This whole balance of the Force stuff is a plot device to provide context to the birth of Anakin Skywalker without a father and also a central theme in Plagueis's novel in which his actions are explored in the light of having an impact on the mechinations of the Force but to use this as a basis to develop a perception of Plagueis's power is utterly misleading.
Taalon shifted the balance of the Force by simply dipping himself into the Font of Power, so what are we to make of this? That Abeloth for all her hype, was unable to impact the balance of the Force in profound ways?
This kind of logic is bordering ridiculous now.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jan 7th, 2018 at 11:09 PM
That out of universe explanation isn't incompatible with the fact that Plagueis and Sidious wrestled with the Force itself.
Hey - Ziost is just a plot device to get an expansion pack, amirite?
Post-pool Taalon was clearly becoming extraordinarily powerful, given that the Font of Power is one of the most powerful power-ups in Star Wars - it's how The Son got his powers.
What? Abeloth had always been there.
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There was no wrestling in their effort. They felt that the Force had yielded but the Force had other plans - Anakin Skywalker happened and he coupled with his children brought an end to reign of Palpatine.
You are missing the point. Why Abeloth not had a profound impact on the balance of the Force?
Again, Post-pool Taalon's strength is irrelevant. His very act of dipping himself into Font of Power was sufficient to nudge the Force towards Dark Side.
A big piss over months of efforts of Palpatine-Plagueis collective for the same end, if you ask me.
Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
(This response is gonna look kinda messy, my apologies)
"Valk, even with his most grandiose rituals, with the resources of two empires and countless willing minions supporting him, and has never done anything remotely as impressive as bending the will of the Force, even with thousands of years to pull it off. In contrast, vastly pre-prime Plagueis and Sidious pulled it off. As Az pointed out in the blog, Plagueis would go on to become so much more powerful he should be capable of replicating the meditation on his own."
Neither has Plagueis, not on his own. He had the aid of Sidious, who helped in at least equal part. And again, this was over the course of an extended length of time, with each Sith pouring power into the meditation. They applied their own power, multiplied exponentially. I really don't know how else to explain it, or how to be clearer about it. The feat CANNOT be attributed to Plagueis or Sidious alone, it's a joint feat, and there is no indication that either of them could have done it on their own. Is it a better feat than anything Valk has? Yes, it is, I'm not disputing that. What I'm disputing is that the feat can be at all attributed to the power Plagueis or Sidious have at their disposal in a fight. The feat is simple not attributable to power summonable in combat.
Proof he became far more powerful? Proof he attained power enough to perform the feat on his own?
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"The implications of Plagueis and Sidious' actions being so severe that the Force miraculously conceived a being with power to rival The Father just to stop them, just to "re-balance" the Force. So sorry, but it's just a plain better feat."
Again, it's better as a joint feat. It can't be attributed to Plaguies specifically, which is what you're doing. He did NOT perform it on his own, he did NOT do it in a short amount of time, and he did NOT do it only with power available to him in a normal circumstance. Therefore, the feat is not an indicator of Plagueis' power. To say that it is, is to ignore literally EVERY bit of context surrounding the feat.
"There is no question of it's combat effectiveness: destroying midichlorians is "far easier" than creating them, according to Plagueis, and yet, Plagueis could incite his midichlorians to heal damaged tissue, while drunk and ambushed, that he could heal himself faster than Sidious' most powerful lightning could damage him. So, logically, Plagueis, while not drunk and combat-ready, should be able to kill off the midichlorians of damn near anyone who can't defend from it, and just as quickly heal himself."
I don't disagree with any of this.
"But as for your criticism, no, it's not a greater achievement because "it's more useful", which isn't said anywhere in the book. It's a greater achievement, and required Plagueis to grow more powerful, because it was plainly more difficult to do than the meditation. Quote:"
Requiring growth in power for Midi Manipulation=/=power required to enforce one's will on he Force alone. Which seems to be what you're implying. That stance is just, to be honest, hilariously stupid. As for the quote, nothing in it implies that the ability to use Midichlorian Manipulation makes him powerful enough to justify the meditation being attributed to him. In fact, the text itself seems simply to imply that this (Midi Manipulation) was groundbreaking solely because it had never been done before, and because of all the applications it could have, The text never directly states or implies that Plagueis underwent some significant growth in power to be able to use the ability, even the line "drunk on newfound power" in the context of the rest of the passage, seems only to imply that Plagueis was highly impressed with himself for learning how to cheat death. All that is, is gaining greater mastery over the Force's applications, it doesn't imply a jump in actual power.
So do you understand now?
"1. The meditation itself is more profound, with farther reaching implications and more impressive than anything Valk has done, even with all of his best rituals."
I'm not saying it wasn't more profound, I'm saying it's not attributable to Plagueis as an indicator of his average level of power.
"2. The meditation was less impressive than what proceeded, the resurrection of Venamis which "stunned Sidious into silence", which left Plagueis "drunk on newfound power." Further evidence of his increasing power and mastery was "his own increased midichlorian count.""
Less impressive in that Midichlorian Manipulation has far more far reaching possibilities, that doesn't necessitate that it's more impressive in regards to power required to perform it. What you're saying is in no way stated or implied by the text, and to think that midichlorian manipulation would require greater power than altering the balance of the Force, and forcing your will onto an all powerful cosmic force, is laughable.
"Plagueis became exponentially more powerful in the 8 years after the meditation, and after that, he still had what is at least 2-5 years of growth before we get to TPM itself. So at minimum a full decade before his prime.
Hence why I said "short of fighting as a disembodied entity." However, if we make a thread, and the goal of the thread is for Valk to keep his physical body alive, Plagueis would surely win."
Based on what did Plagueis grow exponentially? I've seen nothing to indicate as much. I'm not saying he didn't grow at all, mind you, only that he didn't grow significantly, at least not in regards to power. He very well could have grown significantly in regards to knowledge and mastery.
As Az pointed out, Plagueis was well aware of the ancient's greatest feats, including Essence Transfer, Necromancy, saturation of an entire planet with dark side energy, creating illusions, creating alchemical monstrosities, and as noted in Darth Plagueis, "compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate." He was also aware of weather manipulation, flight, invisibility and teleportation... and you know what Plagueis had to say, in spite of knowing all these abilities exist, in spite of knowing exactly who Exar Kun and Vitiate are, once he went Neo and broke the source code of the Matrix Force? Quote:
Being aware of these abilities, and knowing how to replicate them, are not the same thing. As for Plagueis' auto-fellating pats on the back, it's not convincing. Sith are constantly believing they're the greatest ever, that doesn't make it true. Plus, the quote itself makes note that there was a possibility of other Sith being his superior.
The quote can very easily include Vitiate or Kun as superiors to Plagueis. The quote isn't an objective statement of Plagueis' superiority to other Sith, it's Plagueis sucking his own dick.
"And why was he so confident? Because, as echoed by Darth Wyyrlok III centuries later, nothing was outside of Plagueis' grasp once he could exert his will upon on the Force. Not in the mundane sense... in the sense that his will can subvert the will of the Force and tap into the source code, the midichlorians themselves, and alter them. Because Plagueis has essentially hacked the Force itself, there are no abilities he cannot learn."
Except Plagueis didn't "hack the Force" on his own, as is very obvious by the feat itself. So Wyyrlok's word means very little when it's not in line with what ACTUALLY happened. I'm not saying Plagueis' discovery of Midichlorian Manipulation wouldn't lead to making himself more powerful once he mastered the ability, theoretically, he could have made his full potential nearly unlimited. But, unfortunately for him, and for the pro-Plagueis argument, he never reached that level of power. So his having learned to manipulate Midichlorians ultimately means very little in regards to how traditionally powerful he actually was. It means even less when faced with the likelihood that the ability wouldn't even work on Vitiate/Valkorion due to being an entity who doesn't rely on the midichlorians in their host body.
Considering Valkorion can both teleport and can slow down time or his perception of it to a standstill no one will be able to get an advantage over him in speed. Couple that with his ability to easily block lightsaber strikes with the Force and any threat with a lightsaber is slim at best.
Besides which his feat of having an entire duel with Revan in a few seconds is arguably just as good as anything Plagueis has done and thats in his weakest on-screen incarnation.
Shifting the balance of the Force is a very different thing from "willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts."
They "had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force’s proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended."
Comparing that kind of cosmic domination to any rudimentary event that causes a disturbance or shift in the Force is just plain fallacious. Luceno went out of his way to draw a distinction between the two, quote "not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration."
And as noted, Plagueis and Sidious did this before growing exponentially in power. The Force's response being to create a literal plot device god to defeat them. Valk doesn't cut it.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Not going to debunk the thread. But just nitpicking at a few points here and there. Anyone want to explain what tipping the balance of the force, in spaced-out ritual none the less, means in a short moment of force combat?
Or why, just because this particular ritual happened, he is better than anyone who didn't complete the same feat (or even try for that matter).
Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
(This is also gonna look messy, I haven't gotten the hang of KMC's formatting yet. So again, I apologize.)
"Just being able to teleport doesn't change the fact that Plagueis is a far better fighter with far better speed feats. Talking about someone who can very easily oneshot a TPM Maul level duelist in a duel. Plagueis is also aware of teleporting, can likely do it himself, and is ultimately unimpressed by it."
I'm not saying Plagueis doesn't have better feats in regards to speed, only that speed will play less of a role than what you think it will. Plagueis being unimpressed by teleportation means nothing, his opinion on it doesn't make it any less useful in combat. Just because Sidious was unimpressed by the prospect of saber combat, doesn't mean he considered a lightsaber or a skilled duelist as any less of a threat to his life.
"Saying augmentation can simply be raised by pouring more power into it is true to an extent, but ultimately, what makes a good lightsaber duelist is the same thing as any other Force power; training. You do not get to neglect training in an area and expect to be great at it. Valk clearly has rudimentary superhuman augmentation like all Force users, but he has no feats to suggest he has mastered it to the same level as Plagueis; far from it, when Plagueis is outclassing people like TPM Maul, who himself has many impressive speed feats, including casual faster-than-eye speeds such that CCTV cameras need to be put into slow motion just to perceive him."
Oh I don't disagree with that, in a close up confrontation, i don't argue that Valkorion can really win at that point. Plagueis is obviously more skilled. I'm simply saying that, if need be, Valkorion can up his speed to a necessary level to keep himself away from Plagueis, and will have his ability to teleport to help him do so.
"So not only are Plagueis' feats better, and his training far more extensive, but Valk has nothing but a laundry list of embarrassing combat showings, his only vindication being his superior power, an advantage he lacks here.
Kenobi has never created earthquakes, no. You might be referring to the debunked monolith feat which was a TK-chain reaction thing."
Again, I don't disagree with having less training in physical combat. I do disagree with Plagueis having superior power, but as evident by the fact we're having this debate, that much is obvious, haha. I wasn't aware Kenobi's feat had been debunked, and I just read Plagueis' earthquake quote not long ago, and I agree that Plagueis' feat is well beyond what Kenobi did.
"It was caused by Plagueis, because it's impossible for a planet of Naboo's climate to suddenly freeze lakes and waterfalls; it's akin to our worlds mediterranean. So his mere presence caused earthquakes that shook underground cities, countries and mountains, and severe collapses in temperature across much of the planet, well before his prime. Though it's fair to note it's not a TK feat and perhaps not good enough proof alone Plagueis > Valk."
It seems then that it was Plagueis' presence. Still, that doesn't necessitate superiority to Valkorion. Sidious, who is Plagueis' superior, has no feats like causing earthquakes and changing weather with his mere presence, not to the same extent as Sidious, but we still consider Sidious his superior.
"Considering Vitiate used a ritual in unknown circumstances to pull off Ziost, as indicated by the codex (Az went over this too) chalking this up to being something Vitiate can do of his own power, let alone while weakened, seems illogical to me. However it seems like an apples and oranges comparison that is unnecessary, when we can safely say that the unbalancing of the Force and domination of midichlorians is proof enough alone that Plagueis is supreme. All the other tidbits are just nice additions or provide further clarification."
I'm not convinced it was a ritual, it didn't seem like one to me when I played through the game. Vitiate's own dialogue just seems to imply that he drained Ziost "because I could" and not as any necessity or ending of a ritual. This is why I attribute it to him and what he should be capable of off-hand. As for dominating the Force and manipulating midichlorians, I've explained numerous times now why that feat isn't attributable to Plagueis in any way for a VS scenario.
Taalon's act caused a "tangible alteration" as well.
But Luke knew better than to doubt what he was seeing. He could sense the Balance tipping toward darkness, he could feel the Force shuddering with uncertainty and despair.
Something terrible had just happened on Coruscant. Luke had felt it through the Force, a wave of sorrow so sharp and feral it had sent a physical jolt through his entire body. The aftershocks were still coming as others learned of the event—ripples of grief and disbelief and guilt that left Luke feeling worried and forlorn. There had been a death on Coruscant, a loss so profound it had rocked the entire Jedi Order. Exactly who was gone or how, it was impossible to know … but it did seem clear that Luke could no longer count on reinforcements.
Taken from FOTJ - Vortex
Which turned out to be this:
But they remained steady, shining out from the darkness of the High Lord’s soul, and Luke knew why the Force was so full of portent that morning, why he could feel the Balance shifting toward shadow.
Taalon had been in the Pool of Knowledge, and that changed everything.
Taken from FOTJ - Vortex
That was not a mere paradigm shift either since Luke Skywalker was literally sensing it.
Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
The Force is constantly shifting between light and dark dominance. Pretty much any time the Sith are prevalent in the galaxy, the Dark Side takes dominance.
Force and Destiny Core Rulebook went to great lengths to emphasis the fact that the balance of the Force tends to shift over time due to various factors. Revan novel also hinted as much.
BioWare simply did not tell the story of Valkorion from the perspective of his influence over the balance of the Force. It is quiet possible that Leeland Chee didn't approve or something because this theme is central to the plot of Canon lore.
Without any external aid, they "irrevocably tipped" the cosmic Force towards the Dark Side, shrouding all of the Jedi's perception of the future henceforth, a tangible alteration to the Force felt by anyone, even the untrained, strong in the Force. The result of this "etheric war" on the Force was the Force saying "well, I better make a literal God to combat these guys, otherwise the Force will never be re-balanced."
And after this, Plagueis kicks the Force in the balls further by hacking the source code so to speak, taking the power of creation and death into his hands quite literally, something the Force will actively resist you trying to do. This let Plagueis create midichlorians out of nothing, achieve true biological immortality, and kill people's midichlorians by will.
Whereas, despite all of Valkorion's rituals, schemes and machinations, the thousands of years and two empires worth of resources at his disposal, at no point did he come close to having this kind of control over the Force, never did the Dark Side become so domineering, never did he scratch that kind of immortality, etc. He just wasn't as big a deal. Also, as a tidbit, he has no TP feats on par with touching the mind of every single being in the galaxy, which is one hundred quadrillion beings... not counting those not counted in a census or animals, sealife and insects.
Even if you think Valk is more powerful, he has no way to resist his host body being killed off. Not convinced he can slow down time. Plagueis can speedblitz Maul. Maul's feat of moving so fast CCTV cameras need to be put in slow motion just to start seeing him (which includes him climbing and shit), or Plagueis moving faster than a droid can track (this specific droid being able to track the movement of blaster bolts).
How is someone much slower than Plagueis being able to teleport useful? Plagueis himself likely knows how to teleport and isn't impressed by it. All Force users have precognition, which teleportation doesn't circumvent.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Anyway, Ima duck out now and play Skyrim. @ILS, if you wanna continue our conversation, let me know via PM. Otherwise, I'll get back to this either later tonight or tomorrow sometime.
Good convo so far, I think this is the first time neither of us have had an extended convo without getting mad at the other somehow, lol.
Only the actions of Plagueis and Sidious precipitated the need for a Chosen One to restore balance. The effect they had on the Force is factually greater than any Sith who preceded them, including Valk.
Aside from the fact Taalon was stepping into a source of power that would make him Son-tier, the Son being a god who would probably tear the galaxy apart if he turned up, the mere fact that Luke can sense anything, can sense any kind of tipping taking place proves that this isn't the same. What Plagueis and Sidious did shrouded the Force so fully in the Dark Side, Yoda and all the others couldn't sense anything about the future.
Taalon caused some tipping to start taking place, whereas Plagueis and Sidious went to war with the Force, forced it to yield, and then suffused the entire galaxy with the Dark Side such that everyone felt it. It's not anywhere as impressive.
Slight shifts in either direction is not the same thing as going to war with the Force, winning, having the Dark Side permeate everything, and the Force spawning a divine being to re-balance it. Let's go back to being honest now.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Jan 7th, 2018 11:07 PM
