We most certainly DO know what he thinks. He outright stated Mace overcame Sids. We all know what Lucas' intent was when the book and movie were made. He made it crystal clear to us all in so many ways it's not funny. You can claim it's non canon because Disney bought the franchise, that doesn't mean we don't know Lucas' thoughts... we certainly do.
NO that is not a deleted scene. The book expands on what we see on film. Same thing here. If lucas wanted that out of the book... he would've taken it out. He didn't. You know very well he carefully edited that book. It stayed, it's canon.
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Well one thing you probably weren't understand is we both type so much so it's probably I had to take out some of your stuff to make mine fit so you didn't get the full message or confused my stuff with yours.
What canon have I disregarded. If anyhring I'm doing a better job with canon than you are. You're attempting to discredit the Official site, trying to put the books on level or above the movies. You're doing everything wrong. So how do you live with yourself if you do all these things. You place the books above or equal to the movies, you trample others opinions, and say they are wrong even though you know it's all an opinion thing, ask ill thought questions, use straw man arguments to a very high degree, don't use common sense, run away when people respond to your questions with answers that defeat you, and then use profanity and other rude words(yes I use it to) to accomplish your ill faited ends, and are just plain stupid? So again I ask, how do you live with yourself? Well based on these post, you have a fair amount of time on your hands if you can type up these comments some back to back. Most of the ones I've seen from you have been pretty lengthy. Also I have a feeling your running from me. We had a big debate going, and it seems you've abandoned your quest. So I take it I'm the victor then.
I'm not Lucas, so I really can't say without a doubt what his original intent was. I don't have my own I dea on what it is. I only focus on what is now, sense that's really the only thing that matters is the CURRENT information, not something he originally had, or possibly had. What he has ow is what we all should look at. The fact that you don't, is a question I ponder. So that is my answer. I don't know what his original intent was. I don't wonder about it, because it doesn't matter. Also I'll give you some advice free of charge. NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR POLICY ABOUT WHAT YU ACCEPT AND DONT ACCEPT. NO ONE CARES HOW YOU VIEW THE BOKKS AND THE MOVIES. MOVIES ARE GREATER THAN THE BOOKS. NOVELS ARE ONLY CANON WHEN ALIGNED WITH THE MOVIES. SO ANAKIN SHOWING UP WHILE THEY ARE DUELING IS NOT IN THE MOVIE. ANAKIN SHOWS UP AFTER THEYRE DONE. THE MOVIE BEATS EVERYTHING.
if its not explained or shown in the movies then its a lower form of canon if any at all. You think regular people read the novels? No they don't, the only medium of Star Wars that reaches the masses are the films and if you watch the movies, then you will see all the point I have made are correct and Sidious threw the fight expressly to turn Skywalker against the Jedi. If one form of canon contradicts the other then you have to go with which one is the higher level of canon. In Star Wars case the highest level of canon is the movies. If it didn't happen on screen then it didn't happen.
Kurupt you have let your mind become clouded by these conflicting sources of information. Search your feelings, you will know this to be true.
How can it be Canon KT when it never happened in the film?
Assuming that line came from Lucas (and it wasn't instead a line of Stover's which Lucas allowed) the fact that it clearly never happened in the film makes it no better than a deleted scene.
The book can't expand on something that never happened.
Debateable. But I agree Mace genuinely put Sidious on his ass. I just think it was a One off.
As for Lucas's thoughts and true intentions KT, he had 6 seasons of SW:TCW animation to show us that. Heck we've even seen Mace, Yoda and Sidious fight in that animation. And Not Once were any of them portrayed as moving at the kind of speeds you are talking about. Not Once.
So don't cling to this supposed "invisible" speed from a Non-Canon scene when Lucas has made his true and canon speed depictions very clear.
You act like I don't use the movies. That's is the first source I've quoted. I've DIRECTLY shown Lucas outright stating in his commentary of the movie that Mace overcame sids. If his intent was to have sids throw the fight why say that. Wouldn't that be the point you would say, yeah.. here we see Sids throwing the fight. Yet, he says something directly contradicting that. Yet you go, oh yeah he threw the fight, and then have the nerve to tell me I'm not relying on the highest form of canon. Buddy, that's exactly what I rely on. I throw in the book reference because they REINFORCE the case even more convincingly. When Lucas has a book written and edits said book and approves said book, and it also talks about mace winning and how he won. You can still sit here with a straight face and go he threw the fight. It's pretty amazing actually. You literally have next to nothing on your side when it comes to canon, and yet you talk from a position of power. If you honestly think about it, to even argue Lucas' intent was to have Sids throw the fight, and not have one high canon source ever say so, is well, pretty damming.
Why did you avoid my questions? Was it because you know deep down Lucas really meant for Mace to win. All the conjecture and theories you guys put forth has never EVER been backed up by Lucas. I on the other hand have Lucas directing a movie showing mace kicking the saber from Sids and disarming him. We see it, a 5 year old could watch that scene and go Mace disarmed Sids. Correct? Then we have Lucas outright saying mace overcame him. Like literally spot on with the movie, and you have the nerve to say I don't have any highest form of canon on my side? Really? LMAO. Are you serious? I have all the evidence. All the book does is reiterate what we already see. To not recognize that fact is kind of scary.
firstly, overcame is a lot different then overpowered, second Lucas changed his mind a lot about a lot of things regarding Star Wars so he's an iffy source when it comes to this stuff. He also says at one point that you'd have to be Yoda or Mace to even compete with the Emperor, almost making it sounds as if Sidious was above the two of them. So right there he contradicts his own comments.
Palpatine could have killed Mace with Lightning at any point. When Sidious started firing Lightning at Mace after losing his lightsaber, he generated so much power with his Lightning that Mace's blade was being contorted. The blade literally bent back toward Mace's face and would have slashed him if Palpatine continued. The book even goes so far to say that Vaapad is of no consequence; he just lacked the power to defend against it.
Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.
Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.
"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.
Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
With this, we can conclude that even granting that Mace could beat Palpatine in a duel, Palpatine could still kill him with Lightning if he so chooses.
Last edited by relentless1 on Sep 27th, 2015 at 09:58 AM
Two misconceptions I feel I should address is Lucas' remarks on the fight, one comment from the Revenge of the Sith commentary and another from The Making of Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith. Here is Lucas' first statement:
"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."
--Taken from the Revenge of the Sith commentary
If you fail to pay attention to context, this sounds like Lucas said that Mace in fact did defeat Palpatine. However, you need to notice the comment as a whole. Lucas starts off by offering a description on a certain scene, but then he moves on to tell how he fitted details in with one another. But this is the distinction: He describes a sequence of events as the viewer sees them at first, giving a brief background on what sequence in particular he is talking about, but then his focus shifts from what the audience sees to what the characters' intentions are and what they experience and think. The initial comment about Mace overpowering Palpatine only addresses what we as the audience see on-screen; it does not disclose character mindsets, intentions, or motivations. Only the second half of Lucas' statement deals with those character-driven factors by pointing out that he intended for Palpatine to feign weakness as he fired Lightning at Mace to force Anakin into a decision, which also overwrites Lucas' initial explication that Palpatine intended to kill Mace with Lightning; instead, this quote actually confirms that Sidious did in fact feign weakness during his Lightning assault because Lucas revised his original outline for the scene from "tries to destroy Mace" to "pretends to be weak." So from the context of simply a perceivable sequence, no, this does not constitute proof that Lucas stated that Mace did really defeat Palpatine, and from the context of a sequence that was changed, no, this does not constitute proof that Lucas stated that Palpatine meant to kill Mace with Lightning.
The other input from Lucas I should cover is the following:
The actors rehearse their dressing gowns and then adjourn for final costume adjustments, while Lucas and Knoll continue to examine the footage. When Palpatine easily strikes down Mace's three associate Jedi at the outset of the scene, Knoll says, "Look at this—Mace brought the B-team!"
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat-up, he could've beat the Emperor."
--Taken from The Making of Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith
Typically, what is surmised from this quote is that Mace can, under his own power, contend with Sidious with no contextual details or circumstantial factors influencing the duel. I disagree with this translation. All Lucas says is that either Yoda or Mace are required to oppose Sidious on anything resembling even terms. He does not say anything else than that. The novelization of RotS very plainly explicated that Mace's fighting abilities were demonstrably upgraded on account of the very specific circumstances preceding and during the duel. With that said, let me ask this question: Does Lucas' statement refute what the novel narrates? Not at all. You do have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor, because only Yoda possesses the intrinsic power to match him and only Mace possesses a mastery of Vaapad that could weaponize a trauma of the kind that Windu was subjected to.
yes it is, he went more into depth than I ever could, but a lot of what he said is the same thing I've been saying, he just had the better quotes. More specifically the ones for KTs argument about Lucas' commentary
Now, there is no other way to interpret the scene besides the above. Your "side" INSERTED the "he threw the fights" argument (based on pure conjecture) to try and put circumstances that were not even alluded to in the said scene.
Beyond that, without conjecture, one must interpret the above factual information and try and determine if Windu won the fight or not.
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Sep 26th, 2015 03:52 PM
