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Neuro-science related Question for Oliver North
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KillaKassara
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Neuro-science related Question for Oliver North

Would Would undergoing 'in situ' brain replacement (replacing every neuron and synapse one by one with nanorobots) as my method of creating a substrate-independent AI without human flaws be the most miserable and torturous experience ever?

quote:
Removal of a large portion of a brain structure results in irreversible deficits, unless it happens in very early infancy. We know this from watching people go through transient or permanent personality and ability changes after head trauma, stroke, extensive brain surgery or during the agonizing process of various neurodegenerative diseases, dementia in particular...Primary neurons live about three weeks in the dish, even though they are fed better than most children in developing countries — and if cultured as precursors, they never attain full differentiation. The ordeals of Christopher Reeve and Stephen Hawking illustrate how hard it is to solve even “simple” problems of either grey or white brain matter...As a result, renewal of large brain swaths will require such a lengthy lifespan that the replacements may never catch up. Not surprisingly, the efforts in this direction have begun with such neurodegenerative diseases as Parkinson’s, whose causes are not only well defined but also highly localized: the dopaminergic neurons in the substantia nigra...To go through the literally mind-altering feats shown in Whedon’s Dollhouse would be the brain equivalent of insect metamorphosis. It would take a very long time – and the person undergoing the procedure would resemble Terry Schiavo at best, if not the interior of a pupating larva...Dollhouse gets one fact right: if such rewiring is too extensive or too fast, the person will have no memory of their prior life, desirable or otherwise. But as is typical in Hollywood science (an oxymoron, but we’ll let it stand), it gets a more crucial fact wrong: such a person is unlikely to function like a fully aware human or even a physically well-coordinated one for a significant length of time — because her brain pathways will need to be validated by physical and mental feedback before they stabilize. Many people never recover full physical or mental capacity after prolonged periods of anesthesia. Having brain replacement would rank way higher in the trauma scale.


That's if I want to use Embryonic Stem Cell induced Neurogenesis to keep my mind conscious during the transition in order to retain my consciousness afterward?

I think it makes a clear distinction that the trauma is only suffered in order for a continuity of consciousness, of ESC regeneration for constant Neurogenesis were capable of keeping the mind self-aware during the process...?

Death = Nothing and a new life-form, a new consciousness completely different than anything ever seen before? Most likely interested only in super-evolving the intelligence of all consciousnesses in general?

Immortality = Miraculous pain and a substrate-independent nutcase? Possibly only interested in a maso-sadistic obsession, in torturing the experience of all consciousnesses in general?


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Last edited by KillaKassara on Jul 12th, 2013 at 03:53 AM

Old Post Jul 12th, 2013 03:38 AM
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Old Post Jul 12th, 2013 04:51 AM
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I find it is hilarious that "sophisticated molecular repair of somatic and germ mutations" is a casual issue to be brushed off in one sentence at the end of the article but somehow this, which is arguably simpler, cannot. The comfort and speed of uploading is a technical problem. Like all technical problems that stand in the way of transhumanism it is proper to ignore it as a minor detail.

What is her basis for the claim that "brain pathways will need to be validated by physical and mental feedback before they stabilize" by the way? Is she claiming to be from the future? Uploading is currently fictional. She has no idea how it will work thus she has no idea what the limitations, speed, and level of comfort will be.


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Old Post Jul 12th, 2013 04:56 AM
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tsilamini
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the ignore function has made this site endurable. I'm imagining something about space computers doing magic?


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Old Post Jul 12th, 2013 11:16 AM
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Symmetric Chaos
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Oliver North
the ignore function has made this site endurable. I'm imagining something about space computers doing magic?


How traumatic do you think it would be to have your entire brain replaced with mechanical analogues of neurons by nanobots? I'm imagining glial cells slowly sagging under the weight of robotic neurons. H+ will look like a kappa, with a bowl shaped head.


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Old Post Jul 12th, 2013 01:09 PM
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the technology required to even approach such a thing would be so advanced that reducing the trauma from it would be trivial. Like, I assume subjective trauma, which we can already reduce during brain surgery, otherwise there is tautologically no trauma as I don't believe cell death caused by surgery is "trauma" in that way(?)

tbh, that really isn't a "neuroscience" question at all...


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Old Post Jul 12th, 2013 01:13 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Oliver North
as I don't believe cell death caused by surgery is "trauma" in that way(?)


hmmm, Wiki suggests all injury is trauma, so it would be... the question would then be moot, as to replace a brain cell, it would have to be removed. There may be some philosophical question about whether the removal of a single cell, hundreds of millions of times, is an injury. Similarly, the fact the cell is replaced might be an academic consideration to the ontology of "injury". In either case, the subjective experience of the individual wouldn't be changed, as I'm assuming the person would be in some type of unconscious state during the procedure. Also, more of a medical-ethics/bio-philosophical question, not neuroscience.


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Old Post Jul 12th, 2013 02:34 PM
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KillaKassara
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I feel like crud because OV blocked me, it's kinda strange that you find out a member randomly hates you and you had no clue.


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Old Post Jul 12th, 2013 11:20 PM
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I haven't blocked you.


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Old Post Jul 12th, 2013 11:26 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I haven't blocked you.


He means OliVer north....obviously


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Old Post Jul 12th, 2013 11:37 PM
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Why would it be painful to replace a neuron with a device with the same functionality? You don't stimulate any pain receptors.

Old Post Jul 14th, 2013 05:59 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Astner
Why would it be painful to replace a neuron with a device with the same functionality? You don't stimulate any pain receptors.
I think the quote, which I may have misinterpreted, in my OP was the author's assertion on human to human brain replacement.

Apropos, the author never presumed to assert on what replacing human cells with electronic counterparts would be like.


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"Compounding these trickster aspects, the Joker ethos is verbally explicated as such by his psychiatrist, who describes his madness as "super-sanity." Where "sanity" previously suggested acquiescence with cultural codes, the addition of "super" implies that this common "sanity" has been replaced by a superior form, in which perception and processing are completely ungoverned and unconstrained"

Old Post Jul 14th, 2013 07:27 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Astner
Why would it be painful to replace a neuron with a device with the same functionality? You don't stimulate any pain receptors.


Trauma doesn't necessarily entail pain.


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Old Post Jul 14th, 2013 08:21 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dolos
Apropos, the author never presumed to assert on what replacing human cells with electronic counterparts would be like.

Neurons communicate through electrochemical signals, not electric signals.

Old Post Jul 14th, 2013 08:32 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Astner
Neurons communicate through electrochemical signals, not electric signals.
But a nanobot is composed of electronic parts, which on the macroscale would be as powerful as a quantum computer. When on the nano-meter scale, it is still far, far, far more powerful than a neuron, a dendrite, or a synaptic nerve...and it will be completely compatible with the cybernated systems and information therein contained within the digitized information sphere created by all electronic information that engulfs the globe.


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"Compounding these trickster aspects, the Joker ethos is verbally explicated as such by his psychiatrist, who describes his madness as "super-sanity." Where "sanity" previously suggested acquiescence with cultural codes, the addition of "super" implies that this common "sanity" has been replaced by a superior form, in which perception and processing are completely ungoverned and unconstrained"

Old Post Jul 14th, 2013 08:38 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dolos
But a nanobot is composed of electronic parts, which on the macroscale would be as powerful as a quantum computer. When on the nano-meter scale, it is still far, far, far more powerful than a neuron, a dendrite, or a synaptic nerve.

A dendrite is part of a neuron and a synapse and synaptic vesicles (not nerves) are the neurons' way of interacting with one another.

And what do you mean by more powerful? What you need is a receptor and catalyst that can survive in a certain environment, something that we're not even close to creating and for all we know may be impossible to create within the frame of scale you're giving.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dolos
..and it will be completely compatible with the cybernated systems and information therein contained within the digitized information sphere created by all electronic information that engulfs the globe.

Are you writing a book?

Old Post Jul 14th, 2013 08:55 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Astner
A dendrite is part of a neuron and a synapse and synaptic vesicles (not nerves) are the neurons' way of interacting with one another.


Fair enough.

quote:
And what do you mean by more powerful?


More energy in less space, faster communication between receptors and activators.

quote:
What you need is a receptor and catalyst that can survive in a certain environment, something that we're not even close to creating and for all we know may be impossible to create within the frame of scale you're giving.


The state of progress that information technology is in isn't coming to a halt or anything, it's quite exponential.

The first computers took up half a building, in a decade we'll have trillions of times that kind of computing power in a cellphone. #Quantum-computers.

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"Compounding these trickster aspects, the Joker ethos is verbally explicated as such by his psychiatrist, who describes his madness as "super-sanity." Where "sanity" previously suggested acquiescence with cultural codes, the addition of "super" implies that this common "sanity" has been replaced by a superior form, in which perception and processing are completely ungoverned and unconstrained"

Last edited by KillaKassara on Jul 14th, 2013 at 09:11 PM

Old Post Jul 14th, 2013 09:06 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dolos
More energy in less space, faster communication between receptors and activators.

I think you're missing the point.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dolos
The state of progress that information technology is in isn't coming to a halt or anything, it's quite exponential.

The first computers took up half a building, in a decade we'll have trillions of times that kind of computing power in a cellphone. #Quantum-computers.

Eventually we'll run out of things to discover, and I'm pretty sure an implantable synthetic neurotransmitter a billionth the size of a neuron is beyond that threshold.

Old Post Jul 14th, 2013 09:17 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Astner
Eventually we'll run out of things to discover, and I'm pretty sure an implantable synthetic neurotransmitter a billionth the size of a neuron is beyond that threshold.


Baseless assumption.

Especially considering the definition of exponential.


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"Compounding these trickster aspects, the Joker ethos is verbally explicated as such by his psychiatrist, who describes his madness as "super-sanity." Where "sanity" previously suggested acquiescence with cultural codes, the addition of "super" implies that this common "sanity" has been replaced by a superior form, in which perception and processing are completely ungoverned and unconstrained"

Old Post Jul 14th, 2013 09:25 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dolos
Baseless assumption.

Not quite. A synthetic neuron would still have to have a lipid-based membrane as well as the function of to retrieve energy through the ATP to ADP reaction, this alone would cover 5-10% of the width of an axon, which already blows your micro- to nano scale out of proportion.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dolos
Especially considering the definition of exponential.

You can't extrapolate that to infinity.

Old Post Jul 14th, 2013 09:35 PM
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