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outliers vs consistency
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leonidas
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outliers vs consistency

okay, so, i've been legit curious about this topic. it's come up a couple times recently. the question is how many times does a character need to show an ability/power for it to count as a legitimate ability in a vs match?

for example, combat speed. in a recent orion thread there were a few good speed feats posted, but the sheer number of feats utterly pales in comparison to the times he hasn't demonstrated combat speed in fights. so do we consider those few feats enough? it's happened with thor any number of times. the surfer suffers from the same issue. i remember people had a similar issue with superman back when he demonstrated t-vo (an ability i don't think was ever formally retconned so could still be viable....).

there are a number of these types of abilities that show up periodically. i guess the question is where do YOU draw the cut off line? if someone has 10 000 appearances, and showed an ability a dozen times, is that sufficient? if they showed it 3 times? what does and doesn't qualify as suitable support for an ability?

i've said in the past i tend to view battles on a spectrum--often out of 10 in my head. i make some allowances for outlying abilities then factor in what i feel are typical powers/tendencies based on what characters do MOST often. but if it's ONE battle, it becomes a lot more difficult. in single battles, how much support IS legitimate support?


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Old Post Apr 30th, 2021 06:36 PM
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Re: outliers vs consistency

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
it's happened with thor any number of times. the surfer suffers from the same issue. i remember people had a similar issue with superman back when he demonstrated t-vo (an ability i don't think was ever formally retconned so could still be viable....).

there are a number of these types of abilities that show up periodically. i guess the question is where do YOU draw the cut off line? if someone has 10 000 appearances, and showed an ability a dozen times, is that sufficient? if they showed it 3 times? what does and doesn't qualify as suitable support for an ability?

i've said in the past i tend to view battles on a spectrum--often out of 10 in my head. i make some allowances for outlying abilities then factor in what i feel are typical powers/tendencies based on what characters do MOST often. but if it's ONE battle, it becomes a lot more difficult. in single battles, how much support IS legitimate support?
This all assumes that power sets are defined by how often characters use them but I don’t think that’s necessarily true. Black Bolt comes to mind because of the tourney - relative to his appearance count the guy hardly ever matter/energy manips but the power is mentioned and/or shown just often enough to remind readers that he can.

More importantly, and (imo) more to the point of this thread, nothing’s really come up in the interim that obviously suggests or proves that he can’t.

I think consistency is an indicator but not definitive because some powers are used rarely but still exist. A power not being used doesn’t mean it vanished (absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence). But if a power is never used and other circumstances either strongly suggest or outright state that the character doesn’t have that power, then maybe the power is gone.

At least, that was my approach to arguing about Maker carrying a force field in our match. It’s difficult to prove that he isn’t always carrying one but his dialogue (and his getting punched in the face) definitely suggests that he isn’t.

Old Post Apr 30th, 2021 07:01 PM
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DarkSaint85
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I'm with Smurph.

Comic fights aren't forum fights. What may end a comic fight in the first panel (Surfer stopping time for example), would be fair game in a forum fight.

Comic fights are written so the character can struggle - no one wants to see, for example, Gladiator just uppercutting Hulk into space. So he grabs him ,and he chats ,and he uses HV etc etc. In short,PIS. But in a forum? Anything goes.

What limits it, then, is the character. Sure, Thor can transmute and absorb energy and summon storms etc etc....but most times, he wants to go fisticuffs, and just hit things with his hammer. Sure, Superman can cancel vibrations by singing, but 99.99% of the time, he punches really hard.

That's what separates the comic reader from the respect thread reader.


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Old Post Apr 30th, 2021 07:35 PM
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leonidas
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Okay so as relates to Orion then. Is it enough to say that since he so rarely demonstrates legit combat speed that we should say that in character he wouldn’t display said speed? That seems to contradict the surfer stops time. In character he wouldn’t. In a forum match everything goes? Or I’m misunderstanding you. Lol


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Old Post Apr 30th, 2021 07:52 PM
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I feel like a lot of this was at least partially referenced in the rules, but I wanna see where you guys go with it.


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Old Post Apr 30th, 2021 08:16 PM
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leonidas
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Really? Which rules do you think deal with this? I see the issue come up a lot I think. I'll use Orion again, because it fits the theme well. He has shown, in some cases, to possess super speed, but not often at all, relative to his appearances. But has it been shown enough to be considered in character, or is there enough legitimate support? I'm not sure using speed would be 'out of character' for him. But not every fight where he doesn't use it is PIS--I think most would agree with that. So is there enough support (Thor's speed has been argued similarly, but Thor has fewer speed feats than Orion (unless we use reaction speed) and Surfer combat speed feats are notorious sticking points in threads) to suggest Orion should be able to use super speed?

I'm legit not sure how to reconcile these types of issues. How much support qualifies as enough to prove something is a viable, in character ability or power?


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Old Post Apr 30th, 2021 08:22 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
Really? Which rules do you think deal with this? I see the issue come up a lot I think. I'll use Orion again, because it fits the theme well. He has shown, in some cases, to possess super speed, but not often at all, relative to his appearances. But has it been shown enough to be considered in character, or is there enough legitimate support? I'm not sure using speed would be 'out of character' for him. But not every fight where he doesn't use it is PIS--I think most would agree with that. So is there enough support (Thor's speed has been argued similarly, but Thor has fewer speed feats than Orion (unless we use reaction speed) and Surfer combat speed feats are notorious sticking points in threads) to suggest Orion should be able to use super speed?

I'm legit not sure how to reconcile these types of issues. How much support qualifies as enough to prove something is a viable, in character ability or power?


This here, specifically. The mods all pitched in iirc, I was just the one that posted it:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
Characters, generally, don't self-sabotage to the point that it will cost them the match, nor will they accelerate to 100 in the over-the-top use of their powers, unless it's something you can prove is a habit of theirs.

So, what IS In Character?

It's something that should easily be boiled down to "How a character will react when put in to a specific circumstance" namely a VS battle. How do we know this, or rather, should we know this? Simple: You can name any one of a dozen, if not two-dozen people on this board that could walk in to the offices of Marvel or DC and, like many other comic fans, be seen as having encyclopedic knowledge of a character or a team. The assumption is that with that knowledge comes a level of understanding of said character. If you're reasonably intelligent, and I know a lot of the people on this board are (even if they pretend to be dense as **** sometimes), understanding a character in broad strokes is not that hard.

For example, I've read less than... I'd say easily less than a hundred Spider-Man comics, but if you asked me to describe his personality, I could draw on said comics even without having seen movies or cartoons or even that weird TV show from the 80s, and tell you that Spider-Man is, deep down, just a person trying to do the right thing. He's a genius but also a nerd. He loves his aunt, he loves (or did love) his wife Mary Jane, and he would feel deeply the loss of anyone he couldn't save. That's simple stuff.

Now, if we talk about powers... I know the base-level stuff. I know he can stick to walls. I know he can shoot webs from web shooters he made himself. I know he has a Spider-Sense that warns him of danger. I know he's strong, durable and fast. Strong enough that he has to pull his punches so that a bank-robber's heart doesn't explode. Fast enough that he's not likely to get hit by gunfire. I have read that he's the most agile person in Marvel, though I don't know if that's true or just was at one point. But he does a LOT of flippy shit in his comics. That said, there are probably a bunch of applications of his powers that I haven't the foggiest idea about.

So, with those two in mind, as limited as it might be, I come to the third part: How Spider-Man fights In Character. How do I get there? Simple. As much as I want to be able to say "You go by how the character behaves, not how you would in their place", you still have to fill in the gaps once you take things like PIS out. But, and this is the important part, you are SUPPLEMENTING them. You are NOT. REPLACING. Shit. What you would do with Spider-Man or any other character's powers is great and all, but it's what leads to powerset v powerset, and is for tourneys, NOT for the general board. This part of the point is incredibly important. You are still operating within the paramaters of what a character WOULD do, as opposed to what they CAN do.

Even from reading the comics I've read, which I've already admitted is not that many in comparison to some of the people on this board, I can still say several things with reasonable certainty when it comes to Spider-Man: His superior agility means most enemies will have a hard time hitting him unless they have some hard counter to it like superior speed. He likes to use his webs, which means that character that specialise in melee are going to have a hard time against him, and Spider-Man KNOWS THIS. Because HE KNOWS THIS, he is smart enough to use this to his advantage. This means that because HE knows he doesn't have to close to melee range, that he won't stupidly decide halfway through the fight to try outpunching someone that could out-punch him. Or to waste time on someone that can be wrapped up with one shot of his webs. He can still get close up and win fights, sure, but that's an option, not a necessity.

Obviously, if someone knows Spider-Man better than I do, I'm going to end up getting corrected in threads when it comes to facts about the character, his power levels or his villains if I say something wrong, but the basic idea is still there. I've seen Spider-Man use his webs enough, to be competent in their use, and to avoid attacks while concentrating on his own, to know that at the very least, it's common behaviour. There's a reason "Spider-Man webs up Character X" is a viable tactic on the forum.

"But Pr," you might ask "What if a character has a power that they use more sparingly?". Well, to that I would say:

-Is it a part of their powerset and has been used occasionally enough (ie, like, a dozen times, maybe) that they won't forget they can use it?
-Can they access this power/ability right now?
-Will not using it cost them the fight?

And that right there? That's arguably the most important question.

If the answer to all three of those is yes, then they're most likely going to use the power/ability. Either their opponent can stand up to it, or they can't.

Is that simple enough? I mean, what else do you really need to know?

For the last part of this point, I'm going to use a character I know a bit better: Wally West. Flash is notorious on the forum, and you could say some of it is earned. Most of it, however, is not the fault of the character. If you, as a poster, put The Flash against someone that does not have the means to hurt him, then that is on YOU. It's not The Flash's fault that he's not going to slow down or trip over a branch just to give a substantially slower character a chance against him. And no, no talking shit about the Rogues, btw; they're all designed from the ground up to fight The Flash. They're not ammo for your favourite street leveller to have a shot against him.

If you put Deathstroke up against Flash and try to argue using Identity Crisis as evidence, you deserve to get laughed out of the thread. Like a whole lot of Marvel and DC, you get a writer that writes interesting character studies, or great fights. You rarely get both, and that fight, as entertaining as it was, should have been over before Deathstroke was even able to exhale.

-Now, continuing to use the Flash, and to briefly talk about the Superman Vs Weapon H thread:

A character like the Flash is not going to get hit by someone substantially slower than him unless they have some counter to his powers. Simple as that. Wally West isn't Superman (and I'm going to get in to this in a later post). He can't afford to get hit more than once or twice before it starts to actually impact his ability to win the fight. And this, at the end of all of this ranting on the subject, is where I try to lay it out as best as I can:

The Flash/Relevant Character X will use, at a bare minimum, the least amount of speed/Relevant Power, that he is capable of using under average/normal circumstances, required to not lose the fight, or get so badly injured that it will most-likely cost him the fight. Every superhero or supervillain has a minimum amount of effort and competence that they will utilise going in to a fight. For villains that's usually a higher starting point because they like to not hold back, sure, but the heroes aren't going to be stupid either. They are not going to self-sabotage, and they will not let pride, ego or forgetting they have a way to win the fight to get in the way.


-If you put Flash up against someone that can't beat him without PIS, that's not his fault. That's yours.
-If you put Shadowcat up against someone that can't get around her intangibility without PIS, that's not her fault. That's yours.
-If you put someone up against Xavier that can't get past his telepathy to push him down the stairs, again, that's not his fault. That's yours.

This whole idea of putting lesser character up against ones they can't (and notice I said can't, not won't) beat just because you like them more? I doubt it's going to stop, but seriously, anyone who does it? You're not being clever. We all see what you're doing. You should stop. You'll be better off.

If you read this far, congrats. I really hope this, or at least part of this, has cleared things up for anyone who wasn't sure.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
I would also add that if the thread starter doesn't want certain abilities/tactics to be used in their thread, all they have to do is specify such in the OP. Problem solved.

We cannot possibly account for every shred of ridiculous BS that certain people might try to argue in threads. All we can do is make blanket rules/generalizations and hope that everyone is adult enough to understand their purpose.


I'm not saying it's applicable to everything you said. I just think it will in parts is all.


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Old Post Apr 30th, 2021 08:35 PM
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DarkSaint85
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
Okay so as relates to Orion then. Is it enough to say that since he so rarely demonstrates legit combat speed that we should say that in character he wouldn’t display said speed? That seems to contradict the surfer stops time. In character he wouldn’t. In a forum match everything goes? Or I’m misunderstanding you. Lol


Didn't we have this discussion with Weapon H and Superman? Lol.


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Old Post Apr 30th, 2021 08:36 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
Okay so as relates to Orion then. Is it enough to say that since he so rarely demonstrates legit combat speed that we should say that in character he wouldn’t display said speed? That seems to contradict the surfer stops time. In character he wouldn’t. In a forum match everything goes? Or I’m misunderstanding you. Lol


The question is: does a character possess speed?
In character, almost all characters will use their speed if they know that is the only way to win.


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Old Post Apr 30th, 2021 08:45 PM
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Old Post Apr 30th, 2021 08:59 PM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Didn't we have this discussion with Weapon H and Superman? Lol.


We did? confused

This is about a number. Not sure we ever talked about that.


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Old Post Apr 30th, 2021 09:23 PM
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Last edited by Philosophía on Apr 30th, 2021 at 09:33 PM

Old Post Apr 30th, 2021 09:24 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
We did? confused

This is about a number. Not sure we ever talked about that.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

again, i would NOT say superman was dumb for deciding to take a hit--even a huge hit. he's been hit, literally, 1000s upon 1000s of times, and it rarely means anything to him. it is rare in comics where he actually EXPRESSES pain, and when he does, it is usually accompanied by sheer surprise. he doesn't 'not dodge' because he's dumb--at least not any dumber than we are for not jumping out of the way of an ant crawling on the sidewalk. the ant still hits me but do i care? i'm pretty sure this mentality has been expressed by superman on panel more than once. THAT mentality is every bit as reasonable as calling PIS in.....almost every single one of his appearances? is it really more reasonable to ignore almost every single showing than it is to accept an alternative explanation to PIS?

honest question for everyone, mods included: how often DOES something have to happen for it to be considered IN CHARACTER? phil and others say that wh should be a statue. in 99.999999% of his appearances, superman definitively does NOT see the world in that way. so how can it possibly be considered IN CHARACTER for him to see the world that way in a forum match?

it seems to me (i may well be alone here) that by saying yes, he can legit, and in character, see wh as a statue, that we are simply and blatantly ignoring the vast, vast VAST majority of superman's showings. wouldn't that disparity be enough to say that seeing wh that way WOULD and SHOULD be considered out of character? if not that, then....what, aside from saying superman tries to kill him, WOULD be ooc?

as i've said, there ARE legit reasons for superman NOT seeing the world this way, and even for getting hit: he'd be bored. he'd feel more alienated. he'd be further highlighting his differences from humans. habit. a genuine sense of near invulnerability. over confidence. a sincere belief he is simply more powerful than whomever he faces based on his huge number of victories. etc... none of those would indicate he is retarded, and all of them reflect areas of his CHARACTER that have been shown in comics--where his character is determined.

maybe i'm over thinking. lol but it feels like falling back on PIS all the time (which happens...a LOT here) really doesn't take into account the character of the character. it feels like the easy way to go and that route devolves quickly into power set battles. there are other forums for that--we usually make fun of them.

so, where is the line between full capacity and character? where do we draw the line between a tiny fraction of high feats and what is considered out of character? legit questions. and my 'hidden agenda' is really not so hidden. i'd just really like to see more, and better discussion in the forum. maybe looking more closely at what is and isn't out of character is a way to engender some of that.



Almost 2 years apart. Then you left the forum for a bit, after mods stepped in and clarified.


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Old Post Apr 30th, 2021 09:43 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Almost 2 years apart. Then you left the forum for a bit, after mods stepped in and clarified.


You make it seem like we forced him out or something lol


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Old Post Apr 30th, 2021 09:47 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
You make it seem like we forced him out or something lol


Lol maybe it was carver I'm getting him mixed up with


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Old Post Apr 30th, 2021 09:48 PM
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Philosophía
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On a serious note, speed has been beaten to death. I can give you a general answer as far as my opinion on abilities in general, but to go through that particular ability [that at this point has been very thoroughly discussed between posters and mods to the point where there's been clear rulings made] is legit groundhog day. Threads where people don't want other people to get statue'd should have speed equalized or something.

(1)
If the question of the thread is "how many times has an ability have to be used to consider it valid", well, it depends what ability and what you mean by valid [i.e. frequency to be used in a random thread]. I think the more complex the ability, the bigger the proof has to be that the character will use it enough number of times to be considered "valid" and not sporadic. I.e. while matter manipulation is complex, Firestorm's plethora of proof is more than enough that he will use it. But I don't think it's in the first 8 things somebody like Guy Gardner would use, even if he has that ability. Martian Manhunter would use phasing, Supergirl wouldn't even if they both have that ability.

My general rule of thumb is: If I give a 13 year old general knowledge of the character and his abilities, will he do what is claimed the character would? If yes [i.e. he'd dodge attacks that he doesn't want to take, he'd hit as hard as he has to win [with CIS on, short of killing], he'd blast as powerful as he'd need to in order to win], then that's the starting point, and the rest can be discussed.

(2).
If the question of the thread is "How many times has an ability have to appear in order to be considered as existent?" -- well, on this I think there's a lot of leeway. Technically speaking, to your T-VO example -- I can still argue it exists. It has never been officially removed out of continuity, just not used anymore. But reading the comics, "does Superman have a technique in his backpocket that can counter multiversal reality warpers?" isn't exactly something that rings true.

To quote Smurph:
quote:
I think consistency is an indicator but not definitive because some powers are used rarely but still exist. A power not being used doesn’t mean it vanished (absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence). But if a power is never used and other circumstances either strongly suggest or outright state that the character doesn’t have that power, then maybe the power is gone.


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Old Post Apr 30th, 2021 10:19 PM
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leonidas
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Yeah I don’t get where the speed thing is coming from and this question is quite a bit different from that other discussion. I used Orion as an example because he’s rarely demonstrated speed so I want to know if people think he has enough showings of speed to make it a viable defense/offense for him. Gardners matter manip is a good example though as is black bolts. Neither one uses it very often. In fact it’s extremely rare nowadays. But would it be ooc for bolt to use matter manip? There’s no real reason it would be. But he has very few showings of it when weighed against his appearances. Are those few showings enough to make it a viable option to use in a single match scenario?

I’m not talking about what’s in character. I’m asking how many times does something have to be used to be considered a valid ability.


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Old Post May 1st, 2021 12:52 AM
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leonidas
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Maybe a better way to phrase the question is when does something STOP being considered an outlier and become something that can be fairly used in a match?


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Old Post May 1st, 2021 12:54 AM
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If it's a canon ability and hasn't been explicitly shown to be gone then it's safe to say it can be used.


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Old Post May 1st, 2021 01:11 AM
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If we go by comicvine, everything Superman does is outlier except where he looks bad then it's consistent and everything Thor does is consistency except where he looks bad then it's an outlier. Because Thor and Superman are still peers somehow.


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