I'll read this later (I've skimmed it but not followed up the sources fully yet), but I am interested that you almost entirely use sources from the KJV to support your arguments, whilst also criticising and discrediting the KJV when it doesn't suit your stance (in relation to God being the root of evil). Why is the KJV fine for things you agree with, but useless when regarding something you disagree with? (I stand by the KJV translation; God created evil, and he is the master of all of the suffering and cruelty borne upon this world's fleshly shoulders. His 'satans' are merely minions, and demons are his children, too.)
I also note that you continue to have zero interest in the words of Jesus Christ, and only reference one of the four canonical texts of the teachings of Christ, and only quote the man himself once. Which leads me to say again that I disagree with your assertion that you are a Christian, as you have little interest in how Christ recontextualises the OT. I would say you are either an Abrahamist, or a Paulite, a far cry from a follower of Jesus (like most modern Christians, especially those who deify the Pope of the Holy Roman Church). I would say that in all likelihood, if you were in the crowd before Pilate, you would have cried, "Let him be crucified."
I really don't think you understand the meaning of the coming of, trial, and sacrifice of Jesus, and what his suffering means in context. But then, you did say that you are 16 years old, so you've plenty of time to muse on these matters, and I commend your research and dedication.
Thomas, 17: “I will give you what no eye has seen, and what no ear has heard, and what no hand has touched, and what has not occurred to the human mind.”
I do not look down on the KJV in any way, I was simply stating that the NIV and ESV have a more recognizable understanding of this verse. Evil = Calamity in either version.
It's still interesting that you only take issue with the KJV when it disagrees with your own stance. Otherwise it's fine, I guess? It doesn't matter that much, either way the line states that God created disease, misery, pestilence, and all earthly suffering, and they are acts of a being that can only be described as evil. Unless he did that by mistake, in which case he is incompetent.
God created demons, did he not? Or did they just appear? If he didn't create them, then why allow them to exist? Why is God so incompetent, if he cannot do away with demons? Or does he allow them to exist because he created them, as he is evil?
You quoted around Jesus, for the most part. Regardless of his part in the Trinity (which exists, but Sabaoth is not the father figure; that belongs to the true God of Good, beyond the realm of fleshly evil and pointless suffering), the words of Jesus do much to recontextualise and often outright refute entire segments of the OT (hence why Christians have so many cultural differences to Jews). Any Christian who does not base his faith around the specific words of the Christ are not Christians at all. Again, they are Abrahamites or Paulites; not Christians. I don't think that's a bad thing, but it's weird that the teachings of Jesus the Man are so inconsequential to modern 'Christians', compared to OT material and Paul's misinterpretations.
Anyway, apologies for replying before following up on the sources fully. I just really enjoy theological discussion and this topic has been deep in my mind for the past 14 months, with little chance to express it.
I literally just stated that I don't do that. If anything, the ESV and NIV are very much so less accurate. I included them only because they have a more present day display of the word in that context. "Evil" in the KJV context still means calamity.
God created angels. Demons created demons.
Misery and evil are entirely different things. You can make somebody miserable without being evil.
Can you give me an example of Jesus's contradiction please?
That's kind of my point, though. You're taking one translation as 'better' in this context because it fits your worldview. But regardless, if we do take your stance, how could anybody but God create something new? How could demons create themselves, without the approval of God? Why wouldn't God just eliminate evil? Surely he wouldn't want his enemies proliferating their corruption across his children — so why let them do it? Is he unable? In that case, he isn't all-powerful. Does he simply not want to? Then why would that be?
I didn't just say 'misery', I also said adversity, affliction, calamity, and distress. Affliction and calamity in particular seem like asburd things to create and cast upon your own children. No good parent would ever do that.
Again, this comes down to something I see an immutable: God cannot be both 'all-loving' AND 'all-powerful'. If he was both, then he'd either remove evil from the world, or make it not affect humans. As it is, he allows humans to be seduced by evil and then punishes them for it. That isn't loving at all, it's callous and cruel.
Either way, in your past metaphor of parenthood (about the three children, with two of them living bad lives and one living a good life), why is God unable to create them to be perfect? Doesn't seem all-powerful to me. "He gave them free will," some say, and I say: "But he also created free will. So why is it such an inefficient system? He created something flawed, and inflicted this half-baked concept upon his children. Doesn't seem all-powerful OR all-loving to me.
As for Jesus contradicting the Bible, there are larger points to this that I won't get into as it would require too much 'unpacking' as it were, but here are still some good examples.
Here's the best one: the Old Testament says "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" (Deuteronomy 19:21); but Jesus says: "You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also." (Matthew 5:38–39)
If Jesus is God, why would he contradict himself to such an extreme degree? I do not believe Jesus is the Abrahamic God at all, but a manifestation of a higher god than Sabaoth: the truly divine God of Good, for Jesus is a truly noble figure, unlike Sabaoth in all of his petty rage and jealousy. But if he is God, as you say, then he has majorly contradicted a part of the OT; and as you say, according to Timothy, all scripture is truth, so how does that work, exactly? How can both be the same, when Jesus mentioned the passage specifically, and declared it to be untrue?
The exemplary difference between Jesus and Sabaoth is that Jesus forgives, whilst Sabaoth punishes. They cannot be the same being for there is nothing that links them philisophically. Sabaoth is the Lord of the Armies of Israel, whilst Jesus is a true pacifist; Sabaoth unleashes wrath, whilst Jesus offers only forgiveness from his humble nature.
At the bottom of the article I posted above, it says:
"*Jesus is the “Word of God” made flesh
*Jesus as the Living Word of God has the authority to correct the written Word as-needed"
So that must mean that God mis-wrote, or mis-spoke, earlier; he made a mistake, which proves that he cannot be All-Knowing, either, for otherwise he would have known to speak correctly the first time. Seems that in your belief, your All-Knowing, All-Powerful God has made quite a number of blunders.
As to respond to your Timothy quotation, I've already used that line of scripture in my above arguments, so no need to go over it again other than to say that personally I entirely dismiss Timothy. Anything written past the lifespan of Jesus is useless to me, other than for theological arguments. I enjoy a lot of Romans and Revelation, but I see the former as Paul's corruptions of the word of Jesus, and the latter as the highly entertaining fever-dream of a lunatic.
Anyway, sorry, this got very long, I think I've made my point for now.
I probably would be considered 'transgender', yes, but it's not particularly descriptive of me. Or maybe it is. I don't know. Either way, I have prayed to Jesus about it many times, and Jesus has always given me support and unconditional love. Religiously I am some kind of Gnostic, with Marcionist influence. I still identify as 'Christian' and I wear two crucifixes around my neck, to symbolise Jesus's sacrifice and the love he gave to the world through his knowledge; however, I am not what most would consider a Christian, certainly no Catholic, and I renounced Sabaoth after musing upon such topics as the ones I've just posted about. I have felt true divine power from my worship of Christ, which converted me from an atheist, so my belief is very much based in a combination of direct ecstatic experience, and logical reasoning of where that experience came from. I believe that flesh is sin, and that both are created by the evil god Sabaoth, but that through the knowledge of Jesus and his love and sacrifice, we can escape this Hell On Earth created by a weak, hateful and stupid god, and ascend to a higher plane of existence. This knowledge was also given in similar form to Buddha as well as Jesus.
I included the ESV and NIV translation as an example to make it easier for readers to understand the synonym of "evil" in the KJV version. I see why you would think I am doing what you are specifying though. Just forget I even included those two versions, it might have screwed up things.
God gave them freedom of choice.
If you believe in Jesus, than why are you trying to debate that God is unable to do something, and therefore does not exist?
God's version of a spanking.
If God is omnipotent, He can be whatever He wants to be.
If you bake a muffin, do you desire it to be as intelligent as you?
Deuteronomy 19:21 speaks of crime punishment, while Matthew 5:38-39 speaks of personal offences. For example, getting cut off on the high way by a car. Two entirely different things. I would suggest you look into the context of both verses.
He didn't.
If you believe that anyone is above God, than you are not a Christian.
Oh, you are totally fine! I have Star Wars debates all the time, and they are like three times the size of this post when it gets serious, so I am used to it.
Fair enough. You seemingly only selectively responded to my whole post, anyway, missing any points that I made that you did not have an answer to.
Either way, your God does not seem at all loving to me, even just from your own posts regarding him. I would go into detail, but you don't want to hear it. I'm not surprised; I've found most Abrahamites and Paulites have their limits, especially when their beliefs are so challenged, and evidence is brought before them. 'God can do whatever the hell he likes' has never been a convincing argument to me, it reeks not of study of the Bible, but of indoctrination without personal reasoning, and certainly not of individual divine experience.
Perhaps one day you will accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, and not the degenerate warlord Sabaoth, who according to you, created us as muffins, and thus sees us as... food? Are we not his children? Of course a parent wants their child to be as intelligent as them, but if God sees us as a human sees a muffin they have baked, then I am not surprised at his half-baked results.
I have directly experienced the voice and work of Jesus Christ — he removed my lifelong depression the moment I accepted him into my heart and soul, an act impossible to nature — and so I am confident in my faith.
If you serve the dark lord Sabaoth, I am not surprised that you see gays and trans people as less than humans: for you hold his evil in your heart, and you judge others with the same malice as he.
"Judge not, that ye be not judged." (Matthew, 7:1)
Anyway, thanks for giving me an opportunity to spread the true word of Jesus Christ, it was entertaining. I hope one day you realise that he is the light, and the love, and the good.
But I'm also perfectly free to post anti-religious stuff.
I'm savvy and experienced enough to know that it's mostly pointless trying to argue the minutiae of theology with devout religious people. I know. I used to be one.
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