After Naruto was broke down into tears. And again, it's not like he was out to kill them; he was only interested in Naruto.
Naruto did put effort in. He tried and failed at breaking Itachi's genjutsu. Plus, Itachi was nerfed since he wasn't actually there to fight them. He was using Pein's jutsu to control some random dude. Kakashi kept saying that something was off during their entire scuffle.
Because he wasn't actually there, like I said. He was nerfed.
So you're telling me that Kakashi somehow surpassed Itachi's progress within two years? Because I would really doubt that.
Again, that's gotta be chalked up to the body-double handicapping Itachi.
True. But if you look at their fight, Obito was having a lot of trouble keeping up at times. And Naruto was mostly RM anyway.
He couldn't blitz her even after her plan failed. I'm pretty sure the difference between BM Naruto and Konan would be great enough for a blitz to occur right off the bat. Do you disagree?
Instead she was casting her jutsu while he was stunned with nothing to hold him back from going right at her face. The fact that she was casting all of her abilities once Obito got down to business proves that he's not all that much faster than her. He also should have been able to easily evade her jutsu at the point where he lost his arm.
Like seriously, if she fought Itachi with the same prep, she'd get outright stomped. All he'd need to do would be put up Susano'o to laugh at everything she can dish out or simply genjutsu the shit out of her, whereas Obito struggled like hell. Even lost an arm and an eye.
Uchiha prodigy >>> Uchiha failure is as simple as it gets, imo. And Itachi was the prodigy of prodigies. One unique and somewhat haxxed ability is not going to make up for three legendary ones.
Last edited by TheTyrant on Mar 26th, 2014 at 12:49 PM
So yeah he accomplished nothing. Also "he's not trying to kill them" is a weak argument for decrediting Kakashi's feats. Deidara wasn't trying to kill Gaara but he still lost his arm. Itachi was still buying time for the Akatsuki and still failed to push any of them anywhere close to a challenge.
Beating Naruto with genjutsu is not hard. He is not a genjutsu guy. And we're given no evidence that Itachi was "nerfed" in terms of physical ability. Kisame remained the same and so did Samehada. Also the Sasuke vs Kakashi fight shows that someone low on chakra can still compete physically and Sasuke was much lower on chakra than Itachi in this fight.
But the question is how substantially. He and Kisame don't seem to be showing much physical fatigue that would make it easier for Kakashi to fight Itachi. And considering Kakashi managed to fight just fine with the other Akatsuki members like Pain it is ridiculous to think he is still as slow as his part 1 self.
Well he both says he got stronger and both Gaara/Sakura prove you can get stronger over two years so...yeah.
Demonstrably untrue and still doesn't invalidate Itachi saying that Kakashi tricked him. Itachi says as much himself.
Not really. They could barely touch and wouldn't have touched him had Kakashi not figured out that his Kamui was connected to Tobi.
He had time to blitz her yes. But the real question is: did he want to blitz her? Given his talking casually to her I would say he did not care to.
Why doesn't Madara just blitz them? Obviously means he can't!
Obito showed that he was amused by her counterattacks and let her use them. And he could have evaded the suicide attack but since he needed her alive he had to port the explosion instead. And the 600 Billion Paper technique is again a question of quantity, not quality. Few people up to that point would have been able to do anything against that move.
His Susano'o makes him a better match up with Konan. But I think Itachi would do much worse against Guy than Obito. And struggled like hell? Please. Obito only got offensive at the very end and shows that he was clearly underestimating her.
Neat. Next time argue feats. The fastest person Itachi has kept up with was KCM Naruto while Obito showed he could do not only that but also fight with Guy, Kakashi, and Bee at the same time. This flat out eclipses anything Itachi has done. And hell he showed the ability to react to Juubidara's attacks.
As it stands Obito's feats are simply better and I would love to see you prove otherwise. Be my guest.
Um, as a matter of fact, that's not true at all. Naruto was forced to use Kyuubi mode and an Oodama rasengan.
The evidence that Itachi was "nerfed", is the fact that the clone was only created with a third of the real Itachi's chakra. Hint: The fact that he couldn't use Mangekyo sharingan. Also, Kisame was obviously NOT at full power. Otherwise he could have used his Samehada chakra healing and his transformation. However, they didn't need to be at full power to simply stall the ninja, which they succeeded perfectly at.
In Naruto, you are stronger the more chakra you have. Of course that isn't including hax abilities like Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, Kamui, etc.(just like DBZ in fact). The clones made of Itachi and Kisame only used a third of each others chakra. I.e. They were only a third as strong as they usually were.
What Tyrant was saying was that there's no way Kakashi, who has shown no noticeable increase other than mangekyo sharingan over the two years. Oh! and he learned rasengan. Those two improvements mean nothing however, because they don't 1. allow him to use an MS technique during a 1 on 1 fight(at least not with Itachi, because he needs to look at someone to use Kamui, and Itachi could easily counter with Tsukiyomi and avoid Kamui), 2. use rasengan in a fight. He's even said he prefers lightning blade.. Not to mention that NEITHER of those improvements have increased his strength, speed or chakra capacity.
Actually, he said that he didn't see Kakashi until it was too late. That could be perceived as any number of things from "you tricked me", to "I can't see well, as you pointed out earlier". Most reasonable, logical thinking people would agree that the latter is the most accurate thing to take away from his statement.
True, but none of the people fighting Obito had genjutsu. Or at least not any that would affect him. Kakashi was demonstrably better at Taijutsu than Obito, and Itachi was better than Kakashi. Itachi>Kakashi>Obito. Also, Itachi is a genius prodigy with hokage level intelligence and reasoning since he was seven. If Kakashi could figure out Obito's ability, then so could Itachi. Either way, Obito has no counter to Itachi's base finger genjutsu.
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How about this? Yes, it's obvious that Obito was toying with her at first, and being cocky, which led to him getting phucked in the ass. However, Konan also outright states that she was faster than him, even after he knew he was in a deadly predicament. This means Konan's top speed>Obito's top speed. The same Konan who was unable to fight on par with base Jiraya. The same Jiraya who died against Pain, who a stronger version of was one-shotted by Itachi.
Itachi would shit on Gai. The only version that would have a chance is eight gates Gai, which would still probably be incapable of handling any kind of Genjutsu that Itachi could easily tag him with instantly. Gai is a TERRIBLE match up for Itachi, lol. Itachi said that you need to be an Uchiha to beat him for a reason. His base Genjutsu is something that only another Uchiha genjutsu prodigy can go toe to toe with. Obito is NOT that prodigy. The only real people that could possibly beat Itachi one on one would be Madara, EMS Sasuke, possibly Hashirama, the ten tails jinchuriki's, and most likely some of the historic ninja like Hagaromo and his children(along with Kaguya obviously). Obito can NOT do anything against Itachi, who has a counter for his kamui and intangibility, a counter for his fire jutsu, a counter for his paths(which is Tsukiyomi which affects all of them at once), and a counter for his taijutsu. That's why Obito showed so many times that he was afraid of Itachi.
Neat. However, you neglected to admit that Obito only fought on par with them because 1. None of them had genjutsu which is the only thing that can get around kamui, or 2. None of them knew the secret to his intangibility. Once they did know, they were able to continuously tag him. Also, LOLOLOLOLOL, don't forget that he was Jyuubito when that happened, and/or had Kakashi's kamui to help trick Madara. PIS is not a feat when someone who should have been able to shit on another character instead fails to sense simply trickery.
Just like with Naruto, it has been shown that Obito is not a "genjutsu guy". Itachi's genjutsu would shit on him, and I'd like to see your attempt at proving otherwise.
So once again Naruto was not forced to exert himself in any meaningful way.
Case in point: Kisame fought off Team Guy. Aside from Chiyo and Sakura breaking Naruto out of his genjutsu, Kakashi and Naruto literally beat him by themselves.
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Nerfed physically means exactly that. Kisame was still described as strong by Guy so why would Itachi be slow? Keep in mind that, using your 30% chakra means 30% everything argument, that a one hundred percent Kisame should have ripped Asuma's arms off when they clashed in part one. And no Kisame not using Samehada to heal means nothing. He never had an opportunity to rely on healing and no real reason to do the fusion.
Then explain how chakra drained characters like Sasuke and Pain can still keep up with others despite being fatigued? Sasuke against Kakashi and Pain against Sage Mode Naruto.
But the kicker is this line of argument will get you nowhere. When Kakashi beat Obito in taijutsu Obito had been fighting for hours without the luxury of an ally giving him chakra. Obito would be so low on chakra it would be pathetic and it was given the only technique he mustered was a simple fire ball. Obito had, without the benefits of Madara's Edo Tensei, been fighting off the entire army the minute they showed up and showed signs of fatigue way earlier. If chakra does indeed indicate physical performance than Obito was obviously not in peak form during his duel with Kakashi.
Other than the fact that both a) he said he got stronger, b) his stats improve in the databook, c) he tricked Itachi, and d) he went from being toyed with an Akatsuki to fighting them evenly. And chakra capacity? Pfft. He went from a week of rest after two kamui's to spamming it constantly. Suffice it to say that that has certainly improved.
Ah yes Itachi saying "you are a skilled jutsu user. Because you concealed yourself with that doton, I didn't see you until it was too late" means that we should reasonably assume he wasn't tricked. I mean references to Kakashi's talents before saying he couldn't see what he did? Clearly meant "I'm blind but still so much better than you."
Neat. None of the people Itachi fought had this so I guess it balances out. And no, that doesn't mean Itachi could figure it out. Itachi failing to kill Obito with Sasuke's Amaterasu means he clearly didn't figure out Tobi's technique. Also the finger genjutsu? Please. The sharingan would see through that. And if you have the audacity to say Obito couldn't see through it because he's never broken genjutsu then the same applies to Hashirama, Madara, and the Sage himself.
Learn to read. Obito is the one who says I was faster than you. If you don't believe me then watch the animated adaption where it is clearly him speaking.
I'd love to see Itachi catch Guy in a genjutsu since Guy states he only looks at Sharingan users' feet. And the implication that the man who is rocking Juubidara's shit would lose to Itachi denotes a case of fanboyishness that is truly beyond all reason.
And yet Killerbee broke out of it handily and Kabuto showed that you can fighting genjutsu by, gasp, not looking at his eyes.
Madara would crush Itachi and you really are delusional to think such an outcome is possible. Madara in one fell swoop of his sword crushed 5 mountains and that is so far above Itachi it is laughable. And Hashirama? Jesus that beat down would be hilarious to watch.
Except not allow Itachi to use genjutsu on him by avoiding direct contact. Which is easy if he lets the Mazo do the work for him.
You mean the fire jutsu that has more offensive power than anything Itachi has dished out? Or the fire jutsu that has more defensive power than anything Itachi has dished out?
Fu blinds Itachi. The rest hurl mountain busters at him that his Susano'o has no demonstrable defense against. And go ahead with the, false, argument that Itachi's Susano'o has taken 3 mountain busting attacks at once. I need some hilarity.
And yet one lived to see Sasuke turn evil while Itachi failed to stop the guy in charge of the villains.
Because it is irrelevant. He also fought them without the Mazo's help for most of what we've seen.
Itachi has no Kamui to allow such contiguous tagging.
Yeah clearly Obito needed Kakashi's help to react to those attacks. Also for Juubito he is sure lacking in Juubi. Almost as though he was back to normal or something.
Obito actually can be a genjutsu guy. He's as good as Kakashi who is pretty good according to the databook. Is he as good as Itachi? No of course not. Are you exaggerating a supposed weakness because you don't have an argument? Yes. Hell I could be an ******* and say that Obito's genjutsu is as good as Shisui's since he controlled the 4th Mizukage for a good deal of time without people noticing.
Ah, makes sense that Naruto using one of his strongest forms at the time and his strongest jutsu wasn't "exerting himself".
Chiyo and Sakura were both sweating when they broke him out of the genjutsu. As you point out though, Itachi didn't even want to defeat them, only slow them down.
Hint: "Hax abilities.". Susano'o was one of them at that point. Just like Pain's paths were.
Obito had been fighting for less time than Kakashi. Obito only started fighting when Naruto did, and Naruto showed up after Kakashi and Sakura had already been fighting the seven swordsmen. Kakashi got his chakra tripled for a moment to use a super powered kamui, he didn't get it replenished.
Obito wasn't "fighting off" shit. He was using his intangibility and his paths to keep away from the fight, which is why he pretty much didn't even get involved until the edo tensei wore off.
a) He said that he had learned a few new tricks, not improved overall physically or chakra-wise, proven by him still only being able to use lightning blade about five or six times a day. b) So did Jiraya's, but he did absolutely no training in those years. The data book raises characters stats based on feats that are revealed or new attacks they use. c) he tricked a 30% nearly blind Itachi. d) Kakashi was never "toyed with" by Akatsuki. He was afraid of them. Pfft. In one fight, Sasuke went from being able to use Amaterasu once or twice to being able to spam it along with Susano'o and new Susano'o jutsu. Does that mean his chakra capacity increase? No, he simply got better at using his Mangekyo, just like Kakashi did.
Neat. None of the people Obito fought had this, so I guess it doesn't balance out. To the best of our knowledge, Obito and Itachi have never fought. Itachi was only guessing at how Obito's intangibility worked. In a real battle, he would have been able to figure it out better and analyze it. Itachi is a master at exploiting his opponents weaknesses, to the point where he could dominate someone that solo'd Naruto and Killer Bee at once without help from others.
Madara has been seen using EMS genjutsu before on Raikage. It's safe to say that, since Hashirama could fight Madara and beat him, as well as break free of Edo tensei(a refined genjutsu as stated by Kabuto) with raw power alone, that he could break free of most, if not all base Genjutsu's that aren't part of a MS. If Hashirama could do that, the sage could in his sleep.
Ah, my bad. I thought it was Konan saying that. Either way, he still wasn't able to avoid being tagged by her, meaning that he wasn't that much faster than her.
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lol, even a 30% clone of Itachi was able to tag someone with genjutsu without looking at their eyes. The real Itachi could easily do the same, if not more, to Gai, someone who has no demonstrable defense against genjutsu.
I was saying that Itachi, or really any genjutsu user, could possibly stop Guy, simply because he's still solely dependent on taijutsu.
Killer Bee is a Jinchuirki. Obito is not. Kabuto proved, like everyone else before him that has fought Itachi, that you can avoid Tsukiyomi by not looking at Itachi's eyes. However, without being an experienced, fully realized jinchuriki, another Uchiha, or someone who has demonstrably overcome Itachi level genjutsu without help from other people, Obito has NO defense against even Itachi's base genjutsu.
Exactly like I said, Madara would beat Itachi. Just like Hashirama could. Thank you for repeating what I said.
Interesting theory. It would probably work if Itachi couldn't instantly seal the Mazo with a single stab, and finish Obito off even quicker with base genjutsu. It would also probably get the job done... If Itachi only had one genjutsu.
No, I meant the fire jutsu that pails in comparison to Amaterasu.
As I recall, Fuu's blinding capacity was limited to unblocked human eyes. Killer Bee was unaffected by it because he had shades on. Itachi is already nearly blind. Not to mention, the thread maker specified Obito, not the edo tensei paths, that are no part of his own ability, and he wouldn't have without Kabuto.
False? lol, last time I checked, when something happened on-panel, it's not considered false. Itachi sheltered Naruto and Killer Bee behind his yata mirror from the explosion of (basically)three biju bombs.
He didn't think he deserved to atone for his sins, which is why he let Sasuke kill him.
What you're saying is that Obito could beat Minato and Madara because he lived longer than them.
But he has Amaterasu to allow continuous intangibility before Obito becomes tangible to port away before Itachi instantly seals him for eternity. Or he could just, you know, tag him with base genjutsu and simply use Susano'o to bisect/seal him.
LOL, so Obito can use the black staffs and chakra orbs in his normal form now? As far as I recall, that's an ability specific to the Jyuubi's jinchuriki. If that's not so, then why didn't Obito use the jutsu negating stuff against Naruto and Kakashi when they were tagging him with Kamui? Hm, seems like the only logical explanation would be that he still had some of the Jyuubi chakra, or simply kept those abilities after it was extracted. Unless you have some scans of him using the sage abilities before he became a jinchuriki... which you don't.
Either way, Obito has no demonstrable defense against Itachi's base genjutsu and Susano'o combo. Prove that he does, if you truly think he does.
Yeah, I completely forgot about the 30 percent stuff. Just read the fight again and was about to post the scan, but then I saw SSJGGogeta's post. (please log in to view the image)
So there you have it folks. Unhealthy Itachi without Mangekyo Sharingan operating at only 30 percent due to his actual body not being there and while holding back can (at the very least) cause problems for Mangekyoless Kakashi + Naruto + Chiyo + Sakura. Honestly, Obito got absolutely stomped by Minato as soon as his weakness was realized. Itachi's not ever losing to base Minato, that much is clear. Maybe Kakashi + Obito vs Itachi or double Mangekyo Obito vs Itachi would be close. Maybe.
Last edited by TheTyrant on Mar 29th, 2014 at 11:37 AM
I think double mangekyo Obito could probably potentially beat Itachi, because he would have a mastered Kamui, for warping anyone or thing he wanted, as well as intangibility for ten minutes and double warping speed for everything. Not to mention that anyone with two Mangekyo's has Susano'o. All of those hax together just might be able to beat Itachi. The only thing he would have to avoid is Itachi's supreme genjutsu, but could probably still do awesome against it just because he'd have two mangekyo's. It would definitely be a stellar fight though, because they would both have counters to anything either could dish out. The better strategist would win in the end, which I think would be Itachi, probably by using Tsukiyomi or some amazing genjutsu.
How exactly? Orange mask Obito is enough to beat itachi and this is RENNIGAN OBITO. I’m gonna day it one more time just incase you didn’t see it. RENNIGAN OBITO. he one shots itachi. Jesus this thread is literally an embarrassment for killer movies.
Why can't kamui hit Itachi? He's not invincible. Plus he really can't be hit while in that phased state. He can push and pull him around, absorb amaterasu, and teleport around. Doesn't rinnegan render genjutsu useless? With that, I think Obito could win this.
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