I'm honestly seeing how ot lukes character is so much different in this scenerio.
In the OT luke came a second away from killing Vader, stopped himself at the last moment and gave up. Not wanting to kill his father, especially out of fear/anger. He then gives up, tossing down his saber and basically throwing himself at Palpatines mercy, which he almost got zapped to death for. He was willing give up and take the chance of leaving palpatine in power and to sacrifice his sister, friends and the rest of the rebellion, risking all their lives on the slimmest of hopes that his father could be redeemed, and not wanting to risk going to the darkside and doing more harm than good.
With kylo, luke came a second away from killing him, stopped himself at the last moment not wanting to kill him out of fear/anger and got a stone hut dropped on him for it. He then went into exile leaving the galaxy at the mercy of snoke and kylo, out of fear that teaching more jedi would do more harm than good.
At least when he went into exile he did it solely for the altruistic reason that he legit thought it was the best thing for the galaxy, not wanting to risk training more Jedi only to have them turn to the darkside and plunge the galaxy further into darkness.
In the OT, he gave up to the emperor and risked the fate of the Galaxy partly for the selfish reason that he didn't want to kill his own father and wanted to redeem him even though he's a mass murderer with the blood of millions maybe billions on his hands.
In OT, his desire to kill Vader was fueled by the Emperor (and Vader) actively tempting him towards the dark side. If you'll recall, he initially had ZERO intention of fighting anybody. Ultimately, he overcome the Emperor and Vader's temptations and was unmoved despite being fried by force lightning. Here, we're talking about a Luke who has already completed his arc; a Luke who has already learned his lesson. The thought of killing Kylo would not have even registered in his mind given everything he had gone through in the OT. Like Rey, he would see the conflict in Kylo and would actively gesture him towards the light while being reminded of the lessons he had learned years earlier when he himself was tempted by the dark side.
This is not to say that a situation where Luke tries to murder Kylo is impossible, but the writers would need to give us A LOT MORE information than what we were given to justify such a massive departure from his established characterization.
Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
Luke in the new movie really isn't THAT bad ... he's a far more interesting character like this.
We have to remember that the Skywalker family just has this intrinsic tendency for flirtations with the dark side, as well as pride. Don't tell me Luke wasn't feeling a sense of hubris and vanity when he cut off Vader's hand and had his father at his complete mercy. Anakin too, and even Kylo, have fits of rage that they can't control. Luke is the only one who was able to control them, which is impressive. And he showed it again. Even after having a vision of many people dying and suffering, all through Kylo, and despite his Skywalker 'darkness', he restrained himself.
I do agree that more info/context had to be given. I think Ep. 9 will give more flashbacks of Kylo actually showing signs of turning, and Luke noticing.
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
Except iirc he saw no conflict in kylo. He searched kylos feelings and found it twisted by snoke beyond salvation, and even still he stopped himself.
Also weren't those feelings of conflict Rey felt just emotions planted by snoke in order to lure Rey to him? Solidified by the fact that kylo had absolutly no intention of coming back to the light. When he had the chance after snokes death he just wanted Rey to come to his side, and join him in slaughtering the rebellion and ruling the galaxy with him.
Snoke himself says there is conflict, which is why he ridicules Kylo at the beginning of the film and what he attributes to why Kylo lost his duel with Rey in TFA. Not to mention that scene where Kylo deliberately passes up on the opportunity to blast Leia from his personal tie-fighter. The entire point of him killing Han was an effort to REMOVE the conflict, but that didn't change. So there was definitely conflict and any notion that Luke wouldn't have been able to find it despite finding it at a much younger and less experienced age in one of the most powerful dark side force wielders in galactic history is highly questionable.
Last edited by Dark-Kenshin on Dec 16th, 2017 at 01:14 AM
Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
I loved parts of it and I despised parts of it. I liked him as a teacher, I liked his being a hermit. But I despised how weak he comes off as being, he should have been way stronger.
The idea being I don't care about Luke's opinion, and thus when I take one, I'm going with Kylo. You can be as hypothetical and philosophical as you want, but without actual evidence, you need to go on one account or the other. And I'm going with Kylo's because I like him better as a character if nothing else.
That response doesn't even make sense. It's not an edgy statement, it's just an acknowledgement of fact. If anything, taking the word of psycho sounds way worse than taking the word of a Nazi. At least a Nazi has a bigger grasp on reality.
Definitely
I agree, but I actually thought he didn't seem that weak. The way he was able to trick Kylo and toy with him in their "duel" was actually impressive
[Response to Dark-Kenshin moved here from spoiler-free thread]
No, I don't think so. Luke is not a traditional Jedi like Kenobi was or some of the prequel Jedi were. He was using force chokes, etc. Yeah, there was definitely temptation there but he likely just had a human reaction to Vader threatening to potentially turn/use Leia and lost control. Luke has always been someone who could've teetered on that line. Yes, he is a Jedi and is good but the thought crossed his mind simply because he knows how strong the Skywalker line is and knew Kylo was already being seduced by Snoke. It crossed his mind and immediately left him, as HE SAID, leaving him feeling nothing but guilt over it. Kylo caught him and thought it was something else.
It added humanity to Luke's character. Being perfectly honest? Luke simply being an absolutely good Jedi with no moments of crisis or anything like that would have been boring. Even a Master is human and can have those moments/thoughts. I thought it was a step in the right direction for his character. Luke learned his lesson about falling to the dark side and fully utilizing that dark power to control or perhaps run a galaxy that way, not necessarily doing a SINGLE thing, albeit a horrible one (killing Kylo).
I'm not going to respond much to your analogy because, as I said before, it doesn't fit much. It doesn't have much going for it, if I'm being honest. Luke's development hadn't ended there. Yes, he threw his lightsaber down and made his decision but obviously having more exposure to the dark side and likely knowing about Snoke's presence and another Sidious coming around, it may have been enough for him to think the action was necessary for a moment. Considering he abandoned another potential order and training more Jedi to seclude himself? It makes perfect sense. He has been someone who has been put to this test most of his life and it inspired a moment in him. It gives his character a lack of perfection that is necessary to not have him be absurdly boring (Early Comic Superman levels of being dandy and good) and inspires conflict.
Like I said, the thought of taking Kylo out crossing his mind is not an implication he would simply walk down the path of the dark side, which I think is the biggest problem with your criticism. He denounced the dark side with Sidious when was young, yes. However, the quick thought of murdering Kylo is not him walking down that path. At that point, it was a human being wanting to commit to something practical and having a lapse in judgment that took no moral conditions into account. There's no evidence to suggest he would have killed Kylo and then it would've changed his iris' yellow and he'd start shooting force lighting everywhere.
If it was more than just a passing thought that immediately inspired nothing but guilt in Luke? I'd agree it would need more. It wasn't so it isn't against the characterization at all. Luke has never, ever been the picture-perfect Jedi. He's always been, how to put this, closer to "grey" than "blue." He is a fantastic Jedi and is generally an outstandingly moral individual, as we've seen, but he had a moment and it added a great deal of humanity to his character. I loved it.
Also, it did look like he had not communicated with Yoda in a very,
very long time. Just thought I'd add that.
Luke didn't "give up" to the Emperor; Luke had absolutely no way of knowing about Force lightning so him throwing his lightsaber in defiance of some old man wasn't him committing death by Sith, he genuinely didn't know that Palpatine had any offensive capabilities.
I thought about that as well but thought it could be a stretch. If Snoke has that ability, he could easily use it to sow discord amongst the Jedi. However, it seemed more likely that Luke's strength in the force that allowed him to see the path Kylo would go down and then Luke just had a momentary lapse of judgment which created a disastrous series of events.
Well, Luke certainly has an opinion on Luke Skywalker.
__________________
"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
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__________________
"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
How much more effort would you like in response to a quote edit? I'm not made out of effort you know. Effort doesn't just grow on trees.
__________________
"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
Last edited by Tzeentch on Dec 16th, 2017 at 01:04 PM
Dec 16th, 2017 12:28 AM
