!!!!!!!!!!!! Bentley vs Darksaint [Spring Tourney FINAL] !!!!!!!!!!!!
We are here! After going through the other contestants the two meet again!
Bentley[Superboy[Conner Kent]/Mirror Master]
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Darksaint[Lobo]
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Rules:
- no bfr
- no prep
- 0.5 km starting distance
- battlefield = normal Earth that regenerates [i.e. can't be permanently destroyed], can't leave the battlefield without getting back in max 30 sec.
- Mirror Dimension is not considered as BFR. It's a valid dimension to be in without losing the match by self-BFR and it's also not considered as BFR-ing the opponent.
- location: New York
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Judges:
Pr
Delta
Diesldude
__________________
“Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom. The freedom to leave.”
It seems that DarkSaint conceived his plan under the impression that he was in position to somehow speed blitz a character that is faster than he is. Because Superboy is dismantling his bike before Lobo even gets to react and freezing him as he falls down like the brick he is.
The bike is fast, of course, it's a spaceship after all, but at no point riding a spaceship would make me outreact an opponent that can catch up with bullets after they've been fired. For all intents and purposes he's an statue waiting for Superboy to mess up with his every plan. Think about this for a second: in the past three matches when has DarkSaint advanced undeniable proof that Lobo has enhanced reflexes to a degree that would outclass Mirror Master's? Don't you think he'd have posted such scans already if he could?
Throwing the numbers of how fast the bike can be is a red herring because the speed of our characters is not evenly matched. This was a decent idea against Wendigo or Blackbolt that started their actions at a similar pace when compared to Lobo and because the starting distance allowed him to enact his getaway plan safely. Let alone the fact that he wants to make you think he's throwing nukes, shooting and unloading every gun in his bike before he even bullrushes Mirror Master at high match speeds. He's not going to be fast enough to start the bike, let alone look for weaponry inside his pants lol
Maybe we should consider how fast Superboy is instead: the circumference of Earth is 40,007.863 km, so if he was to race around it in a few minutes let's lowball it and say "a few" stands for 12. It would take him less than a 100th of a second to clean that starting distance and disable the bike. When have you seen Lobo shoot or react in that kind of delay?
Mirror Master disappeared in thin air by being in the sight of a speedster and carried someone away with him. Nothing in the scan suggests that this action complex manouvers such as aiming, finding the opponent, and the action I want him to enact is simpler than the one shown in the scan (there are less passengers). Does this look more complex than the motion of throwing a hand grenade and have it go off?
There are orders of magnitude to this: how much faster would you need to be in order to carry a much complex action towards an opponent you haven't located while trying to also start your bike?
The same issue with Lobo's shooting abilities, they are neat but they are not being used at 500 meters of distance:
Even in that small showing you can see Lobo pausing before taking the shot. DarkSaint is trying to convince you that these actions will be carried seamlessly despite the proof he advances being unconvincing to achieve what he pretends to do. Has the bike ever been activated in a fashion that implies it was started before anyone can react?
I don't really care about the durability of the bike as we've seen tactile telekinesis dismantling robots and alien guns immediately.
Unlike his plans my strategy is clearly defined by the showings I've provided and since he knows that he has tried his best to lowball my scans (Superboy might be an inferior clone of Superman but he's faster than you are). You can indeed complain about Mirror Master because his speed showings come from scaling, but doesn't that cut both ways? How fast is Lobo when you stop measuring him against the daxamites and kryptonians of DC? Can DarkSaint clearly and conclusively prove that those 500 meters aren't an impossible distance for him to overcome in order to reach Mirror Master before teleporting.
The only way DarkSaint can hope to win is if he carries all these fuzzy complex manouvers before I carry out an action that is simpler than the one covered in two panels.
One last twist
Let's say that you believe that Lobo can still somehow sneak away from Superboy with his bike intact despite him trying to focus somewhere else. It turns out the bike is actually a death trap because Mirror Master can use really small reflective surfaces as a portal and shoot from there:
Spring Tourney Final
Post 2
This is what I love most about Bentley. Even when the chips are down, when he is fighting an uphill battle, does he throw in the towel? No - he fights on, and he bravely rises up to the challenge. Judges, he at the very least (if nothing else) deserves some pluck points.
Let’s look at his OP again. As I predicted and refuted, he used the exact same Mirror Master and Superboy speed scans, both of which are inferior to Lobo’s. Relying on PIS for Mirror Master, and...well, just an inferior feat for Superboy, so that MM could escape and Superboy can attempt to attack Lobo head-on.
Big mistake.
His 2nd post just...he just doubles down on that MM scan. Tries to throw shade on my scans, but the problem is, [colour=red]they are simply red herrings[/colour]
I don’t have to cross 500m to reach him. This isn’t h2h combat. I’m not using my hook and chain on him. As I showed in my OP: (please log in to view the image)
I literally oneshot planets, lol. I am not trying to reach him before he teleports out, I am shooting blasts that destroy entire planets in a single shot.
Anything and everything else (the nukes etc) are all simply distractions, which, as you can see, dear reader, worked. Bentley has tried to focus on these side attacks, and has ignored the fact that a single shot from the bike is powerful enough to blow the entire battlefield up. I mean, is he going to really need to aim? But by-the-by: https://i.postimg.cc/RV94Sjcp/RCO007-1583504579.jpg
Lobo casually tears a tooth out and kills a fly with it. Sure, small potatoes, and any high street level character could replicate that - the point being he’s not ‘pausing’ to take aim.
And as I said in my OP - how much aiming does a nuke need, lol. Let alone a planet killer?
So match starts, and the entire arsenal is being thrown (sometimes literally) at him. I am not aiming precision sniping shots over 500m, I am blowing the entire world up (which would obviously self-heal after). I mean, Bentley says his is a simple plan - I am literally just shooting. Fuzzy complex maneuvers, indeed.
I do like, though, how he just casually handwaves the bike’s durability away. So what, Superboy can just dismantle...anything and everything now?
The Batplane?
Skuttlebutt?
Kelex?
A GL ring?
Gem of Cyttorak?
Adamantium?
Cap’s shield?
Mjolnir?
The Entropy Aegis?
Celestials?
Why stop at mere machines? We know Superboy’s TTK works on living things - why not claim he can disassemble Superman? TOAA? I think you get the point here - I have proven that the bike has incredible durability (and can prove it further, but I was not challenged on this), just as all the items I have named have incredible durability (well, apart from Bruce’s toys). Do we just handwave it all away because Conor has affected some alien guns? No.
This goes for his transmutation as well, btw. Vril Dox, one of the smartest geniuses in the DCU, with prep, managed to alter Lobo’s blood - and now, suddenly, MM can? Who else can MM transmute into glass - Doomsday? Darkseid? The entirety of Apokolips? Perpetua? Note how Bentley didn’t actually show MM transmuting anyone of note...I mean, nameless parademons? Really?
So let’s add that to the list of claims he’s making. And then….and then….you can see how he subtly tries to shift it to ‘oh, yeah ok maybe the bike survives, but mwahaha! Transmute!!’
Can’t keep the Main Man down. All a direct hit does is give him some burns, take an arm off - he’s still fighting and cracking jokes the next time we see him.
That of course, assumes MM even gets the chance to escape - which, as I have tried to hammer time and time again, he simply does not get to do.
Some random other points Bentley tries to bring up
Susceptible to gas? Here is Lobo against a guy who has poison breath - ‘no man alive’ can withstand it. Lobo just vomits: https://i.postimg.cc/hPbKVcm3/RCO016-1469404747.jpg
I need ‘time’ to dig in my trousers for the right weapon? Bentley baby, for you, the right weapon would always magically be there in my hand, ready and cocked: https://i.postimg.cc/N08qTxZq/RCO020-1493776504.jpg
By the way - he transmuted me into glass, and teleported me into a volcano, lmao. I mean, can you guess what sulfuric acid is stored in?Yup, glass bottles. It literally won’t affect me: (please log in to view the image)
But that is just art, right (even though we have clear dialogue from HUMAN LEVEL characters calling it a tornado, and we see what they see - in short, that he is superhuman in speed).
Judges, let me be clear. I am NOT saying Lobo is Superman level in speed (although… ). What I AM saying, is that he has SUPERhuman levels of speed - all I need to do is be faster than a mere human (in this case, MM) in attacking. Once I get my attack off, MM dies. Simple as that. Superboy may try, but without proof, we cannot simply say he disassembles a bike as durable as the SpaceFrag666 based on ‘alien guns’ (which Bentley didn’t even bother to post, lol). And even IF he did….I am still hurling nukes with star level strength.
One last twist
Yummy. I wanted to leave this in case I had to face Black Bolt or Ghost Rider etc, but as I don’t….let’s throw it in there.
A secret technique that Lobo learnt, that creates a solar-system wide explosion.
And we haven’t even started using clones yet, lmao. Or throwing moons, or my Red Lantern Ring (oh yes - look back at the R.E.B.E.L.S scans, including my ½ lightspeed scan - Lobo has a red ring gifted by Atrocitus): (please log in to view the image)
[Summary
Judges, as promised, Bentley did not show any proof of human-level Mirror Master having any kind of speed, beyond PIS. Did not show MM’s gun being able to transmute anyone of note. Superboy has *some* speed, which is inferior to mine, but nothing he can do can actually hurt me, let alone my bike.
On the other hand - I have guns (that need aiming skills, which I have). I have nukes (which do not need any aiming). Blasters which one-shot entire planets (no aiming needed). Techniques which can destroy entire solar systems (if needed).
Durability which handles point blank, reality warping, direct hit quantum lightning strikes.
A gazillion clones, again, if needed.
The ability to transmute myself back.
In short, his entire strategy is based on: PIS speed for MM, no limits for MM’s gun, and no limits for Conor’s TTK. And even IF you bought what Bentley is peddling - so what? He turns me into glass, I chill in a volcano, then transmute myself right back (assuming I don’t just fight as glass, lol). Once I transmute myself back…I mean, a living Sun couldn’t burn me, and I can now throw the moon at him. Or blow the system up.
Assuming he even gets the chance to do so, after I shoot the entire planet to bits in a single blast.
Let me start by thanking DarkSaint, Phil, the judges and the other debaters that made this tourney happen. It has been good fun and I'm glad we actually got enough traction to pull off a few of these.
DarkSaint brought a meaty second post so I have a few things to counter, but not a whole lot that is not considered in my previous arguments. Essentially my plan hasn't changed because it works: I went for the bike immediately with the only character capable of blitzing and the bike was the venue of offense DS decided to use, which only works to my advantage.
He has tried to sell you his opening attack as if Lobo started the fight with his finger in a button that was going to make his bike homing rush at Mirror Master and shoot everything at once. He pretends that the gesture to activate every gun he has, throwing nukes and planet busting shots will have this 1/2 lightspeed acceleration magically attached to it. To me doing all this while aiming at me is actually more complex than the simple gesture Mirror Master does to disappear into the Mirror World.
Realizing his supposed speed-blitz was not going to fly so easily (pun intended), he started to backtrack and claim he doesn't even need to aim. He still claimed he'd aim, he even stressed he was focusing on a specific target.
"I SPECIFICALLY target his mirror gun (as much as one can ‘target’ with nukes, lol). I probably simply vapourise him, tbh."
Let's ignore Superboy for a bit. You probably think "well, aiming and activating everything at long distance might be more complex than what Bentley tries to accomplish with Mirror Master, but DarkSaint should be fine as long as Lobo outclasses Mirror Master speedwise". That's a fine opinion, but unfortunately DarkSaint failed to prove that, as I said he would.
Superhuman Rapidity
In order to prove Lobo's reactions DarkSaint brought four scans. In the first one he was casually evaded by a fodder greenlantern, which was... Fast? Maybe? It's not as if Lobo was matching him in the scans either.
And we can all agree that guy is no Flash. Then DarkSaint brought scans of Lobo spinning very fast like a top (twice) and then spinning a chain really fast. But the general spinning motion is not very complex at all and Lobo is not really reacting to anything, just moving fast in a predictable pattern, which can be achieved simply by using a lot of strength in the pivoting point (the center of the chain and the foot depending on the example). While the movements are fast they tell us exactly nothing about his refllexes.
Can Lobo pull off absolutely supehuman movement speed? Absolutely. Can he do it before a human being gets to react? We have absolutely zero proof of that in these scans.
No conclusive evidence has been provided that Lobo can start his bike and shoot any faster than Mirror Master can teleport away.
Dismantling arguments (and bikes)
Tactile Telekinesis has a proved and true history of specializing in dismantling mechanisms. Somehow that compelled DarkSaint to cry I pretend it has limitless capabilities and that his durability should protect him from harm. But I'm not punching it. The thing about Tactile Telekinesis is that it gives me access to the weakest parts of any machine by just touching it, I am not punching you in the spacecraft fuselage designed to repel misiles and heavy fire, I'm sniping cables and busting your electronics, the hinges that unlock the places where your weapons are stored. I can do that easily:
Remember how Scarlett Witch used to mess up classic Ultron with her hexes by attacking his insides despite his adamantium shell? That's how much durability is going to matter here: I am breaking and separating every thing that be separated and then using my freezing breath on you.
The second round of accusing me of going no limits came with the transmutation. Weird. I literally brought a page of Lobo getting transmutated, here it is again:
Saying I'm pretending Perpetua could get turned into glass is disingenious and a strawman. Let's move on.
Vril Dox, one of the smartest geniuses in the DCU, with prep, managed to alter Lobo’s blood
He tried to achieve something more complex than simply changing Lobo's molecular structure into useless poo. He wanted a fully functional Lobo with a slight change. Can't really compare it to what's happening here.
Matter and matters
This sounds like its effects are pretty random and Lobo did get messed up by it. We have no way of equating ripping time and space to controlled matter transmutation either. The scans are not clear of how this disproves anything about my claim nor how this cannot be simply considered regular durability.
Finally the claims about transmutation. Let's start by the... Weird snail scans.
So what happened in this issue is that Lobo became a ghost, the snails ate his corpse and then he possessed one of the snails, ate the other snails that were still digesting his corpse and then he added his skeleton to it until he finally regenerated.
That is... A comicbook. But it hardly would count as a measure to counter matter manipulation, Lobo is there admitting without enough of his original body (non glass form) he has no way of regenerating.
Regarding the sulfuric acid not affecting glass, well, as long as Lobo remains in glass form he doesn't have any hope of coming back to the fight. The acid would chip away any kind of regeneration that could happen there and at least make it slow enough to count as a win to me. I have other insta-kills that I could throw on top of that but it's honestly unneeded at this point.
Last recap:
- Mirror Master doesn't need to have Flash like reflexes as Lobo failed to prove his own reflexes make a difference.
- Superboy has actually proved he can go well beyond human reactions and has the speed to carry out his plan.
- People who have been transmutated can be transmutated.
- Machines that have electronics can get their electronics broken.
- My plan is perfectly adapted to counter DarkSaint's original plan.
Thanks for your attention!
__________________
“Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom. The freedom to leave.”
Judges, I must confess - I have cheated most egregiously. For you see, despite Lobo being named as a Mid-Herald, he is far, FAR more than that. And that is not just me tooting my own usage of him, in canon, comics also state this: (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)
Unfortunately for my esteemed opponent, however, forum rules of Full Capacity meant that low showings are pretty much inadmissible, and we HAVE to take into account his feats which ‘reach well into the near infinite strata’.
In short, his high showings. Not that those scans are needed, as we alwayshave ‘full capacity’ on anyway, but that was just a reminder that I have shown throughout this tourney, Lobo has showings which comics have given an explanation for. Call it Toon Force, call it outliers, call it whatever you want - just call them canon.
Btw - I noticed I had a broken link in my previous post. A reminder, that sulfuric acid is kept in glass bottles PRECISELY because it has no effect on it: (please log in to view the image)
A reminder of Bentley’s ‘simple’ OP:
Judges, let’s recap, and I will run through the battle’s timeline with you. Match starts, and I throw everything, including (probably) the kitchen sink at him as I fly towards him, whilst he attempts to escape with MM, and fly at me with Superboy.
He tries to use Superboy’s TTK against me, with no proof that it would work. The bike has *incredible* durability of its own, able to survive the largest traffic accident in the cosmos’ history: https://i.postimg.cc/mZ1xyRvy/RCO022-1469536543.jpg
Now, I am sure Bentley has some scans of the bike being destroyed. OK, good (although, judges, you *should* ignore them as they are new arguments being made, and Bentley specifically said he didn’t care about the durability). Thing is - that doesn’t mean Superboy can do so. We cannot simply give the TTK no limits. Can he use the TTK to disassemble WW’s bracers? Adamantium? Galactus’ ship? Galactus himself? The IG? Living beings like Superman? Perpetua?
So what then happens?
We know MM is human-level. Yes, I fully agree that he tangles with the Flash - but in a forum fight? Because if we wanted to go down that route:
And the famous scan, overwhelms Superman with his speed - WHILST LOBO IS DRUNK: (please log in to view the image)
Sure, I freely admit, there is scaling going on (along with my previous scans in post 2 which AREN’T scaling, btw). But there is a world of difference - had Bentley’s scan specifically had Jay remarking ‘Damn, McCulloch is too fast for me’, then we might have something. In MY scan, we clearly see Superman (Superboy’s superior) saying Lobo is too fast for him, and he didn’t even have time to react. THAT’S a clear difference in our proofs.
So if we can permit this tiny, infinitesimally small indulgence of mine, and assume the teensy tiny chance that a guy who is explicitly too fast by Superman’s own admission (whilst drunk) is somehow able to outspeed a mere human, then…
The entire battlefield erupts in bullets and explosions. McCulloch dies in the first instance. Superboy MAY survive (no proof given of his durability, btw) and he’s...what, trying to take my bike out? Which we have proven is pretty damn durable.
Then the issue, judges, is either he takes it out or he doesn’t. Let’s entertain the possibility he doesn’t take it out - then Lobo beats the crap out of him, either with nukes shoved into his mouth, or with planet killing shots, or with the Secret Exploding Numbers, or with the Red Lantern Ring, or by throwing a moon, or by simply beating the crap out of him, etc etc.
IF he does - so what? Lobo rode into this battle with his tongue under his teeth - the Clone Army will then arrive to beat the crap out of him, and potentially (literally) tear him to pieces. Not to mention, all I need do is say ‘One trillion’ and the entire city goes up in smoke.
What is worse for Bentley, is that if ANY ONE of the clones says it, that too explodes - they all have his memories and experience.
But let us ignore ALL of my tactics, and focus on Bentley’s.
Let us assume somehow, that a human is able to outspeed bullets. Outspeed planet killing blasts. Outspeed a nuclear explosion (I mean, McCulloch still has to physically draw his gun and pull the trigger, but let us assume he’s somehow got his gun ready). So he escapes.
Meanwhile, Superboy destroys the bike (because why not). And let us assume that Lobo, who has greater speed than Superman, lets him...freeze the area, to create surfaces for MM, and slow him down (ignoring, of course, the fact that Lobo literally rides around in deep space with no space suit, lol).
We assume all of this passes (note how ridiculous this is sounding?)
MM then pops up, transmutes Lobo (assuming he can, because he did it to random parademons, so why not, and in the next thread I will have MM fight the Phoenix Force and Perpetua and ALSO transmute them into glass because no limits) into glass, and then….
Superboy then flies over to Indonesia, throws this glass Lobo (who doesn’t do anything because of reasons) into a volcano, and...steps back to let it finish the job, either through sulphuric acid or the gas.
I am not sure this is hammered home hard enough, judges - but after EVERYTHING Bentley does, and IF we assume it all comes to pass, he still doesn’t actually finish the job, lol. This is almost comical in its cliched-ness. This is the equivalent of a hero turning his back on the movie monster, assured that it’s finally dead without even checking.
Lobo would simply transmute himself back (as he did with the snail) and vows vengeance on Superboy/MM. Maybe build a mirror gun of his own and fight human McCulloch in the Mirror World. As for that gas vulnerability? (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)
His standard cigars are enough to kill humans, lol. I mean, not to mention he doesn’t breathe in space, but heyho, apparently Bentley ignores that.
Summary
Judges, for me to win, the only thing we have to assume, is that Lobo is faster than MM. That really is all there is to it. Whether it be Lobo saying ‘one trillion’ and the city/continent being destroyed, or a nuke, or his bike destroying the earth, either way, in the first instance there is going to be a massive AoE explosion. The bike itself is almost incidental - even IF Superboy takes it down, Lobo can still say a large number (not to mention clones etc). Bentley’s entire plan hinges on MM escaping with his human level reflexes to the Mirror World.
For Bentley to win, you have to assume MM is faster than a guy who was explicitly too fast for Superman.
That he can transmute Lobo (who shrugged off a reality warping lightning blast point blank), and in turn, that Lobo can’t transmute back (when he has shown he can warp the vessels his spirit inhabits).
That Lobo can’t do anything whilst in glass form (note how Bentley isn’t sure of this, as his OP entertains the possibility of regeneration).
That Superboy can destroy the bike (despite it casually traversing space and entering planetary atmospheres, being in giant explosions etc).
That the poison gas in a volcano is then sufficient to kill a guy who literally breathes poison gas for fun (and I am not even going to entertain the acid corroding the glass, as that cannot be an assumption - walk into any lab in the world and they will have acid stored in glass bottles).
Then after all of that, Bentley turns his back on Lobo, and goes off on his merry way without actually making sure he’s dead, lol. Whilst I have shown plenty of scans to show that there exists proof that Lobo would just come back.
(please log in to view the image)
And THEN, we have to assume Lobo doesn’t do anything in revenge (come on now).
Now sit back and ask, which is more plausible?
Thanks for reading, judges, and thanks for being the best opponent I could have had, Bentley. I almost did a completely different rewrite where I hilariously threw the match in your favour, and it would have been glorious, but the forum was not ready for it.
__________________
“Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom. The freedom to leave.”
KMC Community Forums
May 5th, 2021 09:49 AM
). What I AM saying, is that he has SUPERhuman levels of speed - all I need to do is be faster than a mere human (in this case, MM) in attacking. Once I get my attack off, MM dies. Simple as that. Superboy may try, but without proof, we cannot simply say he disassembles a bike as durable as the SpaceFrag666 based on ‘alien guns’ (which Bentley didn’t even bother to post, lol). And even IF he did….I am still hurling nukes with star level strength.
