is it really that the jedi create balance in the force, or are they just preventing darkside users from creating imbalance?
__________________
Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.
Correct, he's stated multiple times that the Force is like Ying and yang and balance in the Force = light/dark in equal measure.
He's also said that the Jedi Order's interpretation of the prophecy is wrong. I'll try and find quotes when I'm on my computer.
@Ush, destroying the Sith doesn't prove that balance in the Force = light, all it proves is that the Sith were causing the imbalance.
Nowhere in the films is the destruction of the Sith said to cause light side dominance, only balance. Which could just as easily mean the dark side retreating from dominance back into equilibrium.
__________________
Last edited by Beniboybling on Jan 1st, 2016 at 04:46 PM
Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.
Indeed he did not- you have that wrong I am afraid, Beniboybling.
The Sith represent the Dark Side. As GL says, in destroying the Sith, Anakin restores balance by destroying evil. Not becoming in equilibrium with evil- which would be completely stupid- but destroying it.
Light Side dominance IS balance- it is the desired state. You don't cure cancer by having half your body ok and the other half cancerous. You get rid of the cancer- then your body is in balance.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Jan 1st, 2016 at 05:03 PM
But it was literally an entire arc in TCW that was devoted to not only telling --but showing-- us what it takes to bring balance to the force on a universal scale.... And both the light and dark aspects were required.
And since TCW is on equal footing with the films in terms of canonicity, it's hard to just dismiss it... Especially given that it is also some of the most recent evidence we have on the subject(and typically the most recent info=the most canon.)
Thoughts?
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
'Recent' is not actually a qualification for 'more accurate', especially when it's from more subsidiary material. No matter which way we look at it, the films are the more important thing to consider.
The TCW plotline is the one that's out of step from the mainstream. It really can only be seen as in error, or as an in-universe philosophical position that is incorrect. Otherwise you actively derail the plot- or even the point- of the films.
TCW had a ship enter hyperspace in atmosphere/near high gravity too- the possibility of which would make several Star Wars scenes ludicrous; why does Han not just do it when escaping Tatooine or the Death Star? It's prone to error.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Jan 1st, 2016 at 06:21 PM
Indeed, there is no reason why someone cannot make new creative interpretations, but when you have two in ostensibly the same continuity that appear to contradict, for continuity purposes you pretty much have to choose which one you are going with, and I think the films are always going to win that one. I certainly think TFA is in that vein (though we shall see, of course).
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
yeah but when those new interpretations are canonized, by default, it's damn sloppy.
__________________
Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.
OK ye of little faith, those quotes I promised. Read and behold your folly:
"The overriding philosophy in Episode I—and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter—is the balance between good and evil."
-George Lucas, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999
"The idea of positive and negative, that there are two sides to an entity, a push and a pull, a yin and a yang, and the struggle between the two sides are issues of nature that I wanted to include in the film."
--George Lucas, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays
"The Force has two sides. It is not a malevolent or a benevolent thing. It has a bad side to it, involving hate and fear, and it has a good side, involving love, charity, fairness and hope."
-George Lucas, Times Magazine, 1980
"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in 'Star Wars.'"
-George Lucas, Los Angeles Times, 2002
I'd also add that TCW is Canon because the project was created by Lucas, who was directly involved in its production. And Lucas isn't about to allow a viewpoint on the Force contradictory to his own by made canonical.
Yes the Sith represent the dark side but you are again assuming that eradicating the Sith would result in eradicating the dark side. This is nowhere stated, it is an assumption on your part. Simply because they are the poster boys doesn't mean they embody it in its entirety, merely its attempt to dominate the light side.
What the dark side embodies i.e. malevolence, anger, hatred, fear arguably exists in all forms of life. You can't eradicate it, only balance it out with positive forces, forces i.e. good, that need "bad" to exist.
__________________
Last edited by Beniboybling on Jan 2nd, 2016 at 12:13 AM
the existence of evil is not synonymous with the sith. one is a fact of human nature and the other is an ancient death cult.
GL said that anakin brings balance to the force by destroying the sith.
__________________
Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.
welp...one thing we can agree on is that it's NOT all that simple.
__________________
Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.
And yet in none of those quotes does GL say what you said he did- that Light and Dark have to be there in equal measure. Don't try and pull that 'folly' nonsense when you can't even back what you said; the 'ying/yang' line is just one of several sources he mentions- like God and the Devil, which is from a mythology not remotely about equal measures- where mythological sources have two competing elements. You keep seeing 'balance between good and evil' and then just assume in your head that it's about having equal amounts of each, which is simply a clumsy way to read it, particularly with everything else mentioned, where it is clear that Balance is about good STOPPING evil.
The point remains the same- it is the Light Side that brings balance. Go back and read all that stuff again about symbiosis vs. cancer. Balanced is equilibrium; it is not the even matching of symbiosis and cancer, it is ALL symbiosis. Whatever the desirable state of affairs is, it is the Light Side that brings it. To have that balance, the Dark Side must be opposed at all times. You can't have 'too much' Light Side, because it is the Light Side that puts things in the correct position; the Dark Side buggers it up.
It's such a ludicrous idea that we somehow need to tolerate a sufficient amount of evil- where is that reflected in the films at any point? What would be the use or benefit of it? How would it be, in any way, a desirable state of affairs? ALL of the films are about the aim of good triumphing over evil. What, are we meant to think that if the Rebellion wins there will be 'too much good' now? Are we meant to think that force users should strive to use an equal amount of light and dark side, or is it exceptionally clear that the only desirable outcome is to reject the Dark entirely, else people will suffer? The entire thrust of the series is about the undesirability of evil. As soon as you start talking about there being a need to have an equal amount of good and evil, you have the very fundamentals of the entirety of Star Wars wrong- and then you start misreading GL comments thinking they say what they do not- and he has never said about equal measures.
The 'destroy evil' line is from GL- ghere's the quote:
"Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."
Obviously it's not literal if you want to go down the 'all humans can have some evil in them' route but that's being pedantic; he meant it in the sense of taking out the forces of darkness (as he applies it to Anakin).
Regardless of what you say what GL would and would not allow, the TCW plotline is contradictory- it is the only one saying you need even amounts of each side and that Light Side dominance is undesirable, whereas GL makes it clear that the Light Side victorious is what brings Balance. That's just something that has to be dealt with when talking continuity. You can go with one or the other but not both. The films are always going to represent the theme of evil needing to be destroyed by good. That one TCW story is the weird outlier.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Jan 2nd, 2016 at 09:39 AM
Alright, Ush. Let's not lose our heads. Anyway as I understand it your main points of content seem to be:
1. The dark side is a cancer that needs to be eradicated.
2. The light side is clearly made out to be an agent of balance.
The first point is contradicted by the fact that Lucas states that the dark side/evil etc. "need to be there" - they are necessary elements of an equation. A cancer is not necessary, it does not need to be there. It not only needs to be stopped, it needs to be destroyed completely or the subject will die. This is not the case with the dark side.
You talk about "balance" and "equilibrium" and yet completely fail to engage with the definitions. The definition of balance is to bring into equilibrium, and equilibrium is according to the English dictionary:
a. The condition of equal balance between opposing forces
So when Lucas says balance i.e. equilibrium between "good and evil" he can only mean "equal balance between opposing forces [good and evil]". Not the light side in dominance, that would be the antithesis of balance. More importantly however is the fact that evil is key aspect of this interplay. Simply put when you talk about symbiosis, the dark side is part of that equation. You can't brand the DS as a cancer because that removes it from the equation that Lucas has explicitly lain down.
Yes clearly bringing balance to the Force involves stopping the Sith and the dark side, but that is only because by its very nature the dark side seeks to dominate, ergo to cause imbalance. In therefore must be, as you say, opposed at all times, but not by eradicating it, only containing it. It's the difference between stopping and destroying it.
You claim that my stance is somehow invalidated by the fact that the light side is an agent of balance, and the dark side of imbalance. But it's made clear in the Mortis arc that there is no contradiction, the Daughter is clearly an agent of balance in support of the Father, and the Son of imbalance in opposition to the Father, but they are still capable of living in symbiosis if the Son is kept in check, and any attempt at dominance by him opposed. The Daughter on the other hand does not seek to dominate, as it would be against her LS nature, and nobody wishes the death of the Son until it is absolutely necessary.
Now on to the Lucas quote, no it is not literal, but I am not being pedantic when I say evil exists in all things. I'm making a fundamental point. We are told explicitly that the Force permeates everything and exists in all life, and we are also told that the Force manifests in two forms, the light side and the dark side. Ergo. the light side and more importantly the dark side are in all living things.
Or rather everything has a dark side. In TCW's Yoda arc we again see this concept explained. Specifically the part were Yoda must confront his hubris i.e. his dark side. If you haven't already watch the scene, cba to quote it:
Yoda doesn't defeat his dark side by destroying it, but by accepting it's existence, but also accepting that it has no control over him. You talk about how "tolerating a sufficient amount of evil" is "ludicrous", but you say that as if we have a choice. Evil exists, it can't be eradicated. You beat evil by accepting it's existence, but also that it has no power over you. Not by try to kill it like a cancer, which can only be achieved by pretending it isn't there. That in particular is what Yoda comes to terms with when overcoming his hubris. Because that is what pretending we can all be pure, bad free people is, hubris.
Dark Yoda also says "Part of you I am, part of all that lives." From this we can infer and from that fact even the greatest of the Jedi has the dark side in him, that the dark side is indeed in all living things. So when the Sith were destroyed the dark side would still have been there, everywhere and in force, just not dominant.
__________________
Last edited by Beniboybling on Jan 2nd, 2016 at 11:29 AM
Look, check out the making of... documentaries of the PT. Lucas explained it many times that light=balance. Not light and dark in equal measure. He's said this many times and quite explicitly.
Here's one of his quotes, if that is what you wanna do:
"Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."
KMC Community Forums
Jan 1st, 2016 04:33 PM
