I have absolutely no idea what this thread derailed into, but it looks like a dinosaur poop pile... F*cking hell...
Alright lets see...
@Surter and ArtificalGlory: I believe that the woman who got knocked to the ground, no matter her intentions (as long as she didn't actually commit any actual violence herself) is still a victim. Why do I believe this? because even if she went to the rallies with every intention to disrupt the opposition's speeches, having a dude twice her size in every which way imaginable king hit her and leave her on the ground is not the proportional response to anything she personally did.
In this case, unless you can present direct proof that she herself actually did harm someone, then that self defense card gets tossed out he window. The facebook rhedoric aside (which is far from proof she sought to actually physically scalp 100 Neo Nazis) then what excuse did that dude actually have to hit her? To him, he could have hit anyone wearing black and red, even a child or an elderly person, and the excuse would be the exact same thing, even if it's just a bystander in the wrong place at the wrong time. However, even if she had of done something, she is STILL a victim. Being a perpetrator is not mutually exclusive to being a victim of another crime. I think you are trying to say that she had no moral superiority over the dude that hit her. Here all I can say is that I disagree, but that is my opinion.
@Robtard and Bashar Teg: Please, guys, don't ask for unreasonable levels of evidence, then turn around and say you don't see it. That kind of stalling tactic does nobody no favors. Even I, with my coke bottle glasses, can see that bottle in the pic. That being said, as I mentioned, subjectively, I am in agreement with you both, if only because I believe in innocent until proven guilty, and as far as I can see, even intent does not constitute what she copped. She never got the chance to do anything before being smashed to the ground by a dude twice her size. That hit could have legitimately killed her. Here in Australia, we have One Punch laws for a reason, because all it takes is one bad hit to be fatal, and she could legit have really been killed here.
But beyond all that, I have a fundamental dislike for facism as a concept. That concept was responsible for the most destructive war known to man. It gave rise to a dangerous ideology, a mutation of classism and racism so profoundly evil that it, for a brief time, united almost the entire human race against it, because even if Hitler and his SS didn't see the faulty logic behind it, everyone else certainly did. Those who cling to that ideology today have not learned histories lesson, and are doomed to repeat that failure. No different that extremists of today, I fear that if people with that kind of mentality ever did gain real political social, economic or military power, then we as a species really will end up with an apocalypse.
__________________
"I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds..."
Last edited by Darkstorm Zero on Apr 20th, 2017 at 11:08 AM
@Darkstorm Zero: I agree, she is indeed a victim of assault. Still, if it turns out she was throwing bottles, then you must keep in mind that just as one unlucky punch can kill someone, getting hit by a glass bottle can do the same. I disagree that her comment about scalps is not indicative of a desire for violent confrontation. If I told you I was going to scalp you, you'd almost certainly take that as a violent threat. And if we replaced the word 'Nazi'(or who she labels as Nazis, anyway) in her comment with virtually any other group of people, nobody would even be arguing this.
About fascism, yes, it's an extremely destructive ideology, but most of these Antifa types seem to be communists which is just as destructive. Communism is little more than red fascism, and if communists got their way, untold millions would die.
__________________ And from the ashes he rose, like a black cloud. The Sin of one became the Sin of many.
But she did commit violence, or intended to, and that intent was much more than a Facebook post.
Look at the picture with the bottle. Look at how she is holding it. If you wanted to use a bottle as a weapon, wouldn't you grab it by the top part, that is more thin? Makes it easy to swing at people. I would be quite interested to hear your theories as to reasons she could be doing this during some violent rally that didn't have a thing to do with violence. One good whack with a bottle could seriously injure or kill someone.
Also she definitely does not have any moral superiority over the dude who hit her. She showed up to start shit. She was seen wielding a weapon. In the video her body language seems to show she was about to throw a punch at someone else and then got clocked. This was a mob fight, she wasn't running from it, the video before she gets hit doesn't show her trying to flee the violence.
Then she also flat out lies, says she got kneed in the face several times, etc. Says she had a cut across the bridge of her nose that somehow magically healed overnight because you can't see it in the interview with her.
So yeah, I think it's safe to say she isn't morally superior to anyone involved.
This should play into the moral superiority thing. This girl is part of an anti-fascist group that displays fascist tactics. That is another thing that negates her having the moral high ground over anyone there.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
Last edited by Surtur on Apr 20th, 2017 at 12:05 PM
I mean it's getting ridiculous because we've seen her posts, we've seen her looking ready to hit someone else before she gets hit, we've seen her wielding a friggin deadly weapon, and yeah a heavy glass bottle is a deadly weapon. Do we need to see her smashing in some dudes skull with it to be satisfied? Cuz that's stupid.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
I never said it wasn't indicative. However, unless and until she herself performs such a violent act, who are we to make the assumption that it really is anything more than metaphorical rhetoric? None of us are psychic, we can't know what her intention was. This fact alone negates everything to do with whatever ideology she was targeting because ideologies don't matter to that point. The only point I care about was that she was targeted, and struck, and she hadn't done anything yet. Legitimizing a pre-emptive strike for any reason in a civil case like this is a Pandora's box I'm not willing to open, and nor should anyone else.
As for ideologies... as far as I'm concerned, political and religious ideologies are among THE founding problems our human society world wide has to deal with. It has been a problem ever since the earliest cultures formed societies, and people have fought killed and died for those ideologies ever since. If I were to break that down, it becomes people have killed over beliefs, by the billions for tens of thousands of years. And to me, that screams of stupidity, because in that sense, nobody is absolutely right. Facism is evil, yes, but it's a recognizable evil. Communism CAN work when implemented correctly, but like any other marginal ideology, when implemented poorly, you get civil war without end, or the other extreme - despotism.
EDITED:
But Surt, you can't possibly KNOW that for certain. Unless you read minds, you can't claim that you know, for a fact, she set out to get smashed into the ground, or claim 100 actual physical human scalps. I'm not saying she didn't go out to be disruptive, I'm saying she should not have been hit UNLESS she actually did something.
I answer this below, but I'll say it again. I am three times her size and weight, but if I was her size, you'd better believe I'd pick up a weapon in the middle of a deadly riot. I'm not gonna get killed on the street because some goon disagrees with my ideology, to hell with what it looks like on camera. I would eat the consequences later, certainly, but in survival mode surrounded by people who could snap me like a matchstick, I'll do what I have to to get the heck out of that warzone. But thats me.
The actions and beliefs of a group does not negate the rights of the individual. She hadn't done anything yet, and yet she got plastered on the road by a legit criminal whom to her was as big as a gorilla. That alone makes her a victim. Forget ideologies for a second, because no matter whatever else may be going on, no matter her INTENTIONS, if she has yet to actually PERFORM criminal action, then yes, she can claim moral superiority. Does she not have the right to go to a rally without getting mauled by a cab robber? I would say she does.
On the other side of that same coin, even if she DID do something, and not just intend it, that STILL does not negate her status as a victim.
No Surter, what that is is not running on an assumption first and judging her actions before she actually made them. I don't know about you, but if I was like a third of my actual size, like she is, in the middle of a very serious riot, you'd better believe I would pick up the nearest blunt instrument and beat my way out of that warzone if I had to. At that point, I may not be a victim, but at least I would be alive. That said, I would also eat my consequences, but I will make sure people know WHY I did what I felt I had to do.
__________________
"I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds..."
Last edited by Darkstorm Zero on Apr 20th, 2017 at 12:16 PM
Indeed we are not psychic, therefore we should assume that while her statement was obviously not literal, it definitely belied her intent for physical confrontation. Now whether she ever made good on that intent or not, we don't know(least I don't). Was the picture with her holding the bottle taken before or after she got punched? Either way, ANTIFA, Black Bloc, and similar groups have no problem with opening that Pandora's box. I do, however, agree with your idea that ideology doesn't matter in this particular case; she was assaulted and that's a fact.
Well, yes, I suppose that's just a by-product of our intellect. A civilized life is the product of a primitive death and all that, but enough of my musings. Communism is evil, too. With sufficient thrust pigs CAN indeed fly, but that doesn't make it a good idea. In the end, just like communism, it inevitably ends up in a nasty, bloody mess.
__________________ And from the ashes he rose, like a black cloud. The Sin of one became the Sin of many.
Last edited by ArtificialGlory on Apr 20th, 2017 at 12:23 PM
Talked about getting nazi scalps, is then shown appearing to get ready to hit a guy before getting hit, and is shown wielding a deadly weapon.
Okay but here, she is the goon lol. Antifa are the goons here. That needed to be said. As for the rest, at no point did she make any attempts to flee. We have different pictures, some with weapons, some without. The punch seemed to happen after the bottle incident, since there is a point where she has her face covered, but not for the punch.
So she is in the thick of it, and doesn't leave. Even after getting punched she kinda just stands there. There was a clear route to escape, but she doesn't. I am not psychic, but based on her actions I can only conclude she wanted to be there in the thick of it, and I can look at her Facebook post to see why: she was nervous, but determined to get some scalps. In other words, determined to f*ck up some nazi's. That is why she didn't flee, IMO. Plus like I said, if you watch the video clip I posted on page 8 or 7 and go to around 2:05 when she gets hit..look at her body language. This isn't someone scared, she seems excited.
Someone needs to tell Antifa this.
But again: they went there just to start shit lol. She DOES NOT have the right to do that. People have the right to protest. They do not have the right to get violent or even block entryways, since none of that behavior is peaceful.
She didn't show up for some innocent peaceful protest. If she had wanted to do so she wouldn't of come with Antifa douchebags.
It brings context to the situation and gives us an idea on her character. Media is portraying her as some innocent victim. That's not true. That is what bugs me the most, because since she is Antifa, it almost is like making Antifa itself the good guys and the victims. That is hilariously untrue in every sense of the word.
I don't know about you, but if I was small and weak I wouldn't attend an event intending to commit violence as part of a group known for committing violence. If I willingly put myself in a dangerous situation because I'm a fascist who intends to commit violence...that's all on me. The solution here is to not be a fascist who shows up just to disrupt events because you disagree with those holding it.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
Last edited by Surtur on Apr 20th, 2017 at 12:44 PM
Also wait, looking at the picture again, in the middle..it sure looks like she is holding some kind of object and it's not the bottle she has later.
So we now have shots of her apparently holding different weapons at different times, one when she is in full Antifa mode with her face covered. This does not seem like a timid woman just trying to protect herself from the mean men around her.
Rather it seems like a stupid person who played a stupid game and got a stupid prize.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
Last edited by Surtur on Apr 20th, 2017 at 12:53 PM
Two wrongs never make a right, ANTIFA should not have gone there with the intent to start a physical confrontation, and the Trumpers/Facists/Neo Nazis or whomever the opposition was should not have answered in kind. Let the cops sort out the shitstirrers, that is what they are there for.
Again, that operates under the assumption she would have hit the guy. Until she DOES hit the guy, she remains innocent of that crime. As for the bottle, I already addressed that previously.
After getting king hit like that, should we assume she was in shock? Perhaps even concussed? Because those would be reasonable assumptions when someone that large hits someone that small in that fashion.
And again, I am asking you to make the distinction between the group and the individual here. I'm not saying the ANTIFA GROUP didn't f*ck up, because they certainly did f*ck up. But SHE, despite her rhetoric on Facebook or twitter or wherever it was, unless she actually DID do something wrong outside of just being there bearing the flag or the colors, then no. Guilt by association is a bull$h!t excuse, and those who use it get no points from me.
Both sides are guilty of breaking this rule. Don't shift the blame to one side over the other now.
Now, hold on. From what I understand, a protest CAN have counter rallies by opposing parties. We do a smaller version of that here on the forums, it's called a debate. People have differing opinions, beliefs, ideologies and faiths. Personally I feel these can all be resolved peacefully, or at least agree to disagree. Not everyone is so reasonable however. In this case, both sides were flinging $h!tt at eachother long before physical blows were thrown.
In this case, she is. Because she had not performed any criminal action before being targeted and struck down. Look, I get it, you don't like the group, fair enough. I don't like either group to be perfectly honest. BUT, to demonize her for things she hadn't done, or intended to do, even if you think of her as a reprehensible person, even if she does do porn, EVEN if she has hairy armpits EVEN if she identifies as a member of a group you despise on any ground... None of that is an excuse to attribute the sins of the group or it's leaders to her, simply because she believes in their cause. I'm sorry Surter, but objectively speaking, in this case, she was someone struck low when she should not have been. The guy who hit her jumped the gun way too soon to justify any of that. I'm not even American, nor have I been there, but I know well when someone is guilty or innocent. And intent to do something is vastly different from actually having done it.
For her, it was about following the ideology she believed in. She is certainly no ANTIFA leader, and doesn't know all the backroom dealings or intents of the leaders. From what I've seen she probably wanted to show her support for her group. I tend to try and see the best in people, I dislike the idea of assuming the worst right off the bat. I'm old, but not so jaded and cynical that I hate the world that much yet.
Okay here is where you lose me. We can't make assumptions on what she planned to do based on Facebook posts, but you can make assumptions about why she behaves the way she does? She has not once said she had a concussion, and keep in mind this woman is asking for 45 grand in go fund me, she talks about her "injuries" suffered, no concussion is mentioned. Says she got kneed in the fade, we do not see it and she has zero bruises.
She talked about intending to engage in violence. Shows up with a group known for committing violence. We have multiple shots of her with weapons, and not even the same weapon.
Okay, but you understand the issue here is that people here(and in the media) are behaving as if both sides aren't equally guilty.
Okay and nobody said you can't have a counter rally. But having a rally is not akin to showing up specifically to start shit. She did lol. You can say she was never caught on film smashing a dudes head in, but her FB post speaks volumes, her not getting out of the thick of it despite plenty of opportunity speaks volumes.
When I say innocent I am not talking in terms of legalities. Just that she, as a person, is not innocent. Period. She came there to start shit and you came make up any excuses you want, blame her having weapons on self defense, but the simplest explanation tends to usually be the correct one. With her FB post, it seems more likely she intended to commit violence with the weapons as opposed to merely being a poor timid girl trying to defend herself.
If we didn't have her post plus pictures of her holding different weapons at different times it would be different. So you can say she didn't commit an actual crime, but nah, that isn't what moral superiority is about. She doesn't lack moral superiority just because she doesn't have a rap sheet. Just showing up with Antifa negates all notions of moral superiority.
Lol what? She doesn't know the backroom dealings? WTF? Why does there need to be her involved in backroom dealings? Antifa are the ones who started shit at a rally at the SAME place just like 2 months ago. To suggest she wasn't aware of their nature is, I'm sorry, just utterly asinine.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
Last edited by Surtur on Apr 20th, 2017 at 01:28 PM
There is a difference between determining intent and weaponizing that against her as a justification for a king hit to the dome, and determining patterns of behavior for the purposes of examining her personality. One is an attempt at justifying the morality of assaulting her personally, the other is merely a gauge to see where she actually morally may lie as a person. As for the go fund me.... Thats up to the people wether or not they think she deserves the money. I'm not donating, but then again, i'm not telling others to do so or not.
She talked about scalps. In a metaphorical sense that could mean anything from moral victories to out debating literally 100 opponents to physically literally scalping 100 Nazis and anything in between. We don't know and neither do you. We have her picking up objects in the middle of a riot. Until you see her physically use those weapons, that is ALL you have.
Because the media isn't attributing the sins of sides here. Innocent until proven guilty is still a founding principal of democratic law, and individually, she, personally, has not done anything criminally or morally wrong, Unless rhetoric is somehow moralistically bullshit and free speech is just a dream. One has to take responsability for what they say, true, but not for everyone elses subjective interpretation of those words.
Her FB post is open to interpretation, unless you really believe that she literally can scalp 100 men. And no, again, you are attributing the MO of the group to the individuals.
Heh, unless we are talking about infants, then I believe no person on this planet is a paragon of pure innocence. Then again, we don't judge people based on that either, at least not other adults. However, you are trying to marginalize her and attribute her to the group you hate. Which is not correct. You need to judge her based on what we KNOW to be the truth and only on that. What we know is that she attended the rally under the ANTIFA flag, we KNOW she got king hit by someone from the opposite camp, and we KNOW she had a potential makeshift weapon in her hands. These are the facts, and they are undisputed. What is in dispute, is her intentions, and the reasoning of the guy who hit her. Both are subjective, and both are far outside of the scope people will be able to agree upon.
I didn't say she was unaware of their NATURE, Surter, I said she is not aware of the ANTIFA organizers intents at any one time or rally. Can you prove she was there for the previous riot? Can you actually say, with real certainty she knew shit was going to go down the way it did? You are making a lot of claims here, that's not my fault.
I saw some shit that the hairy porn girl was shoving m80s into bottles to make some makeshift frag grenades or something. Can this be confirmed, or denied? If it's true that's pretty messed up, you could kill someone doing that.
__________________
Besieged by countless foes, his eyes they are aglow, longing for the fight. He stands upon a mound, doesn't aim the throw, just lets the hammer fly!
i saw the same on imgur. as far as any valid news sources? no.
but surtur will take that as proof that it happened, because liberal media. very convenient.
__________________
Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage.
Guy should be in jail for hitting her, but let's be honest. her having that bottle likely had very little to do with self-defense.
__________________ posted by Badabing
I don't know why some of you are going on about being right and winning. Rob and Impediment were in on this gag because I PMed them. Silent and Rao PMed me and figured I changed the post. I highly doubt anybody thought Quan made the post, but simply played along just for the lulz.
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