The only question I must've missed an explanation of is why they said that wolverine would be the only 1 to remember anything from the old timeline but hinted that Xavier also knew at least the basic principle of the plan.
That Xavier probably didn't know about the time travelling powers but he also the talk with his future self and remembered what Wolverine had said about the original timeline. Even if the former was no longer possible to remember, the later is still legit.
Gender: Male Location: 4th Street Underpass, Manhattan
Yet another question: [SPOILER - highlight to read]: What happened to Wolverine after Mystique (disguised as Stryker) retrieved him? Did she put him through the Weapon Plus program? What did she do with him?
You're viewing the power as an outsider. View the power as just like any of your other senses because that's how they function with mutants. It is just part of their being/person.
She definitely knows she is projecting a consciousness or thoughts into the past. She knows because she does it. She does not have to know the outcome nor is it necessary for her to know the outcome to be able to use the power. Go back to the metaphor I used. Pretend there is a giant wall between the Mound and the home plate and she's throwing pitches over that giant wall. She does not know what happens after she throws the pitch once it passes the wall but she definitely knows which direction show throws the pitch and how intense. It is completely unnecessary for her to need to know where the pitch ends up in order for her to throw it. All she has to do is throw it. Throwing it is part of her being, part of her senses, and a mutant power that makes sense to her.
That's not correct.
If you can send information into the past, like she can, then information can be sent to the future. Like all of their powers, they improved them. She could have trained these at the X-mansion under Xavier's guiding eyes and mind. You could send information in the past that alters your future but make it to where it does not alter it very much so that you can receive the information that you sent into the past.
For instance, she could have sent information to Xavier 5 minutes into the past, Xavier collects the message which is "The message was received and your powers work", and then the future is altered by that received message. Now, the experiment still happens in this divergent timeline. Xavier, after she sends the message to him in the past again, tells her, "The message was received and your powers work." The future, while altered, still did not change the fact that the information was sent, received, and communicated on both ends. Xavier is aware of both timelines, now. But, now, so is Kitty because Xavier confirmed that it worked.
Reality did not change, technically, and the argument of consciousness (and how it works) can come into play. For instance, some philosophers will say that this situation would not create a new timeline (if it did not alter the universe in anyway except to pass benign information to a mind such as the example I gave). The timeline would remain whole/intact and not diverge even though information was sent into the past. This appears to be the case in the film (that this is how they, they authors, view time-streams). While this philosophical approach to temporal information networking (TIN) is postulated by some philosophers, there is plenty of evidence out there to support the multi-verse theory which has new timelines/realities being created OR used with any time travel change. The "used" portion of this multiverse theory means that there already existed a universe, in the sea of nearly infinite universes, that was almost an exact clone replica of our own. When the information, in this thought experiment, was passed (pun?), it then became this other universe (yes, the whole thing changed to that other universe). This makes more sense if you picture these universes existing and connecting to shadows or threads. They can easily switch among themselves and there is a sea of nearly an infinity of them.
Edit - The reason I believe that the "passed information but future remained un-divergent" is because the future does not change when she sends information in the past unless the information she sent worked specifically to alter that future. Remember them looking around and wondering why shit hadn't changed, yet? That's because if the information she sent did not cause the "future" to change, things would still remain the same. This could even be a situation where lots of people die in one isolated area. As long as those deaths do not alter the futures of those people, the reality stays the same (at least, in the film....in the real world, it would work much differently).
I disagree. The method of information passing they are using is a well-known and well-understood idea. It is probably wrong...but it was certainly a philosophical approach to time-streams and some still hold that it is correct.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: How did Wolverine survive being experimented on? The experiments do not necessarily have to be fatal. The good Doctor, Dr. Trask, would not want to kill them, for sure. He said things like blood, bone-marrow, neuronal tissues, and spinal fluid. All of those can be obtained without permanently damaging the subject.
This.
It seems like the writers went out of their way to make the story more difficult to understand. It was unnecessary to make the stipulation that her consciousness is not aware of the divergent timeline despite the fact that her consciousness and mutant power were the thing that created the divergent timeline. Of all people, she should be the only one (and her subject) that are aware of the time change.
So, yeah, I agree with you, I guess. It should have been your way.
This is easy to explain: Xavier knew pretty much everything that Logan knew because he did a "brain-reading" in the room with Cerebro. Xavier now has Logan's memories from the future-timeline that never happens (because it was sent to oblivion via Kitty's time-projection power).
So, now, Logan and Xavier have the same memories of that apocalyptic potential future. The reason, at the beginning of the film, they theorized that only Logan would retain the memories is because Xavier did not have his powers in 1973, where Wolverine was getting sent. Had Xavier had his powers, as they knew it, then Xavier in the past could easily know all the Wolverine knows and that would have changed the debate they were having. In fact, the film directly addresses this because Wolverine is the one who states/asks that he can easily convince Xavier to help by just having him read his mind. That was when they brought up the point that Xavier had lost his powers.
__________________
Last edited by dadudemon on May 26th, 2014 at 03:09 AM
Since daududemon took the time out to address my concerns its only fair I respond in kind. I mean Kitty states that the future created by the time traveling consciousness power is the only future anyone other than the person being transported would know. That means that whenever she uses her powers successfully there's an alternate future made in which it would appear as if she never used her powers to change the previous outcome in the first place. I guess my greatest concern is how does she know exactly what to do in terms of how far she should send someone back, how she knew she had this power in the first place, and how is she able to use it effectively to the point where she can change the timeline that she's currently in but not well enough to remember the previous events of the timeline she originally did the time-traveling conscious thing.
Going by that explanation, the only training she could do with this power is by going off of what other people tell her about the power that she's using to tell other people to tell the past version of her about it. Also while the sending of information by relaying it to Bishop or Xavier would work, it also requires the audience to make a lot of assumptions to be made about its functions and of Kitty's experience with the power: assumption that I personally do not feel that I should have to make w/o any previous information given about the power.
Also your analogy of explaining how the timelines work would be just fine had someone came out and said that in the film. Instead I'm left wondering why Kitty suddenly developed this power and how she's able to use it so well, since according to the information that she gives the audience about it, she wouldn't have any memory of the previous timelines that she's changed which would lead me to the conclusion that each time Kitty uses her power, she would perceive it as a brand new power on every time.
The approach would have been just fine and made sense had it been given a better explanation. Or better yet just give Charles the power since it would be a more reasonable secondary-mutation rather than going from phasing to time-traveling powers. Personally I saw it as a cheap way of trying to make Kitty relevant even though here actual role in this story was given to another character. Then again I don't think Ellen Page's Kitty would be strong enough to be the central character in this movie so I guess it was for the best.
Well[SPOILER - highlight to read]: Nothing in Trask's files showed that the experiments he planned to perform were survivable considering Angel and Azazel look like they were gutted like fish in their pictures. The best guess I could think is that the government allowed Trask Industries to continue with its Sentinel Program in which the new leader of the company did the non-lethal experiments that you mentioned.
Also I don't think Wolverine's the best example since the experiments done on him were very lethal: he only survived thanks to HF.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: He absorbs energy but instead of redirecting the energy out with his hands he has a gun he focuses it through. He also technically is a time traveller since it's him Kitty keeps sending a couple of days back in time to warn the others of an attack. And he's apart of all the future fight sequences.
Ah yes. So Xavier reading wolverine's mind prior to them changing the timeline would still be retained. Presumably then, when Wolverine wakes up at the end of the movie is supposed to be the same date as when his mind was sent back from the future that didn't happen. You would've thought Xavier would remember the date in the future that got changed where this happened and wolverine coming to him finally having the memories from the alternative future wouldn't be such a surprise to him.
The guy who does that video is possibly the most annoying **** I've seen in quite some time. What's with all the 'hip hop' arm movements? Does he do that all the time? Can you imagine someone doing that when you're having a conversation with them?
KMC Community Forums
May 26th, 2014 12:57 AM
