I would have to agree, he could have touched the source. I haven't played the game yet, so I am not sure yet. I would have to say though that some way neo is still wired into the matrix. Whether it be that the matrix includes Zion or not.
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
True. It is quite possible that Zion is the solution to the anomaly mentioned by the Architect. When that solution begins to fail (when someone in Zion starts to “wake up”) they are forced (or Destine) to halt the program, modify it (upgrade it) and start the cycle all over again with the improved version.
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I don't play video games but I will contribute to the conversation.
The Architect spoke to Neo in terms of separate personalities between himself and the Oracle. Where in fact the Oracle (the mother or great mother) and the Architect (the father or great father) are one and the same intelligence and personality speaking to Neo separately. Neo has not realized it yet. Zion is the creation of the A.I. and the matrix is the entirety of that creation. The A.I. created the matrix... it isn't the matrix itself. The matrix has several levels of existance and Zion is one of those levels... possibly an experimental level for human minds that function on an extraordinary level apart from the other humans. But there are billions of humans patched into the great machine and so there must be other "Zions"... great holy sanctuaries for more advanced humans. The A.I. will take from those sanctuaries those humans it wishes to absorb into itself for its own evolution and discard the rest. Every several years or generations it will do this and start again. But the Matrix itself evolves and is upgraded... rebooted. So that way there are several successive generations of the Matrix as well. The A.I. learned its mistake with the very first matrix it created. it was a failure because it was NOT a human world. A human existance according to human sensibilities and realities. But it learned from that and created the next generation of matrixes based on human suffering, pain, and apathy.
Neo is the latest advanced human in the "Zion" that he knows of and he is about to be absorbed into the great mind. That is basically the Architect was telling him. Coldly and undiluted.
i don't think there are two matrix's, i believe that neo is simply becoming the one outside of the matrix, as he already has so much power in the matrix, what's to stop him using it outside if he believes it enough!
The only reason Neo has “magical powers” inside the Matrix is because his mind understands that the Matrix is not real.
Ergo, the only reason that Neo could have any "magical powers" outside the Matrix is because his mind understand that outside the Matrix isn’t real either.
Well, the game clearly states that Neo;s mind brushed the Source so that is that.
To say the Architect was only talking about the 'Matrix' part of the Matrix and not the 'Zion' part of the Matrix simply to me betrays how ridiculously silly this argument has become, that you have to specify SO many ifs and buts to make it work, and even then only HALF work, and even then it raises more questions than it answers.
So, let us be clear. It is the whole CONCEPT of enslaving humanity in artificial reality that only works IF the humans have a choice in it. A GENUINE choice. Not a faked, obfuscated or tricked choice, which is no choice at all, and not only to stay in one part of the matrix- to be in a Matrix at ALL.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
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That is what the A.I. want the "free" humans to think. But in actuality they don't know that their "choices" are predetermined by the A.I. They don't have to know that.
But if his mind truly understood that outside the matrix wasn't real, then he wouldn't have slipped into a coma after taking out the Sentinels. He would be just as powerful in Zion's realm as inside the Matrix; unless of course, he doesn't yet fully believe that the outside is part of the Matrix. Like he said himself: "Wait... I can feel them..." So his faith was just based on a feeling, a hunch as opposed to knowing the truth, which is what gives the true power that comes from a freed mind. Just some thoughts, I'm really not sure which way to go on this yet.
__________________ "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways ackowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths." - Proverbs 3:5,6
If, like us, neo thought that zion wasn't real, and he tested his theory, his mind believed that zion wasn't real, so he could use his powers. However, zion is reAL, but because he believed it wasn't he could use his powers there. This excessive stress on his mind then caused him to fall into a coma
MW, it is nothing at ALL with what the AI 'wants the humans to think'. They don't even TELL the humans. That is just how it IS, as described by the Architect. As if they would let ANYONE out if it was in their control! Now, you think the Architect is lying but most of us do not and take what he says as fact at which point your view simply looks silly.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
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I don't think he is lying per se. I think he is talking in riddles and sometimes he is being straight. But he speaks in rapid-fire mode and without much of a break and that in itself is being a trickster. It's a test of perception for Neo. Like the Architect said... Neo was more perceptive that the others before him.
And no the A.I. does not go around telling the humans anything at all. Only tells the ones it deems important enough to tell, but not in a straightforward fashion either. It give but so much information to it's chosen and it is up to them to synthesize the information and assess the meaning thereof. The other patched in humans "live" in ignorant bliss, or blissful ignorance.
Explain to me then exactly how this can have any effect on Neo while he is "outside" the Matrix. How did he have the power to stop the sentinels? If the only explanation you can provide is "he has that power now" i say that's a pretty weak argument, unless you want to believe he now has psychic abilities.
I really hope that's not the case. If the "real world" is really the "real world" than Neo should have NO POWERS there PERIOD. Anything else would require some metaphysical explanation that I think would ruin the whole concept of the movies.
Sometimes I can float and fly in my dreams as well. Does that mean if I believe hard enough I can fly in real life?
No. I hope the only reason Neo has powers in the Zion realm is because Zion is still part of the Matrix.
If Neo's mind is still partly in contact with the Source then he can have influence over the machines. Once we have established that the mind is a detachable concept (which is how the Matrix works after all) then it is not much of a leap to see how that works.
What he is NOT displaying, however, is anything VAGUELY like One-like powers in the real world.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
Not necessarily. He didn't have powers in the Matrix until he realized it wasn't real. Therefore he would not be as powerful in Zion's realm until he realized that it wasn't real. He passed out (after vomiting) when he found out about the Matrix the 1st time, so finding out Zion's realm is fake should have the same effect don't you think?
He's starting to realize the Zion realm isn't real, therefore his "powers" are starting to develop ("sensing" and being able to stop the sentinels) Otherwise he would have to have "psychic" abilities in the "real world", which is an explanaition I don't like, and I think doesn't "fit."
Your right on one thing, pyshic abilities doesn't fit Neo in the outer realm of the matrix, but that doesn't mean that there necessarily mean there is a second part to the matrix. We don't even know for sure that it was neo who set off the emp like power to knock out the sentinels. The Hammer came up pretty fast after the shock neo sent out. Wouldn't the hammer been knocked out as well?
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
Are you sure it was an EMP from Neo that took them out. In the first Matrix, when they set off the EMP, there were no sparks or signs of destruction, the Sentinels just stopped, but when Neo took them out, the put off quite a fireworks display. I think Neo had a connection with the Sentinels, cuz he said he could feel them, and through that connection he was able to fry their circuits from the inside out.
__________________ "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways ackowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths." - Proverbs 3:5,6
I agree that if it can be done, then he can have influence over the machines. But then, why use this big electric discharge to destroy them, why not just use his influence to make them turn around and leave, or better yet serve the people of zion?
"the mind is a detachable concept?"
Nothing could be further from the truth. The Matrix is about input.....overriding the brains electronic signals with it's own "construct" program so that everything seems real when in fact it is not (THAT is how the Matrix works) and according to Morpheus "The body can not live without the mind," that doesn't sound too detachable to me. There has to be some kind of connection, (otherwise they could just use their cell phones to exit the Matrix instead of searching for a landline)
If you want to tell me that Neo now has some extra-sensory "psychic" ability to communicate with "The Source," sense and destroy the sentinels....fine, I believe you, I just think it sucks.
Last edited by Tomkat on Jun 6th, 2003 at 08:00 PM
Partly in contact with the Source how- I guess we shall find out. Open a thread about it. Discuss it. But it is a FACT.
And of COURSE the mind is a detachable concept; if it were purely biological then one could not be affected in the virtual world by what happens in the real. In the virtual world your mind becomes part of the code of the Matrix, later to return to your body.
Feel free to think it all sucks if you want, that is your right, but all I am saying is that Neo's mind has split from his body and this is almost certainly going to form part of the explanation of it all. It sucksd CONSIDERABLY less than Matrix-within-Matrix lameness.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
Did you ever wonder why newborn babies sleep so much? Ever wonder why people tend to sleep less and less as they grow older?
It takes time to build up a tolerance/resistance to this universe (Matrix). (think about the Councilors comments regarding not sleeping much as well)
Do you remember in the first movie when Neo is first rescued from the Matrix? What’s the first thing he does … sleep.
Remember his first day of training?
Tank asks: “you didn’t sleep well?”
Neo: “No.”
Tank: “Don’t worry, tonight you will.”
Then Morpheous goes into the Conscript (Matrix Subroutine) with Neo and gives him his first lesson in magic. When they exit the Matrix Neo sleeps like a baby.
Realization requires a tremendous amount of energy.
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Jun 6th, 2003 06:44 PM
