not bashing ssjgogeta or anything i just think he can act very childish and immature sometimes.
anyways back to the debate i think the final conclusion for this debate for this thread is itachi loses based on facts stated by wakka and the added facts that ms jutsus greatly fatigue itachi as he himself has stated before in part 1, and then we see for ourselves that he exhausted himself against sasuke. The 5 kage should do even more than exhaust itachi
anyone disagree?
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"One must be willing to give his life for those he wishes to protect."
Last edited by chasedown on May 2nd, 2014 at 07:00 PM
Based on Shikaku's statement about Itachi's Genjutsu capability during this arc coupled with Kakashi telling Kurenai and Asuma to not look into Itachi's eyes during Tsukuyomi's activation, we can conclude that Itachi can easily cast a Genjutsu on at least 5 people.
Also, aside from Onoki, there's really nothing any of them can do once Susano'o is up in full force. Not to mention that none of them can break out of Tsukuyomi or deal with Amaterasu either. This is a spite match-up tbh.
I disagree. This is Edo Tensei Itachi, not half-dead or restricted by plot Itachi. He also didn't exhaust himself against Sasuke, he exhausted himself by using both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu (which is honestly more of a plot restriction than anything)
-Alive healthy Itachi would win casually via countering Onoki's Dust Release with a Genjutsu and after dealing with him he'd put up Susano'o and then wtf are the Gokage going to do?
-Edo Tensei Itachi would also win since he can pretty much spam his Mangekyo Sharingan abilities despite being nerfed in stats.
-Itachi vs Sasuke fight Itachi could lose, but still doubtful.
Bottom line is the 5 Kage don't stand a chance against Itachi. He's the same guy who's one-paneled people on-par or stronger than most of these guys without even using one of his strong Jutsu. His hax are just too broken for any of these guys to deal with once Onoki's down. Tsunade and Mei are just lmao. Gaara is just garbage and Raikage was just slightly stronger than novice MS Sasuke.
Last edited by TheTyrant on May 7th, 2014 at 08:54 AM
I swear there are too many itachi fanboys on this website. Unless hes up against a god theyre gonna say he wins..... Without even really thinking about what they sayin.
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"One must be willing to give his life for those he wishes to protect."
Then prove us wrong. You tried to push sick Itachi when this is Edo Tensei Itachi to begin with.
He can literally cast his Genjutsu on all 5 of them, kill Onoki, and the put up his complete Susano'o with Yata Mirror attached. Now what are they going to do other than run for their lives? And that's not even going to Tsukuyomi which is his most op ability.
Like i said we dont know the number it inconclusive. You cant just give him a number. Just because you like itachi. The man said "that many" which could mean anywhere from 0 and up.
Also If itachi can do that why didnt his edo tensei form attempt to put bee and naruto under it in the beginning of their fight. Why didnt he do it against kakashi, kurenai asuma and gai in part 1 or against naruto and the group in the beggining of part 2. Hes had several chances to do what you claim yet weve only seen him cast genjutsu on one person at a time. One is the only conclusive number that we know for sure itachi can put under genjutsu. Any number other than one is pure speculation and can be debated unless you show concrete unarguable evidence that suggest otherwise (him actually doing it)
Also itachi is not a speed demon hes not faster than raikage, oonoki hast dust release which can damage susanoo and counter any ninjutsu that has an atomic structure, gaara can both pull him out of susanoo as well as trap him in the sand pyramid. Mei has hidden mist jutsu, acid mist jutsu, lava technique and other water releases. Tsunade is physically the strongest character weve seen in the verse and has mitotic regen apong with katsuya who cal continuously heal the team. Only final susanoo has been seen to break out of it.
If it werent for final susanoo the team would have beaten madara so you mean to tell me itachi is more capable than madara himself. I think not. If that was the case itachi would not have been a subordinate within the akatsuki.
__________________
"One must be willing to give his life for those he wishes to protect."
Kakashi also stated that it doesn't matter how many people are fighting Itachi, because if you can't escape his genjutsu on your own(in other words, if you don't have sharingan), then you lose, which is exactly why Chiyo was shocked at his ability.
He did.
"I came to give a message, not start a war.". Not to mention that he was already fatigued from using Tsukiyomi, and that he was fighting all jonin that could escape genjutsu or even clash with his.
And the Naruto thing? It was a 30% clone that had ALSO used tsukiyomi, and was fighting a bunch of people with counters to genjutsu, as one of them had sharingan. Your results are, again, inconclusive. The only people that have ever forced Itachi to use his full power have been sharingan users, or people that countered his genjutsu by changing their literal biology. The statement still stands, as none of the kage have demonstrable multi-person genjutsu defense, or speed even close to Itachi's.
Just to clarify on Itachi's speed, you're wrong . Must I post the scans again? Speed terms: Itachi>Nagato>>Naruto=Killer Bee>Raikage. I.e. Itachi>>>>Raikage. You seem to forget that even a dying, ill, barely-conscious Itachi was able to block an attack as fast as Raikage's most impressive jutsu.
None of those things matter, as they are all in genjutsu, and Itachi is hilariously faster than all of them anyways.
Tsunade? I think you're forgetting that Naruto casually lifted and threw multiple biju, and did so easily. The same Naruto who demonstrated to be helpless when faced with Nagato level strength. And that's the Nagato that Itachi one-shotted.
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"Why is everybody so ****ing stupid?"- Kim Jong Il, Team America.
Last edited by SSJGGogeta on May 10th, 2014 at 04:39 AM
I find it funny how this thread keeps getting revived. I still can't help but be compelled to give my input though so I guess I'm at fault too.
You know there are 5 people in this fight right? Also that would be nice if Itachi had on-panel feats of casting genjutsu on multiple people simultaneously. But unless your ready to bring something out right now I can safely say Itachi doesn't have such feats.
Note that I'm not denying Itachi's capability of doing so but rather dismissing the notion that it can be used to argue a point in a vs. debate since we only have "word of mouth" to go off of.
No he didn't or at least not both Naruto and Bee at the same time. Bee was the only person caught in genjutsu and he immediately broke out of it.
So...that doesn't explain why he didn't use it before. He had no problem using genjutsu counter against Kurenai and seemed to be pretty well before the Tsukuyomi. Also how does that quote help Itachi's case? considering his "no war" goal would've been achieved easier if the Jonin were incapacitated non-lethally with something like genjutsu.
That 30% number doesn't mean much in this instance. Aso mentioning the people there that had counters to genjutsu just proves the point that Itachi can't affect people with genjutsu resistance easily. Remember out of the people he could've affected at the time, only Naruto(the person with the least genjutsu skill) was caught. There are 5 Kage here, two of which could easily repair any trauma done by genjutsu. The notion that the Kage are less genjutsu resistant than the 4 people in the group against Itachi is absurd.
So according to your A,B,C logic Kabuto and Sasuke are two of the fastest characters in the series right? Because if you seriously believe that scale above, Then that means both Kabuto and Sasuke are Minato level in terms of reaction time and speed. Would like to point out that Itachi hasn't successfully tagged someone while moving under their "superspeed" condition. And yes it would certainly help your case of Itachi tagging someone while they were using their method of "super speed".
Not really. He's not faster than A and even if he was(he's not) genjutsu that isn't Tsukuyomi isn't effective if there are people to break you out of it. One Kage is more than enough to keep Itachi's hands full even if its only a means of distraction.
KCM Naruto doesn't have Sage Mode strength plus Nagato was using Human Path on Naruto meaning that physical strength was useless. Also when did Naruto lift biju and what does that have to do with Itachi? Itachi needed help to seal Nagato so it's not entirely his victory.
How about you disprove Shikaku's statement, first and foremost? You know, because you still haven't, and it proves Itachi can at least capture two people in genjutsu at one time. Oh! and the "they can break out of it with their teammates", argument is retarded, because as I've explained pain-stakingly often before, IT GIVES ITACHI AN OPPORTUNITY VAPORIZE TWO KAGE WITH A PASSING GLANCE, THAT THEY CAN'T AVOID.
So basically, you won't admit I'm right because you don't want to admit that your preferred characters will lose? Glad you admit it.
Exactly. And do you know why Bee broke out of it? BECAUSE HE'S A FULLY-REALIZED JINCHURIKI. I never said Itachi could cast genjutsu on a biju while it's sealed. The same thing would have happened if he did it to Naruto, which would have resulted in him wasting even more time and energy.
So... The fact that he didn't want to waste his chakra using genjutsu when he didn't want to fight in the first place doesn't prove that he didn't want to waste his chakra using genjutsu when he didn't want to fight in the first place? I phucking hate this website sometimes...
You clearly didn't understand my point. Itachi could have cast genjutsu on the jonin. It would have been mostly pointless though, because three of the four jonin he was fighting had counters, or could simply release it. That's why he used Tsukiyomi on Kakashi. Kakashi was a hardened sharingan user, and could see through his normal stuff pretty handily. Tsukiyomi though, no one can, unless Itachi lets them. Even when Sasuke did it, it was only because Itachi was dying, and let him break out of it.
Again, three of the jonin could counter his base genjutsu, and he can't use Tsukiyomi on three people in one day without being completely exhausted, and making his eyesight even worse. That, paired with the fact that he was already dying is enough to completely prove that Itachi was holding back... as he said. *sigh*
So show me a scan of any of the kage resisting genjutsu on their own. Go ahead, I'll wait. Oh right, you can't. The only one with demonstrable genjutsu defense is Tsunade, and that's only because of a statement. Sure, the kage can break eachother out of it, but NOT if Itachi captures them all in it at once. He can at least use it on two people though, meaning that it would leave him fighting one on one with one of the kage, while two others relieved the two caught in genjutsu, leading to at least three of them being killed on the spot, as he could quickly eliminate the one he was one on one with, and vaporized at least one that he caught under genjutsu and the one healing him. That leaves him to cast it on the remaining two before assassinating them. Boom, they're dead. Give me ONE feat that says they could do ANYTHING to stop him from doing that.
Yeah, pretty much. You're neglecting the fact that Kabuto traveled to the alliance in mere minutes, which is even faster than the kage could travel on Gaara's sand(which happens to be MUCH faster than the Raikage). What does Minato have to do with this? He is SLOW without Hiraishin. He, at best, only has around Kakashi w/sharingan level reaction speed. However, he has Hiraishin, which makes him light speed, but only when warping. That's why the Raikage nearly lobbed his head off, but he could warp away from it, but barely missed getting tagged by Bee's tentacles when not using Hiraishin. Sasuke was fast enough at that point to fight on par with people like Bijuu mode Naruto.
I don't know how to post Naruto moving at "superspeed", when he is doing so simply by being in KCM. You neglecting literal feats just makes you seem stupid.
I've already proven that Itachi's faster. You denying it with no proof other than fangirl bias does nothing to help your case.
You're forgetting that to break someone out of even base genjutsu, it requires direct physical contact and several seconds of motionlessness. That is the perfect formula for a shot of Ammy to kill two metaphorical birds with one stone.
PFFT, One kage was enough to keep KCM Naruto distracted, by one Nagato was enough to solo him AND Bee, two Kage+ level characters, and Itachi was enough to ONE-SHOT Nagato, the same thing he would, even more casually, do to ANY of the Kage.
Umm, what? KCM Naruto stomped Kisame into the ground, threw a meteor off course, and overpowered several biju sized summons. Nowhere was it stated that Sage mode was stronger. In fact, it was insinuated that it wasn't.
How do you think Naruto was pulling his soul back in then? Physical strength obviously does matter, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to keep Nagato from stealing his soul immediately. Not to mention that he couldn't even break free from Nagato's hold, which again reinforces the fact that Nagato was hilariously superior.
Itachi needed help? With what? Are you talking about the three-way attack on planetary devastation? Itachi still had Susano'o, you know, and could still insta-seal Nagato with Totsuka blade like he did. Either way, if Itachi is blood-lusted, this fight ends with five stabs that the Kage can't react to.
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"Why is everybody so ****ing stupid?"- Kim Jong Il, Team America.
If Itachi doesn't have on panel feats of something or the equivalent, then you can't just give him some feats based on "word of mouth" alone especially if there isn't any knowledge as to how he would cast it or how powerful the genjutsu in question would be.
I don't have to disprove Shikaku's statement since I already agree with it. With that said you can't use that statement to give Itachi feats that he himself hasn't shown.
Bringing up Bee was an example of genjutsu cast by Itachi, being counter with only one other person breaking him out of it. There are 5 people here so if one gets caught then 4 others can break them out of it.
He was already caught by 2 Jonin by that point, he couldn't just run away and if he didn't want to kill people why not just cast genjutsu on both of them. He didn't even have to use Tsukuyomi to do so since he already proved himself superior in genjutsu to Kurenai without it. Again this doesn't help Itachi's case.
So your just going to give the Jonin genjutsu counters even though your accusing me of given the Kages feat they don't have. Itachi was drained after using it on Kakashi, or at the very least wasn't at 100% while using it. Plus despite Tsukuyomi's power, it requires direct eye contact to work something that, one again, the Kages have means of avoiding. Kakashi's folly was trying to match Itachi in a genjutsu battle he had no chance of winning Sharingan or otherwise.
Counters to his base genjutsu, so your just going to give the Jonin feats but exclude them from the Kage. Sure I'll give you Kurenai and Kakashi but Asuma has shown no such feats. Oh and if your going to give genjutsu counters as an implicit ability of elite ninja like water-walking, then the Kages also get that feat due to equivalency.
Don't have to since I've already proven that it only takes one person to break people out of genjutsu that isn't Tsukuyomi. Furthermore, if I'm going to show you this, then could you at least direct me to a statement or feats of Asuma having genjutsu resistance. Furthermore, Itachi can't just cast 5 people under genjutsu at once if we don't know the means to how he can do it. Along with this your greatly overestimating Itachi's abilities, because even as an Edo he wasn't able to use MS techniques back to back. The Tosuka blade is his best bet and depending on who he captures in genjutsu, assuming he gets anyone under it, the Kage's still have means to avoid and counter it.
Also Tsunade has on-panel feats of repairing mental trauma and Onoki has on-panel feats of breaking people out of genjutsu.
You seriously can't believe that. That's a false comparison for 1, due to the simple fact that travel speed =/= combat speed. Last time I checked, Kabuto wasn't moving at lightning speeds while fighting. Gaara's sand intercepted A in mid-air and not while he was using his uber-body flicker. Minato has bar-none the best reaction time in the series which is one of the reason why his FTG is so potent. Stating that Kabuto and Sasuke are faster than Itachi would elevate their speed and reaction time to Minato FTG and reaction time as well. Sasuke didn't fight o par with Biju-mode Naruto, no where near close to it.
That's not my problem. To convey the notion that Itachi is faster than A requires a feat where Naruto used his top-speed
That's not really much of anything considering people much weaker than Naruto have done similar feats. Furthermore Sage Mode Naruto is only surpassed by Sakura an Tsunade in terms of strength feats so using Kisame really isn't the best example of Naruto's strength.
Naruto was pull his soul back in a similar fashion to how he was able to pull Kurama's chakra. If physical strength was all that was required to break out of human path, there would've been at least some resistance shown to it in the Pein Invasion. Therefore it can be concluded that Human Path, is able to bypass physical strength.
So...why didn't he? Was it because he was also being pulled in By Chibaku Tensei? Nothing Itachi showed at that point would be convincing as evidence that he could stop Chibaku Tensei on his own and this jutsu has also been shown to resist biju so yeah, that wasn't Itachi's victory. Even if Itachi were bloodlusted, that would just mean that the Kage's no longer have to deal with genjutsu or Amateratsu. Also the blade only works if it hits you meaning that A can dodge it or Gaara can fly the Kage's out the way and even pull Itachi out of his Susanoo. Oh and the uber Particle Style Tech that Onoki can use with Tsunade could bypass that as well: Kirin proves that the extent that Itachi can keep Susanoo materialized fully has a limit. Considering what the Particle beam did, it is same to assume that it can indeed pass that limit.
1. So I'm right, but I'm also wrong? No, the statement was made, you haven't disproved it, so I'm right.
2. None of the kage have Biju level chakra other than Raikage, and none of them are literally sealed into another, so they can all be caught in genjutsu.
3. Kurenai was still a talented genjutsu user, and the only way he could beat her with genjutsu was if Kisame fought Asuma, which would attract more attention, which it did. Again, he didn't want to fight a war. Plus, Kakashi got there pretty quickly.
4. The Jonin have demonstrated or at least been stated to have genjutsu counters. The Kage, except for Tsunade, have not.
5. THE JONIN HAVE DEMONSTRATED OR AT LEAST BEEN STATED TO HAVE GENJUTSU COUNTERS. THE KAGE, EXCEPT FOR TSUNADE, HAVE NOT.
6. I never said Asuma did. Hints the way I said "three of the four jonin he was fighting had counters, or could simply release it.", . God, sometimes I think you're legitimately retarded.
7. (please log in to view the image)
No, you haven't disproved it. If you want to try again, then go ahead, prove that you need less than two people to break Itachi's genjutsu, unless the person has sharingan, is a skilled genjutsu user, or is a jinchuriki. And since you're so dead-set on feats only, go ahead and post a scan of it. Oh! and I know you're gonna post the Sakura slapping Naruto thing, so I'll say this again. HE. WAS. ALREADY. OUT. OF. THE. GENJUTSU. (I just posted the scan, genius). As I said, I'll wait.
8. None of them have feats of breaking Itachi level genjutsu. So again, it still takes two people to break one out of it.
9. So last time you checked, you obviously didn't notice that Kabuto was fighting someone with a speed feat above Raikage, as well as a feat of blocking lightning on his deathbed.
Gaara used his sand to block Raikage using Armor level 1. Don't try nit-picking it, because you sound retarded. He was using his speed. Otherwise, prove that he wasn't. Not to mention that Gaara blocked Amaterasu with his sand.
Give feats, or you're wrong. I already proved that Minato is slower than Killer Bee without Hiraishin, and that's a much weaker Killer Bee than the one who trained Naruto.
Yeah, Sasuke did fight on par with Biju mode Naruto, as he held him up many times, and was even stated to be equal to Biju mode Naruto by Minato himself.
I already have. What you have yet to do is prove that Naruto wasn't using his KCM speed, while he was in his KCM. That just sounds retarded, lol. Phucking ignorant, fan-wankers, I swear.
10. You making statements gets you nowhere. Since you have yet to provide feats, I accept your concession.
Prove it. Oh wait, you can't, because the accusation that a couple of chunnin level ninja and lower could stand up to Pain is ludicrous.
Uh, he kind of did. You know, by one-shotting Nagato with an attack he couldn't react to, with his reaction speed that dominated two characters faster than Raikage.
What? Itachi could have just sealed Planetary devastation with a stab of the totsuka blade. The same way he sealed the sword of Kusanagi with it.
AGAIN, A CAN'T DODGE IT BECAUSE A PERSON FAST ENOUGH TO SHIT-STOMP TWO CHARACTERS FASTER THAN A AT THE SAME TIME, COULDN'T EVEN REACT TO THE SWORD, MEANING A GET'S SEALED BEFORE HE KNOWS THAT HE WAS STABBED IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Anyway, I'm done with this. It's obvious that you're wrong, and Itachi wins. You've dodged the argument for too long, so later.
__________________
"Why is everybody so ****ing stupid?"- Kim Jong Il, Team America.
You're still wrong in the sense that Itachi can't feasibly cast genjutsu in the manner you're impling. Granted Shikaku did state that, we have no means of know how Itachi can do it or how powerful it is. Just saying that Itachi has the capacity to do something isn't enough especially since Itachi has had more than enough appearances in the series to showcase what you're arguing but hasn't. Again I could completely drop this argument if there were on-panel feats of Itachi casting genjutsu on multiple people.
You misunderstanding how Bee was able to get out of that genjutsu. Having biju level chakra doesn't make you immune to genjutsu but rather the ability to have the biju act as a companion. Gyuuki is the separate entity that broke him out akin to another person doing it. Besides if all it took was high chakra to break people out of genjutsu then Naruto would have no problem with them.
But according to your previous post, there is an implication that both somehow have more genjutsu resistance than the Kages which I still say is absurd. Furthermore, considering how you're implying that Itachi can cast genjutsu on multiple people, it still doesn't make sense why he didn't do it against both Jonin at the same time since it would not only be non-lethal, but it would draw even less attention than the fight.
Implicit feats. Akin to water-walking, most higher tier ninja would have at least some knowledge of genjutsu resistance. Asuma hasn't shown that but is implied to have it, therefore all other jonin as well as Kages are also implied to have it. And considering Onoki has on-panel evidence of breaking people out of genjutsu and knows how the base-Sharingan works, he would be the least threatened by Itachi's genjutsu.
Capitalizing letters doesn't make the feats any less valid.
Which still excludes Asuma. Also Gai's way of avoinding it ,he was one of the jonin present at that time remember, is virtually the same as Onoki's suggestion in addition to some that A has already demonstrated. As for releasing genjutsu, again there are 5 Kages here so even if Itachi catches one under genjutsu that leaves 3 to fight him and one to dispel it.
The proceeding scan already shows Naruto out of the genjustu. It even states on the panel that he's waking up from it. Even if he was still shaken up, the genjutsu was already oout of it Here I'll post it again and may I ask why you keep using Naruto, a person confirmed to be bad at genjutsu, as the basis for your argument?: (please log in to view the image)
So you proved yourself wrong? Let me ask this then, Since you finally admit that Naruto was already out of the genjustu Itachi cast( A point that I made first BTW) why do you keep posting the Sakura and Chiyo scan? Itachi's only fought those type of opponents and Onoki broke A out of genjutsu from a guy that was significantly more powerful than the Itachi clone so I really don't need to do that. Again you're whole argument is based off of something Itachi simply doesn't have feats for
Onoki broke Madara genjutsu. Madara>>>Itachi as proven by the series itself. And they all have methods of avoiding it since the Kages all know to avoid direct eye contact. Mei's Hidden Mist jutsu in particular make Itachi virtually blind and Gaara' 3rd eye/flight eliminates the risk of direct eye contact.
Where is this speed feat? Only 2 people(maybe 3 for Gai's 8th gate) are faster than A. Kabuto hasn't been shown to move nearly as fast as either A or KCM naruto even in Sage Mode. Itachi being tagged by Sasuke, who was slower than Bee at the time, proves that he isn't no where near Naruto's speed.
A was using v2 and was doing a guillotine drop kick which wasn't using superspeed: this is indicated by several people(including Karin and Darui) seeing A use that attack in normal time. Even if it was as fast, Itachi still doesn't have any means of avoiding either the sand or A's speed at the same time
Minato reacting to A's punch and Obito's Kamui on top of the biju bomb launched at the SA is better than anything Itachi has done. Also Bee knew where Minato was going to port and prepared the attack beforehand: that's not proof that Bee is faster than Minato. Minato is still the undisputed speed king of the Narutoverse even with the recent jobber treatment he's received.
When did that happen? Sasuke and Naruto haven't fought against one another in the recent arc. Furthermore, by that point both Naruto and Sasuke were more powerful than Itachi so your point is moot.
Naruto used "Yellow Flash" speed to avoid A, the 3rd Raikage, and block 5 biju balls. Where in the manga has Itachi been able to tag Naruto when using this level of speed?
How so?
The fact that there wasn't any resistance to Human Path is the indicator that it bypasses physical strength. Naruto already had experience with a force pulling his chakra and knew how to deal with it. Also what does this have to do with Itachi?
Itachi did that after Chibaku Tensei was destroyed, which was only accomplished with help. Itachi couldn't have gotten that shot at Nagato on his own while Chibaku Tensei was up. Otherwise why not do it immediately after saving Naruto and Bee?
Then why didn't he seal Chibaku Tensei? It would've been much simpler and he had the free will to do just that.
A can avoid the Sharingan while moving meaning he can avoid both Amateratsu and the Tosuka Blade.
Dodged what argument? I'll post my initial argument as to how the Kages win. A can avoid the sharingan, Mei can melt susanoo and eliminate visibility, Onoki has particle style that can destroy Susanoo(san Yata Miror), Gaara can fly and block Amateratsu along with pulling Itachi out of Susanoo, Tsunade is a heal bot that has regen and can break a partially formed Susanoo. And Itachi has no defense for the combo attack the Kages can use.
Itachi is not better than Madara which is what you're implying by stating that he can win.
A number cant just be created out of thin air especially if we know nothing of how the jutsu works or is performed..... Therefore the feat cant be used...... Only concrete evidence stands
Thats like going to court and convicting someone of a crime because of word of mouth it cant happen. In order to convict you need unargueable evidence to convict..... The same premise hold true in a debate facts must be shown not speculation.
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Last edited by chasedown on May 11th, 2014 at 07:39 PM
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