I'm suggesting it's not as effective as you think at these higher levels when your opponents are highly competent anyway, as seen in the poor track record of associated combatants. With the element of surprise, I'm willing to accept that it could be a game-changer. Otherwise, I don't think so.
Also not sure it'll turn up in the majority of instances. When has teleportation even been used while under duress from a constant barrage of attacks, especially someone as fast and skilled as Mace? Jadus used it with his precognition allowing him to anticipate a pitiful blaster attack from a non-Force sensitive. Talzin and Satele used it when they were prepared for a saber attack. An'ya Kuro used it when her blade was locked with Vader's. Revan used it after building up his powers in safety against the strike team on the Foundry. Even Abeloth had to throw her enemies off with a Force Wave before teleporting.
Proof or at least reasoning as to why he changed powers mid-way for no reason? He had the same red glow the entire time. More likely that he was just using a combination of invisibility and Force Speed the entire time and the Consular was just surprised at first, not to mention presumably being tired after fighting their way through Corellia. Unless he decided to switch from teleportation to an inferior power... because the teleporting was tiring him?
If he could surprise him, yeah. Otherwise, disagreed. Mace is comparable in power to Yoda and Sidious, both of whom I consider more powerful than Valkorion.
The Dread Masters were many in number as well. And unless I'm mistaken, the non-Force sensitives managed to come out of Revan's fight just fine.
Which can be easily explained by Talzin just being fast enough to react to Mace? You don't blitz people when they attack, you blitz them before you can attack. If Mace couldn't accomplish that, why would he blitz her when she attacked? Also, this is TCW, a medium where blitzing is far and few between (if it's even a thing). Non-Force sensitives contend with high-level Jedi and Sith all the time when they really shouldn't even be able to see them.
What, by stating the statistical fact that teleporters haven't managed to win their respective fights? I'm really not. My suggestion is that it's not necessarily a get-out-of-jail-free card.
I was referring to characters who had showed teleportation before/during fights no longer being able to do so at the end once they were injured or depleted e.g. An'ya Kuro, Jadus etc. But Revan and the Dread Masters fall into that category as well, as unless I'm much mistaken, all of them still ended up dying or being badly injured at some point where the teleportation couldn't save them.
Teleportation being able to be used by the injured or fatigued only has precedent in exceptional cases. On the Foundry, Revan gathered his powers for a considerable amount of time before teleporting; he obviously couldn't do it "instantaneously and effortlessly" like you suggest. Yavin IV is an immeasurably powerful DS nexus, as is Oricon in the case of the Dread Masters.
I dispute the notion that it's far deeper than pretty much any other character currently contesting this round of the tournament.
It took a noticeable enough toll for him to not be able to teleport out of that Force cage at the end, yeah. Personal incredulity doesn't stand up to that, I'm afraid.
Sure, but in general terms we assume flat ground, no?
At his best, Mace could recover instantly from Force attacks from Palpatine, somebody who is more powerful than Vitiate and has a better combat resume. Short of charging up a lightning storm, I don't see any of Vitiate's attacks being any more disruptive than the ones in the novel against Revan.
A weighted fight on a nexus, where the accumulation of distance was predicated on Revan starting off far away from a prepared Vitiate and having to run up to him in the first place. If the fight had started an average distance apart with Vitiate not being prepared for Revan's arrival, things could have gone very differently. Not comparable.
Three battle-weary Jedi whom a prepared Vitiate (arguably still the beneficiary of a nexus here) attacks with Lightning as one or two of them move slowly towards him and the others stand still. Not comparable.
Which one? What instance are you talking about? Obi-Wan basically moved fast enough to seemingly teleport to Dooku as well.
Sure, but I think Valkorion could kill most of the mythos with his Force powers already. For the ones that can make a fight of it against him (e.g. the current competitors), I think they all move fast enough to render close-quarters teleportation (as is often the case in combat) largely irrelevant. Only over a tremendous distance or in an environment that provides considerable shelter or nuisance to an opponent trying to traverse it would teleportation be particularly useful. So I think you're overvaluing it here. Either he can destroy his enemies, or they can compete with him, which pretty much means they're performing at such a high level that teleportation would only be useful in certain environments or to BFR oneself out of a fight (ie. losing).
Last edited by SunRazer on Jan 23rd, 2018 at 12:44 AM
I wish I could say it's lowballing but it's pretty much par for the course. For one thing, Vitiate's incompetencies are well-spread out throughout his one fight in the novel. At no point are they actually contradicted in a way that would actually make them low showings, like if we found out Vitiate was holding back or something. Hasn't happened. Likewise, Vitiate had 300 years to improve, but to my knowledge there's a considerable dearth of evidence to suggest he spent that time actually honing his combat abilities, and of course on the other end of the 300 years we still have him walking into sabers.
tl;dr Can't really call it lowballing when it's more or less the standard for Vitiate.
I noticed that despite your efforts to play eye-for-an-eye, you failed to answer my request to provide instances where Vitiate demonstrated the in-combat precision, timing or general ability of Palpatine in a way that makes the latter being able to exploit a distraction against Mace (ultimately to no effect) relevant here.
Last thing that happened, Mace was deflecting a slash from Dooku as the shadows of the Magnaguards loomed behind him. Them grabbing him because he was unable to take preventative action due to defending against an equal in Dooku doesn't equate to Vitiate having complete freedom to move as he fried the helpless Revan, and still only reacting to T3 at the last instant. On a nexus. He'd have died if his speed wasn't enhanced by the ambient properties of Dromund Kaas.
That's canon and derived from a script in TCW, where if your intention was to lowball, you could certainly do a lot worse than showing Mace not dominating Maul, one of the fastest and deadliest combatants in the mythos with a better resume of combat speed/competency than Vitiate.
1. Mace was "highly distressed" during that incident.
2. The incident takes place before the events of Shatterpoint, after which Mace's use of Vaapad improves per the RotS novel.
3. That quote is from 2004 and referring to a fight written in 2003. It's retconned by the 2005 RotS novel having Mace use more of his skills than he did in that fight. Unless of course, going back to the second point, Mace's Vaapad just improved that much between the Ventress fight and RotS, in which case it's irrelevant to RotS Mace anyway.
I know Valkorion is more powerful, but I don't necessarily know that he's a much better combatant, no. Because there's no evidence he spent his years honing his actual combat abilities, and because I cited incompetencies from both the novel and in the vanilla game, a disparity of 300 years.
I would list the KotFE incident as another embarrassing showing, but apparently that was deliberate on Valkorion's part.
Our last discussion failed to reach a conclusion because you didn't respond. Valkorion stopping time on himself has no precedent (in fact, neither does him teleporting). We've seen him fight and that's not his modus operandi; he just attacks with the Force. If he moves, it tends to be closer to his enemies.
And if we assume he actually is stopping time, then Mace, somebody who is favourably compared to Yoda with respect to Force power, could reasonably be argued to break out ala Vaylin.
You didn't prove Valkorion could launch attacks out of stopped time either (you cited an independent agent in the Outlander attacking someone and time going back to normal when he did). At the end of the day, the idea of attacking in stopped time would essentially a be a free kill, a notion which doesn't make narrative sense and is contradicted by the fact that it's not an option whenever Valkorion freezes time against opponents such as Arcann, etc. You didn't reply to that last time. Why would you expect me to take that as a given?
Chrome and Firefox are both good. Edge is shit.
Last edited by SunRazer on Jan 23rd, 2018 at 12:41 AM
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Leneer gets stomped by (end of)Decieved Malgus and she could heighten her perceptions to witness the FTL speeds of a hyperspace jump like ultra slow motion and appear to literally exist and accomplish separate tasks in a dozen places simultaneously. Malgus' mastery of the dark side of the Force grew daily after this point. Yet he's evidently not even Dread Master tier.
But let's ignore that.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Lana Beniko attempted a sneak-attack on Valkorion-possessed host from behind. Granted that this host was armed with a lightsaber, Valkorion was able to swifly counter Beniko's attack and sent her crashing into a wall with a blast of power.
Valkorion also demonstrated the capability to block lightsaber blows at point blank range.
I feel that you are under-estimating Valkorion's ability to fight an opponent in close-quarters combat.
Jan 22nd, 2018 11:12 PM
