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Evolution vs Creation
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S_W_LeGenD
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Origin of Life = Creation
Diversity = Evolution

Old Post Jun 30th, 2017 07:22 AM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Origin of Life = Creation
Diversity = Evolution


That's not the claim by many creationists, though. They claim everything was created exactly as things are today, which is obviously willfully ignorant.


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Old Post Jun 30th, 2017 01:08 PM
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S_W_LeGenD
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
That's not the claim by many creationists, though. They claim everything was created exactly as things are today, which is obviously willfully ignorant.

Many are guilty of inherent biases and extremes in narrative-building (preachers and scientists included). Few keep an open mind.

I put the arguments/narratives in this way:-

Evolution Only ---------- Creation and Evolution Collective ---------- Creation Only

Chance Only ---------- Open-ended ---------- Biblical Accounts Only

EXTREMISM of LEFT ---------- BALANCE ---------- EXTREMISM of RIGHT

Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jun 30th, 2017 at 02:12 PM

Old Post Jun 30th, 2017 02:01 PM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Everything is Random ---------- Open-ended ---------- Creation Only

EXTREMISM of LEFT ------------ BALANCE ------------- EXTREMISM of RIGHT


That's a big misconception about evolution. It's anything but random. Natural selection is not random.


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Old Post Jun 30th, 2017 02:32 PM
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S_W_LeGenD
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
That's a big misconception about evolution. It's anything but random. Natural selection is not random.

Original view of genetic mutations is that is it chance-based in relation to adaptation (element of randomness). However, this view was challenged in newer studies with observations that suggest that genetic mutations tend to be "directed." You can find ample details here: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/p/ptb/695...n;view=fulltext

Now we have various articles popping out all over the web with caption "misconceptions about evolution" which is ironic in the light of the fact that the aforementioned debate has not be settled yet.

Scientists themselves are responsible for prevalent confusion and misconceptions.

Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jul 2nd, 2017 at 12:21 PM

Old Post Jul 2nd, 2017 12:08 PM
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Beniboybling
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Many are guilty of inherent biases and extremes in narrative-building (preachers and scientists included). Few keep an open mind.

I put the arguments/narratives in this way:-

Evolution Only ---------- Creation and Evolution Collective ---------- Creation Only

Chance Only ---------- Open-ended ---------- Biblical Accounts Only

EXTREMISM of LEFT ---------- BALANCE ---------- EXTREMISM of RIGHT
laughing


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Old Post Jul 2nd, 2017 02:06 PM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Original view of genetic mutations is that is it chance-based in relation to adaptation (element of randomness). However, this view was challenged in newer studies with observations that suggest that genetic mutations tend to be "directed." You can find ample details here: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/p/ptb/695...n;view=fulltext

Now we have various articles popping out all over the web with caption "misconceptions about evolution" which is ironic in the light of the fact that the aforementioned debate has not be settled yet.


Even this lady admits that there are beneficial outcomes. She's struggling pretty hard to debunk evolution...



And allow me to post another excerpt from Richard Dawkins as I am reading one of his books...

quote:
Silence and Slow Time


If the history-deniers who doubt the fact of evolution are ignorant of biology, those who think the world began less than ten thousand years ago are worse than ignorant, they are deluded to the point of perversity. They are denying not only the facts of biology but those of physics, geology, cosmology, archaeology, history and chemistry as well. This chapter is about how we know the ages of rocks and fossils embedded in them. It presents the evidence that the timescale on which life has operated on this planet is measured no in thousands of years but in thousands of millions of years.

....

[detailed explanation of chemistry/physics and various dating methods, including tree rings]

....

A characteristic list of fossils is used to recognize Ordovician rocks, Devonian rocks, and so on. So far, all we are using these fossil assemblages for is to identify whether a slab of rock is, say, Permian or Silurian. Now we move on to use the order in which the named strata were laid down, helped by daisychaining around the world, as evidence of which strata are older or younger than which. Having established these two sets of information, we can then look at the fossils in successively younger strata, to see whether they constitute a sensible evolutionary sequence when compared with each other in sequence. Do they progress in a sensible direction? Do certain kinds of fossils, for example mammals, appear only after a given date, never before? The answer to all such questions is yes. Always yes. No exceptions. That is powerful evidence for evolution...

It is a fact that literally nothing that you could remotely call a mammal has ever been found in Devonian rock or in any older stratum. They are not just statistically rarer in Devonian than in later rocks. They literally never occur in rocks older than a certain date..."


~Richard Dawkins
The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution
Chapter 4: Silence and slow time



quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Scientists themselves are responsible for prevalent confusion and misconceptions.


What? No, that would be creationists constantly spreading willfully ignorant and idiotic assertions. Like not understanding the definition of a scientific "theory," as another example. Even our scientifically illiterate Vice President has used that same tired argument.


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Last edited by Patient_Leech on Jul 3rd, 2017 at 02:35 PM

Old Post Jul 3rd, 2017 02:29 PM
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Ayelewis
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It's a waste of time arguing with that churchy liar. Creationists are inherently dishonest and/or they don't care about facts and evidence. Somebody who denies that there is common descent of humans, chimps, rabbits, birds is a Creationist no matter if he thinks the world is a few thousand or a few billion years old. You know that; stop lying.


And here's a case of an animal currently in the process of evolving:

boredomtherapy.com/skink-evolution/

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/100901-science-animals-evolution-australia-lizard-skink-live-birth-eggs/#/25436.jpg

The Australian Three-Toed Skink is undergoing a double transformation. It's almost legless and it is changing from egg-laying to live birth.

But sure who cares about that when you've got a lying Creationist ******* to present you with all the real facts and info.

Old Post Jul 7th, 2017 05:38 PM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ayelewis
It's a waste of time arguing with that churchy liar. Creationists are inherently dishonest and/or they don't care about facts and evidence. Somebody who denies that there is common descent of humans, chimps, rabbits, birds is a Creationist no matter if he thinks the world is a few thousand or a few billion years old. You know that; stop lying.


thumb up


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ayelewis
And here's a case of an animal currently in the process of evolving:

boredomtherapy.com/skink-evolution/

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/100901-science-animals-evolution-australia-lizard-skink-live-birth-eggs/#/25436.jpg

The Australian Three-Toed Skink is undergoing a double transformation. It's almost legless and it is changing from egg-laying to live birth.


That is cool as shit. thumb up


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Old Post Jul 7th, 2017 05:59 PM
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S_W_LeGenD
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Even this lady admits that there are beneficial outcomes. She's struggling pretty hard to debunk evolution...



And allow me to post another excerpt from Richard Dawkins as I am reading one of his books...






What? No, that would be creationists constantly spreading willfully ignorant and idiotic assertions. Like not understanding the definition of a scientific "theory," as another example. Even our scientifically illiterate Vice President has used that same tired argument.

I think you missed my point.

Evolution is random or directed? This debate is not settled yet.

Old Post Jul 8th, 2017 02:24 PM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Evolution is random or directed? This debate is not settled yet.


I'm sure it's settled for you: it is directed by Allah, eh?


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Old Post Jul 9th, 2017 11:52 PM
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S_W_LeGenD
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
I'm sure it's settled for you: it is directed by Allah, eh?

You continue to miss this point:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Scientists themselves are responsible for prevalent confusion and misconceptions.


Elaboration:

1. Some scientific studies suggest that Evolution is RANDOM.

2. Some scientific studies suggest that Evolution is DIRECTED.

You can find ample evidence in this study: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/p/ptb/695...n;view=fulltext

Due to the above:

I find the web pieces with caption "misconceptions about Evolution" ridiculous and funny.

You also stated that Evolution is anything but random - you are in agreement with so-called Creationists on this part.

---

As for Godly intervention, I have a question for you:

The comet that struck Earth 65 million years ago did (not) alter the course of evolution on Earth?

This extraterrestrial intervention enabled mammals to replace dinosaurs as the dominant life-form across the world and set in motion evolutionary processes that would eventually lead to hominids.

---

As for "it is directed by Allah" part:-

I am an advocate of "open-ended approach" to assess all developments.

Faith and Science can work in tandem for "enriched learning experience" for all of us - they don't have to be at loggerheads for the masses. Here is a beautiful argument from an atheist scientist: https://www.forbes.com/sites/starts...d/#4851c7815ada

Those who are trying their best to disprove the notion of GOD with the "randomness nonsense" - are failing spectacularly in this matter and are just as deluded as those who are trying to rely upon science to rediscover GOD.

If somebody believes in GOD - so be it. No need to judge him for this belief because nobody have a sound refutation for it - all of us are learning in the end.

My faith is that all of us will figure out the ultimate truths one day.

Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jul 10th, 2017 at 12:10 PM

Old Post Jul 10th, 2017 11:58 AM
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S_W_LeGenD
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My faith is that all of us will figure out the ultimate truths one day.

In better words:

My faith is that ultimate truths will eventually come to light one day - and those who were in the wrong, will truly regret it on that day. This is also the gist of arguments in the Quran.

Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jul 10th, 2017 at 12:20 PM

Old Post Jul 10th, 2017 12:18 PM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You also stated that Evolution is anything but random - you are in agreement with so-called Creationists on this part.


I'm not missing the point. Creationist think life was created exactly as it is now less than 10,000 years ago. To them it's not directed at all, because it's not evolving. It's perfect and complete as is.

Mutations are random. Natural selection is not. I guess you could say it's a phenomenon that directs itself?



quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As for Godly intervention, I have a question for you:

The comet that struck Earth 65 million years ago did (not) alter the course of evolution on Earth?


Yeah, I would definitely say it did alter the course of evolution. Not sure what your point is.


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Old Post Jul 10th, 2017 12:20 PM
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S_W_LeGenD
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
I'm not missing the point. Creationist think life was created exactly as it is now less than 10,000 years ago. To them it's not directed at all, because it's not evolving. It's perfect and complete as is.

Mutations are random. Natural selection is not. I guess you could say it's a phenomenon that directs itself?

I am not sure which "Creationists" you are referring to.

Natural Selection is not random? Correct.

Mutations are strictly at random? Wrong.

Mutations can occur randomly (and) otherwise and evidence is piling-up:

https://www.nature.com/nature/journ...ature10995.html
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/Nonrandom_d...s_confirmed.php
https://www.edge.org/response-detail/25264

Evolution is a visible phenomenon but THEORY of EVOLUTION does not accounts for additional realities such as extraterrestrial interventions (and their implications for natural evolutionary processes) and how it all began (origin of life). This is why THEORY of EVOLUTION cannot refute the notion of Creation because it is just a part of the puzzle.

Creation also happens (i.e. origin of life) but we need a refined understanding of its concepts and driving forces. I am also expecting some scientists to explain "creation" with alternative terminologies because this word is like a big dildo up their @sses.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Yeah, I would definitely say it did alter the course of evolution. Not sure what your point is.

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Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jul 10th, 2017 at 01:03 PM

Old Post Jul 10th, 2017 12:50 PM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not sure which "Creationists" you are referring to


The ones who take the words in Genesis 1 in the Bible literally. There are many of them here in the Unites States. My father is one of them. See the graph I posted on the bottom of Page 2.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Creation also happens (i.e. origin of life) but we need a refined understanding of its concepts and driving forces.


Sure.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am also expecting some scientists to explain "creation" with alternative terminologies because this word is like a big dildo up their @sses.


Scientists probably prefer the word chemistry, seeing as God is a way to explain things we don't understand and stop inquiry.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My faith is that ultimate truths will eventually come to light one day - and those who were in the wrong, will truly regret it on that day. This is also the gist of arguments in the Quran.


And there goes any credibility you may have once had.


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Old Post Jul 10th, 2017 01:20 PM
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S_W_LeGenD
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
The ones who take the words in Genesis 1 in the Bible literally. There are many of them here in the Unites States. My father is one of them. See the graph I posted on the bottom of Page 2.

OK

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Sure.

thumb up

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Scientists probably prefer the word chemistry, seeing as God is a way to explain things we don't understand and stop inquiry.

I see.

However, nobody can (and should) deny Creation - it happens. Scientists might use another term but it is an undeniable fact of our Universe.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
And there goes any credibility you may have once had.

This "attitude" is something that EXTREMIST on the Left and EXTREMIST on the Right have in common and it doesn't address anything. Atheist think they know better and have greater credibility - they are just as deluded as those biblical nuts.

My point is that ultimate truths will come to light one day - and each individual will know if he was right or wrong. Nothing controversial in this.

Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jul 10th, 2017 at 03:41 PM

Old Post Jul 10th, 2017 03:30 PM
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Patient_Leech
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This "attitude" is something that EXTREMIST on the Left and EXTREMIST on the Right have in common and it doesn't address anything. Atheist think they know better and have greater credibility - they are just as deluded as those biblical nuts.


No, that is a false comparison. Bible nuts believe a bunch of silly stuff in a book without good evidence. Atheists simply reject such unsubstantiated silliness. That is not "EXTREMISM" as you seem to think. It is reasonableness.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My point is that ultimate truths will come to light one day - and each individual will know if he was right or wrong. Nothing controversial in this.


No, what you said was...


quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My faith is that ultimate truths will eventually come to light one day - and those who were in the wrong, will truly regret it on that day. This is also the gist of arguments in the Quran.


You're at least implicitly stating that there is some sort of judgment after death, and yes, that is controversial. It comes down to believing things without good evidence again. There is no evidence for such nonsense.


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Old Post Jul 10th, 2017 03:47 PM
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S_W_LeGenD
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
No, that is a false comparison. Bible nuts believe a bunch of silly stuff in a book without good evidence. Atheists simply reject such unsubstantiated silliness. That is not "EXTREMISM" as you seem to think. It is reasonableness.

Evidence - as if it really matters?

People believe what they want to believe, my friend. Some examples:

1. Some people dismiss Jesus Christ as a legend: http://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/15/l...myth/index.html

2. Some people dismiss Man's visit to the Moon: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...versary-8446862

3. Some people believe that 9/11 was an inside job: https://www.livescience.com/56479-a...y-theories.html

Debunking efforts are not really working - are they?

I am sure many Atheist are into conspiracy theories as well - they just pretend to know better.

We cannot (and should not) take scientific studies as "gospel" either because newer findings can invalidate older assessments and/or rewrite them. Many scientists and/or researchers will tell you this.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
No, what you said was...



You're at least implicitly stating that there is some sort of judgment after death, and yes, that is controversial. It comes down to believing things without good evidence again. There is no evidence for such nonsense.

And if it is not nonsense? Dead don't talk and explain their experiences - do they?

What we know today is not the end.

Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jul 10th, 2017 at 04:13 PM

Old Post Jul 10th, 2017 03:59 PM
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S_W_LeGenD
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What we know today is not the end.

We have this itch to study, explore and question and these motives will lead us somewhere - it will have an end.

If God exists - he will respond to our queries one day.

Old Post Jul 10th, 2017 04:17 PM
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