldn't let Bane kill him. He did it with Batman because Bats was determined not to. He had nothing to prove. He just wanted to change the Batman morally. He has nothing to prove to Bane, so chances are Bane would just get shot in the face. Also, it says a lot that Banes only chance at taking the Joker is if Joker lets him win.
I more see Joker finding a way to get Bane to do his dirty work like Two Face and all the other criminals of Gotham. Maybe he does it by taking Talia hostage or something. Either way, Joker would come out on top.
He may have been the last criminal Batman faced, but he didn't live up to all the other bosses. Ras' and Joker were better villains. Kind of like Satan in Dante's Inferno being the easiest boss fight of all. That was also kind of a let down for fans. Definitely not the end boss we deserved.
The criminal underworld was weak in the sense that it did not have a Joker or Bane like figure, just people who wanted money. Maybe that's what Quan is saying.
Oh, I misunderstood then. That doesn't help his argument either though. When Talia put her marshal law plan into action Gotham, all the cops were underground. Bane and Talia had no resistance. Joker at least had to deal with all these different mobs before he took control through fear.
Well, they were underground because of their plan, like Joker was able to beat the mob bosses because of his, which was really just to be crazy enough so that they would be scared of him.
No it wasn't. All we know is that the whole Occupy Gotham thing is just an elaborate revenge plot. We don't know squat about who planned it. We don't know about Talia's role in the LOS. We don't even know what Ra's Al Ghul's role in the LOS was! He was the leader, the figurehead, the Big Brother. That doesn't make him or Talia the brains behind the day to day operations. He and Talia obviously have a lot of input into what the LOS stands for and its overarching goals, but it takes people like Bane to actually carry them out.
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There was no strong central figure in Gotham's underworld at the time. You can pretend my post implied or meant something else but who do you think you're dealing with ?
No, he did have to rediscover himself. He wasn't as fearless as he once was. He had to rediscover it to break free from the prison.
It doesn't matter as we see Bane carry out the plan. He's clearly competent and shows it on screen. The guy destroyed Batman. Joker didn't.
I am saying he let Harvey Dent shoot him. It was all his decision. Bane would destroy him. He was the end big villain not the intermission.
No, he wouldn't. Joker isn't dealing with some two bit criminal. Bane owned his entire town. Bane was beyond the scope of the Joker. Joker is just some whackjob. That's it.
Lucifer wasn't the easiest boss in Dante's Inferno and besides that who cares. He was a great end boss or antagonist. The guy ****ed with dante the entire time. Bane was the end baddie. Sorry Joker you lose.
Exactly. This is the same reason Talia was too. She had the same seat and the same power he did. Bane practically idiolized her in the scene he had with her at the end.
Yes, I'm sure you're a very feared individual. Do you realize how you sound when you say that on the internet?
Joker was one guy who took over Gothams underworld single handedly when it was at it's most corrupt. There wasn't one strong central figure. There were many. Those mob bosses all feared Joker, and never crossed him. Even Batman couldn't accomplished that.
Bane, on the other hand, had all his power and resources handed to him by Talia.
No, he had to rediscover himself to get back into the game after Joker broke his spirit. Even when Bane imprisoned him, he backed up the people of Gotham and told bane he wouldn't succeed. After coming back from the Joker breaking his spirit, there's no way Bane would be able to come close to it. He just broke his body.
Bane destroyed Batman physically. Joker did much worse. Like I said, every villain has beaten batman once. Batman just had backup to save his life. Both Scarecrow and Ras almost killed the dude in Begins. This was the one case no one backed up Batman, and he still survived.
And Bane was compotent. He'd have to be to be Talias right hand. That doesn't change the fact that he took orders from her. This was her plan, to avenge he father and finish what he started. Not Banes. That much is common sense.
Joker would murder Bane. He'd get blown away nice and easy, just like when Catwoman did it. Anyone who's smart enough to just shoot Bane wins. That failed every time with Joker, because he always had contingencies. Bane would get destroyed.
And Bane isn't dealing with 'just some whackjob'. Thats like saying Bane is just some workout junkie. Watch TDK again, because you have a very distorted memory of the Joker.
Don't you remember TDK? Unlike Bane, Joker never looses. And he comes out on top here too.
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Last edited by Arachnid1 on Jan 31st, 2013 at 06:06 PM
No, Bane broke him. He clearly destroyed him on screen. batman clearly annihilated and captured the Joker on screen. Batman didn't need the entire town to aid him in retaking the city. Bane broke him mentally and physically. The hero doubting himself isn't exclusive to Batman 2. You seem to be rather obsessed with the Joker.
Joker might be able to murder him while he was engaging the Batman. That's exactly what happened in the movie, fanboy. You are really testing my patience now as you are ignoring the context of why it happened. Joker is someone Batman can easily bring in.
Joker is a whackjob. A whackjob gives Harvey Dent a gun and lets him decide whether he lives or dies. It's also a stupid move. So he is a stupid whackjob.
Joker lost. Joker was brought in. You think the Joker won only further proves your fanboyism which is now rearing it's ugly head.
Two completely different villain portrayed brilliantly by two very brilliant actors. Let's just appreciate both of them. I, myself, preferred Bane but I wouldn't kid myself by stating Hardy gave a better performance than Ledger.
They're both probably the two best villains in any comic book movie ever.
Lol reread your post. You're the one acting like a fanboy (and a 12 year old). I like Bane, but Joker is a better character. You seriously had to resort to acting like a dickhead over a little argument? If you don't have the patience for an argument with someone that's the entire point of this thread, than stop visiting the thread. And stop getting all pissy over a little difference of opinion. It's not that big of a deal.
Oh relax it's just a little verbal jousting. Who you think is a better character is subjective. What I am arguing is who had grander plans and was a bigger deal. That's unquestionably Bane.
What I'm arguing is that those weren't Banes plans. The reason I believe this is because Bane never had any kind of motivation for taking down Gotham. He was just following Talia, who had all the reason in the world to destroy Gotham and Batman. Talia and he had some kind of relationship where they both felt they owed eachother. Bane felt he owed her his life for getting him out of the pit and into the league. He had no other motivation to want to put Wayne through hell like that other than at Talias request. He wasn't even in the League of Shadows until after Talia took control, which at best was 8 years prior when Ras' died. Ras' kicked him out, so there is no way Bane did it to avenge his death. This entire thing was orchestrated by Talia. Thats the only thing that makes sense. That's why her being the mastermind was heavily implied.
I'm also arguing that Joker did significantly more with a whole lot less. Both of their end games was to destroy Gotham in some way, just like Ras' in Begins. Talias plan wasn't grander than Jokers, and neither of their plans were grander than Ras'. The exact same thing was at stake in all 3 movies. It was just through a different medium and a bit more direct. Joker was going to psychologically destroy an entire city (kind of like Ras' plan in the first one, except without the fear gas). Joker also did his carnage by himself, which made it even more impressive.
I also feel that Batman went through and sacrificed a whole lot more both before and after capturing the Joker. This was far from easy. For Bane, all he had to do was work out intensely for a few months while living in bad living conditions and enduring a ton of pain. He never really lost anything personal, and he never lost his motivation to come back to Gotham as Batman to save it. I feel that was do to his mental progression he had to make after the Joker, because Joker was a psychological adversary. This movie was more about him rebuilding himself and rising after the second movie which was the fall. Thats why Nolan made those words the tag lines for their respective movies. He wouldn't revisit the same plot point again (especially when it was already done so well). That would be retreading old ground.
You're speculating. Bane was the final great villain. Joker was the middle act. End of discussion. Bane's plans were far greater. He broke batman on screen.
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