I would agree with Ushgarak on this one. It is very unlikely that there is matrix within a matrix level. It is a way to try to explain what Neo did. Not a very logical one at that though. I think Ushgarak hit it on the head when he said that they would still reject the matrix on either level. What makes the first matrix different from the Zion part?
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
Yes, but in the majority of the situations they were not freed without assistance. Neo thought, and almost knew, that something was obviously very wrong with the world he lived in. However, if Morpheus never came up to him "Red Pill...Or Blue Pill" who is to say he would have ever been released into Zion. He could have still been doing desk work for the next 30 years.
Concordantly if no one assists the people in Zion to escape into the real world, who is to say they would have gotten out any faster than they would have normally gotten out of the Matrix.
But, of course, there would more than likely be a couple individuals capable of freeing themselves. So why wouldn’t they help the other people get free? Well, whatever is in the real world could have convinced them otherwise. Why? How? I don’t know. I’m just throwing out suggestions. There are plenty of arguments on why there is only one matrix, and not nearly as many as to why there would be two matrixes. I am not saying I myself believe there are 2 matrixes, I’m just trying to think up the best counter-argument possible.
I’m sure if there ARE indeed two matrixes there would be more of a twist put on it. I doubt they would just say “by the way there is two of them,” but I’m not going to completely deny the fact that there MAY be more than one.
I’m just saying maybe it went something along these lines.
The first matrix comes. There is no real choice, it is supposed to be the perfect world. It is rejected by our human minds, and thus unstable. Someone is created to observe our mind so to speak, and see what we need to function subconsciously.
Viola, its choice. But this choice allows people to escape from the matrix into the real world. Bad. So the people that escaped are…somehow dealt with.
Now the matrix is restarted, but this time, inside of another matrix. This way, instead of getting out into the real world, they would be pushed into another Matrix where they only THINK they are free…and now we have Matrix Version 3.
This, although not completely preventing the subconscious rebellion, could limit it by a process of repetitiveness.
If you see a blue house everyday, and it is surrounded by black houses, and you KNOW something is wrong with it…then one day, BAM, you paint the house black, and you think “There we go! That’s better! That makes sense!”. So are you going to think “…Hmmm… Maybe it should be red, so it stands out more and seem better amongst the rest of the black houses?” No. The black house fits now…and your mind becomes content.
Only a select few would still go … “That should be red”
But thats just what I think.
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Last edited by ShadowTheChog on Jun 6th, 2003 at 12:25 AM
I totally disagree. The subconcious chioce to REJECT would remain until actually free, utterly regardless of what obfuscations are put in the way.
The person never even knew he HAD a subconcious choice, after all, let alone that he had made one. Remember, the POINT is that the Mother discovered that people would accept the Matrix IF they actually decided whether they wanted to be in it or not. This was not a matter of being asked if you want to be in one such Matrix, or another such Matrix thinking you are free. It is simply about being ACTUALLY in or ACTUALLY out.
It so happens that decision is subconcious, but it still has to be GENUINE. If tricked that choice has NOT been made, the fault remains. The subconscious makes this decision based on FACT (which, based on the Architect's words, it knows), not on conscious experience. Simply having the conscious experience of being freed wouldn't make a difference. The subconcious would still KNOW. The PERSON would not, but the part of him rejecting it all would.
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Last edited by Ushgarak on Jun 6th, 2003 at 12:26 AM
How should anyone IN the Matrix be able to free themselves without help? We see in the Matrix how weak and helpless Neo is when he’s first freed. His muscles don’t work, his eyes don’t work, and had Morpheus and co. not picked him Neo would’ve drowned.
And I’m with Ushgarak on this one. Unless the Architect is lying Neo (and we) get the true story. It’s about choosing to be plugged in, even if the humans are not aware of the choice consciously. If the Matrix has looped for almost 6 times now, and the real world is only “real” i.e. another Matrix, quite a few people would’ve rejected the virtual real now, too, and as such people in Zion should be aware of it by logical extension.
So either the Architect lies, there can be more than one matrix, but then… we don’t know anything.
Or the Architect tells the truth, whereby there cannot be a matrix within the matrix.
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
I'm with Ush. Your subconcious would still not accept the fact that you're still in a matrix. In all the one percenters, it was the subconcious trying to communicate with the concious telling it that it is in a dream world. Why would it be any different in whatever sublevel matrix you are within?
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I am still not convinced. I think there is only 1 Matrix, but that Zion IS another level of that Matrix. Neo stopping the sentinels is just too big of an event for it to be dismissed as "he's gained a new power." I for one don't believe that. Even if somehow part of his mind was left in "The Source" as some of you have said (This info came from the GAME, mind you so therefore doesn't hold much weight imo) how would he be in contact with that part of his mind unless he was still "plugged in" somehow? I didn't type this message by using my mind to do it telepathically, but you are asking me to believe thats how Neo stopped the sentinels? No way. If the "real world" is actually the "real world" then noone should have special powers there, not even Neo.
Therefore, I think the "Zion realm" is just another part of the Matrix.
I think the Bane/Smith connection and the computer chip passing from Matrix to Zion are other clues to support this as well. I've read the counter-arguments, and they could be exactly right. I just don't completely agree with them.
Some of you argue that if Zion were another level of the Matrix, Neo would realize it and use his powers there....I say not necessarily. Neo doesn't know everything there is to know about the Matrix and Neo is not "all powerful" there, otherwise he could teleport himself instead of flying (would be quicker, and it would have helped in the case of saving Trinity)
Therefore, if Zion is another level of the Matrix, it doesn't automatically mean Neo would have powers there. Maybe it's coded different. Maybe Zion is coded so well, that it fools even the subconscious mind for awhile, so noone "wakes up" from it. Remember, you have to REALIZE "there is no spoon" before you can alter your reality. I think the reappearance of "the spoon" could be a clue as well. Maybe noone realizes Zion is fake yet (each version of the Matrix is an upgrade, and works for awhile, even the 1st "perfect Matrix" worked for awhile). Maybe Neo is starting to realize that Zion is fake, but he hasn't figured out his powers yet (remember it took him awhile to learn in the normal matrix) and the Machines know its just a matter of time before Neo figures out he has powers in the "Zion Realm" so the machines (and Smith) are trying to kill him THERE where he is still vulnerable. Otherwise, why did the machines wait til now to launch their "digging" attack? Zion has been around for awhile...why not destroy it right away? Why? Because it was no threat until they found Neo.
I thought it was strange that some people worshipped Neo in Zion, when he supposedly has no special powers there, could this be a clue as well? Could THEY be the 1% who know that something is STILL "not right?"
I've seen someone argue...
"If Zion is another level of the matrix, then who was the first person to "free" people to Zion?" I say it could have been a program in the form of a person. Remember in M1, Morpheus said it was someone born inside the Matrix who freed the first minds. "Born inside the Matrix" sounds like a metaphor for a "program" to me.
I guess we'll find out in November.
Just some thoughts...not very well organized and for that I apologize.
Last edited by Tomkat on Jun 6th, 2003 at 03:17 PM
Oh yeah another thought....How did the Oracle know Neo was having trouble sleeping, if the insomnia was occuring in the "real world?"
Another thought, how is it that Neo (while in the "real world") was dreaming about things yet to happen in the Matrix, then those events actually occur?
Answer: Zion is part of the Matrix.
Last edited by Tomkat on Jun 6th, 2003 at 03:31 PM
Otherwise, we're going to have to accept a "real world" where Neo has "magic" psychic powers (remote control connection between his mind and "the source"), telekenetic powers (using "electricity" to stop the sentinels), clairvoiant powers (he can "feel" the sentinels as they approach) which is a bunch of metaphysical crap.
I think that would be a bunch of bs, and would be VERY disappointed if that's the case.
Zion as another level of the Matrix makes more sense in the context of the movie.
Last edited by Tomkat on Jun 6th, 2003 at 05:35 PM
It could be that Neo is intertwined with the matrix, the oracle said that he had the vision. Maybe being the one links him to the matrix in a way that he can see, whether in or out of the matrix. I can believe the 2 level matrix theory, but my question is then why would it be so important to destroy the Zion?
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
Well, I would think it is important because
Zion is full of people who are "aware" of Neo and the 1st matrix. Therefore, If Neo shows them the truth (they're still in the Matrix) then their would be havoc in the system (which the machine's don't want)
Just had another thought. Why is Zion's Mainframe Control Center (shown as the Neb was approaching Zion) so perfect, bright-white and clean, while the rest of Zion is dark and dirty. Zion's Control Center looks suspiciously similar to the Architect's room...seems to me that Zion's Control Center is just that... the control center for the Zion realm from within the Matrix.
Last edited by Tomkat on Jun 6th, 2003 at 06:01 PM
Zion's mainframe was in a matrix type setting, if you saw them, they were laying down connected. So It was in a different setting than Zion. I don't think Neo Realizes yet that there are two matrixes, because why didn't he tell morpheus?
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
Tomkat>
How should Zion be part of the Matrix? There is no strange VR access to it. It is PART of the Matrix in the sense, that the Machines have allowed it to exist and be rebuild for probably centuries, to control the humans who do not accept the Matrix. Or do you think all of the real world is a simulation?
Neo could stop the sentinels, since his mind is trapped in the Source. Enter the Matrix tells us that much. That means Neos mind sits RIGHT there, in the great remote control (and since Enter the Matrix is basically sold to us fans, who want to know MORE, too, it is exactly what happened. Remember the Wachoskis wrote the game).
Of course it does get a little strange when we remember that “the body cannot survive without the mind”. But since Smith could copy himself, why should Neo not be able to copy his digital self in the Source. The LINK however (not Link the operator ) between the two still eludes me.
The point is, I think, that Neo is exactly still plugged in in a way. We are finally getting to the part of Morpheus tale of the previous One, who could move in and out of the Matrix AT WILL.
The anomaly in the Matrix is now going beyond its limits. We learn, that all the previous Ones went through the door to Zion, surrendered the “code” and the Matrix was Reloaded. Neo didn’t do that.
We’re on the verge of technology whereby you can move the cursor just by moving your eyes. Implants that let blind people see and so on. The mind is just electrochemical signals. Why not a sci-fi setting where a man in a VR downloads a control program to his mind?
The point is not, that Neo should have powers in Zion if it was part of the Matrix. The point is, that IF Zion was part of the Matrix, 1% (that is 2500 people) would not accept the virtual reality. No one behaves like that. No one is guessing or feeling that Zion is somehow wrong or looking for a way out.
What comes first. A feeling that the world is not “right” or the realisation that “there is no spoon”? The Architect tells us, that the Matrix only works, when a small percentage do not accept it. Even if it is just 1% of 1% in the real world, it would still be 250 zionites who’d constantly feel that even Zion wasn’t real.
And the Machines started digging since Neo was about to once again meet the Oracle, get to the keymaker and then to the Source. The system needs to be close to destroying Zion to be able to blackmail the One.
And the people worshipping Neo in Zion did that to have him protect their sons and daughters on the ships that hack their way INTO the Matrix.
As soon as an unplugged human plugs back into the Matrix they become a mental projection of their digital self. Thoughts become digital patterns, that can be read by a program written to investigate the human psyche.
So, you don’t need metaphysics to explain what happened at the end of Reloaded – and I’d personally rather be without it, too. Basically it’s a question of what thoughts really are. Electrochemical signals that CAN be copied and read.
Revolutions is supposed to conclude the tale. If there was a matrix within the matrix there should’ve been more clues. Of course, it’s possible that at the end of Revolutions we get an end equal to the end of the Matrix, just with our protagonists having realised the real is not real.
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
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I would say that all of us in a way have a "remote camera view of the future..." but some of us have more clarity when it comes to seeing future unrealized events. Neo has the gift. He has what the Oracle called "the vision". It is the Architect that stimulated what he must do with that vision. I think that when Neo moves beyond the visual to the more indepth spiritual/psychological as the A.I. intends then he will be elevated to more higher levels within the matrix beyond the level that Zion possesses. He will soon realize that Zion is just another level of the Matrix reality. It is the Matrix and none have escaped.
Maybe by allowing people to be "released" from the matrix into the "real world"(zion) the matrix is using a sort of control. They could be simulating real life by making it seem that people are born in the "real world"
The thing is NEo never went into the source. If we look at the conversation between Neo and the Architect, the architect states through this door you go onto the Source and the salvation of mankind, through this one, the death of mankind and trinity(not an exact quote quite )
So he couldn't have placed himself in the source. He didn't go through the other door.
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
No, that still wouldn’t work. The Architect tells Neo, that the Matrix didn’t get to work, until the “Mother” realised that the humans needed a choice – even if it was on a near subconscious level. Then 99 % or 99,9% accepted the Matrix as real, leaving a small group that just SOMEHOW knew the world was wrong.
If the Matrix incorporates Zion on another level, what the Architect said is still in effect. You’d have some zionites bouncing around, insisting that the world just is not… right.
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
You see, the thing is that in Enter the Matrix you learn that Neo “touched” the Source, the white light when he went through the door. And since the game was written by the Wachowski Brothers to keep us busy for the time between Reloaded and Revolutions, Neo did touch the Source
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
Gender: Unspecified Location: North Bergen New Jersey
It is exercising control. Complete and absolute control. All of this activity with the humans is to keep the human mind "healthy" thus keeping the body healthy. In actuality the humans are still patched into the system.
As for how the Oracle know Neo isn't sleeping too well... Neo is still "wetwired" into the great mind and the Oracle is a manifestation of the great mind, i.e. the A.I.
Not necessarily. The 1% rejection may only apply to the "regular" matrix (the 20th century "City realm") It may not apply to the "Zion realm" part of the Matrix.
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Jun 6th, 2003 12:09 AM
