Cool, so we wish to blatantly ignore a stated feat in favour of a feat which doesn't discredit the first feat.. which was for all purposes said from the 'same' person.
Thats some nice logicing there.
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"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
Hulk in a much weaker form in World War Hulk was causing country-level Earthquakes with his footsteps, without meaning to.
Hulk after a huuuge amp in the Dark Dimension that made him absolutely gigantic, didn't even cause any such unintentional damage on Earth, whereas some moments before that he indirectly destroyed the Dark Dimension from the force of his collision with his wife, while they were both at normal size.
This was all under the same writer. Mainstream Earth in comics has too much plot durability to be destroyed in a normal story.
Odin Force Thor and Bor's fight messed up a few city blocks at best too.
Odin himself headbutting Galactus hard enough to flash KO him just barely outside of the Earth's atmosphere caused no damage whatsoever.
Superman wasn't just punching hard enough to destroy a mountain btw. He was punching hard enough for it be felt down to the Earth's core, and even out in space. Batman's teeth were rattling while in the league's station out in space, even Cyborg felt it from the same room as Batman.
That and what Hulk was doing is about the limit of collateral damage you are going to see from a hero on Earth 9/10. Just the way it is. That's not an accurate reflection of the pressure of their punches though (Pressure itself is what matters afterall, not simply the AOE) Afterall, there were human beings much closer to Superman than Batman was, and they weren't even killed when they should have been, if Batman's teeth were rattling from hundreds of thousands of miles away.
The pressure of Superman's punches was enough to hurt H'el. Who was stronger than Superman, who himself was durable enough to withstand the pressure of bench pressing 6 sextillion tons for days straight while weakened without sunlight. That's the main takeaway.
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Last edited by CosmicComet on Oct 12th, 2014 at 05:25 PM
Despite Supes obviously extreme reaction times, I think that a point can be made for Goku regarding combat speed (not flying speed): Master Roshi, at the beginning of DB, used to casually catch 10 machine-gun bullets from point blank range; now, given the DBZ logic of "higher BP means faster", it surely can be imagine that top tiers DBZ fighters are hella fast.
Anyway, for me:
- Combat speed, fighting skills, energy projection go to Goku.
- Strength, durability and flying speed go to Supes.
Also, I think it has to be said that Goku is way physically stronger than most of people give him credit for (albeit he is not on Superman's level, that's for sure).
-Combat Speed. Absolutely not. Superman has writer confirmed at least attosecond level reaction times. Meaning at that level, 1 second would feel like tens of billions of years to him. No one in DBZ thinks that fast, I'm sorry.
If you could punch at lightspeed, you could throw roughly 300 million punches using both arms from my last calculation. I'm not even convinced Goku throws punches at that speed, but even if you give him that, that's still far below Superman.
Superman has repaired a wrecked Metropolis, with his own bare hands in a few seconds. Metropolis is a New York City sized city (which has about a million buildings), simply stacking the trillions and trillions of bricks together would be a massively faster than light feat. But his task was far more complicated that even that. He wasn't just stacking bricks, he was welding things back together, sculpting buildings down to their original shapes and details, redoing paint jobs, fixing glass, circuitry etc. Goku has no speed feat coming close to that level.
Superman is fast enough to observe tiny individual particles moving at the speed of light. That's a lot faster than simply being able to react at lightspeed, because you are looking at something that's microscopic moving at that speed. Just like its somewhat harder to react to a fly coming at your face at 5 mph than it is to dodge a punch from an average person coming at you at maybe 15 mph.
Hell, Superman is fast enough to move through time-stops, he's done this a couple of times.
-Energy projection, as far as AOE sure, but Supes' HV has hurt things that would no sell Goku's kamehameha.
-Fighting Skills? Maybe. But Goku knows one form of Kung Fu from his grandfather, which is not a practical Martial Art. Superman knows more styles and has a lot more actual fighting experience. Superman also has experience fighting multiple people around his level of physicality, whereas whenever Goku fights multiple people, they are always much weaker than him.
Last edited by CosmicComet on Oct 12th, 2014 at 07:18 PM
Well, as far as speed goes, I didn't know about those feats, so yes, I have to say that Superman is faster.
Thanks for sharing them.
Anyway, let me say that the main "problem" of DB is the fact that AT didn't bother about giving numerical infos and about maths, contrariwise to what happens in comics, and that's why often DBZ fans must resort to non official calculations.
Anyway, just to share this, going by calculated numbers, it turned out that CG Ssj2 Gohan possess a reaction time in the order of tenths of picoseconds, and during the Boo saga (and later in BoG) the characters become even massively faster than that.
So yes, regardless of Superman specifically, they are enormously fast in short range and fighting speed.
Regarding energy projection, I didn't specifically mean that in pure power terms, but more as a variety of options.
Finally, regarding fighting abilities: I know and agree about Superman possessing lots of styles, but you are limiting Goku too much here.
He trained under Master Roshi, Karin, Kami, King Kai, trained specifically in heaven for 7 years and that's a born fighting genious.
I don't think that Superman can match him here, just watch them fight and you'll understand what I mean.
Only under Gohan's training did he gain fighting abilities.
Roshi's was all about gaining strength and speed (lifting, digging and running, evading), as was Karin's test (climbing and catching). I can't remember Kami's besides training to move faster. Kai's was to make him faster with the 10g by catching Bubbles, then it was teaching him the spirit bomb and Kaio-Ken.
Everything was stat training, an energy ball, and a stat amping technique. Goku is a great martial artist, but its basically all self taught. To be fair, the fights in DB are 90% about speed and strength, not fighting ability.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
-Power levels are just unreliable as a whole unfortunately, why they were done away with. They only seem to work when looked at through the micro-level in specific situations, e.g: Goku vs Nappa with Kaioken.
Piccolo's power level was 800k after absorbing Nail. And Frieza's was 1 million after his first transformation. Piccolo did excellent against Frieza's first transformation.
Yet Piccolo had a power level was 3500 against Nappa's 4000 and could barely even hurt him at all, despite the disparity percentage wise being less than it was against Frieza. (That wasn't an all out Nappa at that moment, but when you hold back your power level your durability is supposed to take a dip accordingly, like when Vegeta lowered his power level so Krillin could fatally wound him on purpose).
The sub-picosecond calculation would be a great calc for Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan, if a more powerful SSJ Gotenks didn't contradict it though. Gotenks after fusing showed off and had fun flying around for 29+ minutes. Then when he had "less than a minute left" before he unfused, he flew from one place on the Earth to another, where Buu's house was. So from what I remember, if it was say 45 seconds of time left, and assuming best case scenario that he flew the length of the planet's entire diameter (basically from one end of the visible surface of Earth to the other end), it would have been like a quadruple mach level feat.
If Gotenks had sub pico-second level reaction time then mach 1000+ would have felt incredibly, incredibly slow to him. But we know it didn't. Gotenks was very impressed with his new found speed and was showing off to himself.
-Combat skill isn't really a huge sticking point for me when you're discussing people who can fly and stuff. But with Goku training with those people, you have to realize that he only really learned a fighting style from Grandpa Gohan. Roshi's style is the same, as he taught Goku's grandpa too.
All Roshi and the others did was train him in strength and conditioning and learning more ki techniques. He never added to his hand to hand style that we saw. Everyone that can fly pretty much fights the same way in DBZ, they only really differ in their ki techniques. Superman trained with multiple people that fight drastically different.
If we are comparing how they look when they fight, and being pedantic, then I would have to say they both look pretty bad (in-spite of what we are told about Goku's skill), when we look at how they are animated to fight in the anime/cartoons--either way cartoon supes doesn't have comic supes history anyway. Both show bad fundamentals and constantly leave themselves open.
If we compare comic/manga images it becomes a little bit harder to compare skill even more because still pictures and what not.
How I measure skill is pretty simple, since it gets kinda arbitrary in how its measured in comics.
I look at blows landed vs blows taken, and how people of comparable physical ability you can tackle at the same time. It's an efficiency thing. I would say Superman arguably has the edge there, as he has fought multiple people of comparable physical stats to himself and gotten out without really taking any damage. Whereas the most prominent example of Goku fighting mutliple people is against Cell using Tien's multiform technique, in which case each one was like 1/4 as strong as Goku anyway.
Kami's was using energy more efficiently, tightening up movements and technique to use as little energy as possible and still wreck the opponent. I'm not sure how they did that though. A case could be made for this fight but Superman has too many absurd feats in the mixed up vomit spread they call his continuity.
I disagree.
Power levels are completely fine, unless you use made-up or non canon ones; every power level stated in the manga works flawlessly.
Indeed, regarding Piccolo, I recall nowhere in the manga it has been stated that his BP post merging was 800k; we only know that 1st Form Freeza clocks at 530k and that 2nd form Freeza, in BP units, has a level that "would be over 1,000,000, surely...", directly quoting from the manga itself.
So there are no issues at all.
The calculation about Gohan's speed has nothing to do with flying speed: in fact, as I said before, in DB fighting speed is =/= flying speed and there's no way that DB characters can keep up with Superman regarding the latter.
Example: base Boo saga Gohan says he can cover 1000 km in 20 minutes, so this puts his flying speed at around mach 2.4; yet, Master Roshi reacted and moved his arms so fast he could catch up to 10 machine-gun bullets fired by point blank range, and this is a feat wich puts him above mach 2.4 in reflexes and fighting speed.
It is true that this is not the fastest base Gohan's speed (indeed, DBZ people, when they don't fight, walk around heavily suppressed (see post Boo saga Goku who goes around with a BP of 5000), also otherwise Gohan would be slower that Saiyan saga Goku in flying speed, which is not the case), yet even if Gohan was heavily suppressed, Master Roshi's BP doesn't still come close to the thousand mark.
The same case applies to Gotenks: as every other Z character, he fights way faster than he flies.
(Also, actually, regarding Gotenks' flying speed, he himself said he took a nap: for what we know, it could have been 25 min nap + 4 minutes of flying around the Earth. To push it even more (albeit I don't usually use this as an argument for Gotenks), during Boo saga, thanks to the Yakon's issue, we know that aura is made of pure light, so Gotenks flying multiple times around the Earth was faster than the time the light of his aura from his previous circles took to disappear).
Anyway, besides that, the main point still stands: DBZ characters are very fast regarding fighting speed.
Last edited by Sj_Sharp on Oct 13th, 2014 at 12:48 PM
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