That is your assumption. You cannot prove it since most Dark Council members are poorly explored in the context of capabilities. But those who are explored in a limited way, usually turn out to be just as capable or better.
You think Darth Thanaton was weak? He is implied to be one of the most powerful Sith in galactic history. He spent decades honing his talents in the Dark Side and building his power-base. He still became a victim of internal rivalry just like many others.
When competition is cutthroat, you never know who will succeed.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Oct 20th, 2015 at 04:16 AM
-Yes. Some Dark Council Members could stand up to Darth Tyranus, but a good number would fall to him.
-In combat? Definitely. He survives a lot on politics and such. Not only did he think the Wrath outmatched him so much it wasn't worth putting up a fight, but the Wrath thought he needed protection from Baras's assassins.
-Weaker than Dooku, yes. That is not the same as being weak on the whole!
Do you think Arkous was Dooku's level? Hadra? Zhorrid?
What have they, or Vengean, or Decimus done to put themselves on Dooku's level aside from being part of the Dark Council?
The Rule of Two is also designed to produce the most competent sith they can.
So are most orders!
There are ToR Sith that surpass Tyranus, but many in the council don't.
Can you elaborate? You're quite incredulous but that's not the same as an argument establishing them as stronger.
And no, "the TOR Empire was a cutthroat environment encouraged to make strong sith," is not sufficient.
Because he had the poor fortune of running afoul Darth Nox, who was one of the strongest Sith of the Empire, Council or otherwise, and .
Other Dark Council members expressed surprise that Thanaton fell, and several were quite impressed with his power.
Thanaton has greater feats than a lot of council members.
Well, yes, as Thanatons' death showed, but the end result did not produce that many more strong sith than other times. There were still Sith who were not all that powerful who got into the Dark Council- while Thanaton managed to die fast despite his power, many of the revolving door Dark Councilors simply were not all that strong.
The tendency for Dark Councilors to die to high-potential apprentices is quite noteworthy, a lot have fallen for that reason, before said apprentices reach their prime. The future Wrath killed Vengean, back when the Wrath was still a fair bit weaker than Baras. Baras was without a doubt a good deal stronger than Vengean, and while he didn't last super long himself due to the Wrath, it says a lot that someone definitely weaker than Baras or the Wrath lasted some time.
The mere fact that there's so much variance and some who clearly aren't suitable for the slots says a lot- with such a huge talent pool, you'd expect that either they'd have no problem with filling 12 slots with badasses strong enough to only occasionally die, or that all 12 slots would constantly be under threat because there's so many competitors. Instead, you tend to have some slots rotate weak candidates repeatedly, and others sit in their chairs for decades without worry.
Registered: Mar 2014
Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
every member is trained to be a Dark Lord and a master of everything, "thirty fit to be Sith in a millenium rather than the tens of thousands of Jedi" and all that.
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Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
To clarify something- The TOR Dark Council at full is probably the strongest Sith/Jedi council we know on the whole, or at least in contention. Which is what we'd expect considering how much it has going for it, how many sith compete for it.
However, it is not full of nothing but people that'd stand at the top of other councils, it is not head and shoulders above other strong councils, and is not what I'd expect of a group that literally had orders of magnitudes more competitors for the role than others.
Right. They find the single highest potential person they can, and then spend more time and effort on that one person than any full order gives (decades, usually), because it's understood that single person must reach the top tiers or die trying.
Honestly, this kind of stance is flawed. You cannot prove this point due to limited content. Nobody can.
This is why I tend to refrain from ranking characters because rankings are subjective in absence of an officially defined list.
You get this impression because you have not witnessed him winning some fights. One does not becomes a Darth in the Empire on the basis of competency in the matters of cunning and politics only; a Sith often finds himself in a situation where his combat prowess is put to the test. An acolyte has to prove his mettle during the harsh trials to be recognized as a Sith but challenges do not stop here; a Sith has to do something grand to be bestowed the rank of Darth. For example, Darth Nox earned the rank of Darth and a position in the Dark Council after defeating Darth Thanaton in kaggath.
What people tend to forget about Darth Vowrawn is that he is old during the events depicted in SWTOR and in the process of loosing his strength. We don't get to witness him in his prime days; he is in the same boat as Darth Xedrix was during the events of the novel. Several sources reveal that heavy (Dark Side) practices eventually take a toll on the practitioner and accelerates his aging process.
Darth Decimus is officially counted among the greatest warriors of the Empire. He is known to have single-handedly routed armies of the Republic in various battles. I doubt that he will be weaker then Count Dooku.
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Darth Vengean is also a super-strong Sith:
All Sith have their masters. The one commanding Darth Baras is the Dark Council's feared military leader, Darth Vengean–a warmonger seeking to reignite conflict with the Republic and finally exterminate the foe that drove the Sith into exile a millennium ago. Vengean was openly outraged when the Treaty of Coruscant was signed into law, criticizing all who supported the peace accord and even quietly disparaging the Emperor. That he survived such insolence is a testament to his power. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic)
Darth Vengean was so powerful that Darth Baras was reluctant to challenge him directly. Heck, Darth Vengean is implied to be a master of Force Drain powers. Lord Draahg acquired proficiency in such powers under his tutelage.
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I am sorry, but you cannot prove that Count Dooku is better then either.
Do you think that I am (or anybody is) in the position to rank these characters?
Darth Arkous was a veteran of the Great Galactic War and replaced Darth Baras in the Dark Council. I believe that a Strike Team assassinated him at some point. Keeping in mind his history, he must be very good, but he cannot be accurately ranked with such a limited profile. Same goes for the other two.
Covered above.
Agreed! But these Sith did not get to experience the cutthroat environment of the Empire and therefore had greater luck in accomplishing their goals and preferred to minimize competition. Interestingly, every Bannite Sith did not become a successor by fair means.
Not necessarily.
And I have to take your word for it?
You simply underestimate TOR-era Sith.
Is there a guarantee that the potential candidates [mentioned by you] won't run into someone stronger then themselves and avoid the inevitable? Assuming that they were born in the Empire, it was just as likely that they would have fallen during the trials.
There is always the possibility of a Sith running into someone stronger and smarter then him at any stage in the Empire.
Darth Thanaton have good feats; but feats don't tell us everything. Accolades actually tell us where a character stands in the grand picture.
Only a powerful Sith have a realistic chance to make it to the Dark Council in the Empire. However, competition is so intense at this stage that many don't last long after become a member. Yes, a member might manage to retain his position for a long time but his demise at some point is inevitable. Dark Council isn't just about muscle, it is just as demanding for leadership abilities and additional talents.
Personal strength may get you into the Dark Council but your survival [will] depend upon additional talents as well. Every Sith is not Dark Council material irrespective of personal strength. A well-rounded Sith is expected to last longer in the Dark Council then others.
This is an issue with the game. It tends to give us an impression that a character is weaker at level 40 then he is is at level 50. Problem is that the lore does not adheres to level-based power progression. Yes, a character is expected to grow stronger with passage of time but levels are not a good method to determine power progression. The lore gives us clues about where a character stands at a certain point, levels are simply game-mechanics.
As pointed out to you earlier, Darth Baras was reluctant to challenge Darth Vengean in a Kaggath. But Darth Baras was still the primary boss for story-telling purpose. Go figure.
Moreover, some fights in the game are utterly lame even though they would be expected to be epic in the lore. It is possible that the Emperor's Wrath II defeated Darth Vengean in an epic duel and then took some time-off to recover from his injuries. We may never know.
The Empire is actually designed to cull the weak from its ranks. This is why harsh trials are compulsory for any individual to become a Sith but the challenges do not end here. A Sith is expected to perform and do something grand to qualify for higher ranks. The Empire also gives the Sith an opportunity to challenge his rival in a fair manner via Kaggath system. Even the Emperor can be directly challenged via the Kaggath system. However, since multiple powerful Sith co-exist in the Empire who cannot be easily killed, the Sith often resort to schemes and politics to overcome their rivals.
You may get the impression that the Empire suffers in quality due to cutthroat competition but this is not the case. Empire is never short on capable Sith in the hour of need.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Oct 20th, 2015 at 01:14 PM
You're still making the mistake of thinking that the upper level of talent increases with a larger talent pool. It doesn't necessarily, it just increases the size in which talent can be found. You're not going to find a dozen Dooku level force users no matter how large the pool since there's only a few on that level born in the entire galaxy every generation.
The one's that aren't strong are usually so for a reason.
Vowrawn was a politician and master manipulator. Probably why he was in charge of the Ministry of Logistics. Mekhis was a genius inventor. That's why she was in charge of science and technology. It's not like Coleman Trebor wasn't a thing as well. Also you didn't mention her but Zhorrid wasn't a legit member. She was brought on because they thought she knew Jadus' secrets which they needed and when it became clear she didn't she got dunked on.
Also it's unfair to judge Councillors when we don't actually have a way to gauge their abilities. Some only get gameplay feats which are invalid. Can't exactly say Vengean sucks when he gets killed in gameplay while fighting 3 high level combatants at once, one of which is the Wrath. Decimus is featless so we cant' point to anything to say that he's a mediocre talent. That applies to others like Hadra etc.
Baras, Nyriss and those two Sith who blew up the Citadel just by fighting. Also possibly that one guy you fight in the Invasion of Korriban.
Doesn't make a difference imo. And personally, when we actually do see Dark Council members in action, they're higher quality than Jedi Council's of other generations.
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Last edited by Nephthys on Oct 20th, 2015 at 04:17 PM
I don't understand why it's so hard to believe some dark councilors are below the likes of kolar. This guy, along with Tiin, Fist, Bulq etc were all called legendary duelist, if there are too many "kolars" around, then this guys can't be considered legendary anymore
There's a flaw in that argument- why are you assuming TOR to be that much higher than everyone else if you're arguing no-one can know?
And... we do, in fact, have some cross-era stuff. There are characters that move era to era. We know how Revan compares to TOR, and some Sith Empire people. We also see Sith Empire people compare with Legacy people, who we see compare with Clone Wars era people. Celeste Morne has traveled through 3 different eras and met a sith spirit from a 4th.
We are not in ignorance of how power relates era to era, at least in generalities.
The fact that Revan is definitely a good deal stronger than most Dark Councilors says a lot- strong sith from other eras remain strong in the TOR era.
I get the impression because he flat-out goes, "Whelp, I've got no chance here. Make it quick, but no beheading, plez," when faced with the wrath-in-training.
He himself admits it. Sure, he can likely hold his own against many fights, but no, his primary power is his brains and policies.
Prove beyond a shadow of a doubt? No. But view it as likely? Yes. Dooku's fought with Yoda and Windu and Anakin, all immensely powerful individuals, and shown himself to be powerful and skilled in return.
But 'very good' is not in question. Agen Kolar is very good. Even Piell is very good.
You're the one insisting that the Dark Council is full of Dooku level people.
So? They gained experience through greater training. That doesn't mean weaker.
Yes necessarily. We're talking about what they aim for here. With rare exception like the Brotherhood of Darkness, which was noted for not pursuing the secrets of the dark side very hard, but the Rule of Two, One Sith, Sith Empire, Hundred Years Darkness, all of these pursued dark knowledge with a passion with the intention of making powerful sith.
Also, you raise the cutthroat environment thing- This means a lot of promising high-potential sith are killed while they're still learning to avoid becoming a threat. That is often a minus.
Am I to take your word that he's not?
Most of the Sith have either inferior showings to his or just less showings period on one hand.
On the other, we have a legendary Jedi/Sith who has lived up to his legend most definitely.
Or in other words, you are asking me to assume that these Dark Councilors are equal or better based on position alone- when the feats
That's how it normally works in real life, a larger talent pool finds more high-talent individuals.
And it's not just Dooku-levels, it's that some in the council are relatively unimpressive. You'd expect the Council to be bunched up with the best level that existed in quantity.
Unless the other orders really are finding the majority of the council-level talents in the galaxy already (which strikes me as unlikely considering how they work), and larger orders just mean more average Jedi/Sith.
Ok, 4 more of the tier, some of who were from a couple centuries earlier.
Every era have witnessed quality individuals. Never doubted this.
However, you should understand that reconstituted ancient Sith Empire surpassed its predecessors in all aspects (including in the aspect of quality of Sith in general). This is clearly implied in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia.
Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire represents the ancient Sith at their finest; no ifs and buts in this case. Even Darth Traya admitted her inferiority to ancient Sith and feared that they will reemerge at some point.
Revan overshadowed everybody in his era [in the Republic setting] and is officially touted as the most powerful Jedi in galactic history. Therefore, it doesn't surprises me that he was [individually] stronger then most in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire as well. Heck, Chris Avellone revealed to a member of this community in a private conversation that Revan could defeat the duo of Meetra Surik and Darth Traya in a confrontation as well. He is that good.
In short, Revan eclipses most in the saga; forget an era.
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Celeste Morne isn't a powerhouse. She is average.
Revan is in the league of Yoda so I am not surprised.
Do you think Count Dooku is?
You overlooked an entire explanation in my earlier response, my friend.
Darth Vowrawn is OLD during the times we witness him in action; he is no longer in his prime; he is logically a mere shadow of his former-self. His situation is similar to that of Darth Xedrix during the events of the novel.
Yoda was not going all-out against Count Dooku. If he had, this fight would have ended differently. Yoda had a soft spot for Count Dooku.
Mace Windu and Anakin Skywalker are certainly among the strongest Jedi of their era. And the latter eventually defeated Count Dooku in a confrontation.
Besides, contending with the likes of Mace Windu and Anakin Skywalker isn't such a big deal. Mother Talzin and Darth Maul have contended with Mace Windu [1 on 1] while Obi-Wan Kenobi, barriss Offee, Asajj Ventress and Savage Opress have contended with Anakin Skywalker [1 on 1]. Count Dooku isn't special in this regard.
Agen Kolar is very good [only] in dueling skills. Don't know about Piell.
Yes, Dark Councilors would be in the league of Count Dooku on average. Many would be stronger as well.
Greater training?
Ancient Sith had to compete with many individuals to prove their mettle. They were also subjected to brutal conditions for survival. I don't think they had inferior training.
In-fact, ancient Sith pioneered and defined Sith training standards. Bannite Sith took cues from ancient teachings. Even the likes of Darth Plagueis were in search of ancient sources of information about Sith related matters to gain superior understanding of the Dark Side.
Your favorite One Sith also took cues from ancient Sith to improve themselves and their standards.
See above.
Again:
The Empire is actually designed to cull the weak from its ranks. This is why harsh trials are compulsory for any individual to become a Sith but the challenges do not end here. A Sith is expected to perform and do something grand to qualify for higher ranks. The Empire also gives the Sith an opportunity to challenge his rival in a fair manner via Kaggath system. Even the Emperor can be directly challenged via the Kaggath system. However, since multiple powerful Sith co-exist in the Empire who cannot be easily killed, the Sith often resort to schemes and politics to overcome their rivals.
You may get the impression that the Empire suffers in quality due to cutthroat competition but this is not the case. Empire is never short on capable Sith in the hour of need.
1. Your stance isn't convincing.
2. And this is my point since the beginning. We don't know how so many Sith in the Empire stack up to the likes of Count Dooku due to extremely limited showings and content. It is officially stated that every Sith in the Empire is a powerful individual but we don't know much about their abilities.
4. My point is that it is reasonable to expect from the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire to produce many Count Dooku level and/or superior Sith in each era because this Empire is designed to produce highest quality Sith possible. Even if there are 200 Count Dooku level and/or superior Sith in the Empire in each era, it is still a small number holistically.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Oct 21st, 2015 at 05:40 AM
Oct 20th, 2015 04:07 AM
every member is trained to be a Dark Lord and a master of everything, "thirty fit to be Sith in a millenium rather than the tens of thousands of Jedi" and all that.
