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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » What if Mace killed Sidious??


What if Mace killed Sidious??
Started by: Sheev

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Sheev
The All-Sith

Registered: Apr 2018
Location: Exegol


 

What if Mace killed Sidious??

Lets say Anakin arrives too late, and Mace successfully killed Sidious.. What happens next? How would events play out differently?


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Old Post Nov 23rd, 2021 12:45 AM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

Well that would be before Order 66, and with Dooku also dead, the Jedi would still be around for a long time. Anakin won't turn and in fact would have gained Mace's trust.

Luke and Leia would grow up as Jedi I'm guessing.

Politically though, the Jedi would be screwed for assassinating the Chancellor.

I'm guessing Palpatine didn't have a clone body to transfer to at this point. Might not have even had the knowledge to do so, so he should be proper dead.

Old Post Nov 23rd, 2021 10:47 AM
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Underachiever59
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2017
Location:


 

The Jedi would have been left with no choice but to seize political control of the Senate after assassinating Palpatine. It's something Yoda and Mace even discussed, iirc. Sifo Dyas had visions of two possible outcomes of the Clone Wars. Either the Sith create a galaxy spanning Empire, or the Jedi completely lose their way by effectively reforming the galaxy into a theocratic dictatorship.

Either way, the galaxy is kind of thrown into chaos. The issues that many worlds had with the Republic would be exacerbated by Jedi rule, especially after the Separatist's propaganda during the Clone Wars. A "Rebellion" would rise up against the Jedi rule, lead by several former Separatists, much like the Alliance to Restore the Republic. All the while, the Jedi would completely lose their already tenuous ability to follow the will of the Force, as they get mired in politics.

Mace killing Palpatine may have prevented the rise of the Empire and the destruction of Alderaan, as well as stopping everything from the Sequel Trilogy from ever coming to pass. But I can't see the future of that galaxy turning out all that bright and cheerful either.

Old Post Nov 23rd, 2021 07:26 PM
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Tzeentch
#gottem

Registered: Dec 2009
Location: Morgan's Maxim


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Underachiever59
The Jedi would have been left with no choice but to seize political control of the Senate after assassinating Palpatine.
Why? 1. with Palpatine dead there's no reason for why the Senate wouldn't be more sympathetic to the Jedi anyway and 2. it's not really a "assassination" as they would have had video footage of him attacking them when they came to arrest him.


__________________

"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."

Old Post Nov 23rd, 2021 09:47 PM
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Underachiever59
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2017
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Tzeentch
Why? 1. with Palpatine dead there's no reason for why the Senate wouldn't be more sympathetic to the Jedi anyway and 2. it's not really a "assassination" as they would have had video footage of him attacking them when they came to arrest him.


Palpatine was extremely, extremely popular in the Senate. And being a Sith wasn't technically a crime at that point in time (as pointed out by Sheev himself in the RotS novel). Their attempted arrest, with no actual evidence of his crimes, was illegal, so he technically acted in self defense. And they didn't have video of the attack, only audio (again, in the RotS novel). So once they killed Palpatine, there was a very, very strong likelihood that the Senate would turn on the Jedi. Especially since the Jedi were very unpopular by the end of the war, with a considerable amount of the Galactic citizenry blaming the Jedi for the war in the first place.

I don't remember if the conversation happened in the novel or the movie or a deleted scene, but Yoda and Mace did actually discuss having to take direct control of the Senate for a time once the war ends. The Jedi council just viewed it as a necessity to restore balance to the galaxy.

Old Post Nov 24th, 2021 06:11 AM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Underachiever59
Their attempted arrest, with no actual evidence of his crimes, was illegal,



Was it? Remember they were discussing arresting him before they knew he was a Sith, simply because he was wayyyy past his terms limits and was refusing to give up power.

Capturing/killing Grievous (after Dooku had been killed) left no reason for him to stay in power.

Old Post Nov 24th, 2021 10:48 AM
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Tzeentch
#gottem

Registered: Dec 2009
Location: Morgan's Maxim


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Underachiever59
Their attempted arrest, with no actual evidence of his crimes, was illegal
That's not how the law works. If the police come to my door and say that I'm under arrest for bullshit reasons I do not have the legal backing to blow them away with the sig saur i keep in my back pocket.


__________________

"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."

Old Post Nov 24th, 2021 05:10 PM
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Underachiever59
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2017
Location:


 

You guys are making the assumption that the Jedi are like real world police. The Jedi aren't. That's the Republic Judicial Forces. The Jedi have the authority to act on behalf of the Republic, with Senate approval. But they do not have the authority to act independent of Senate approval. That's kind of a big recurring plot point in both the Prequel Trilogy and The Clone Wars. The Jedi do not have the legal power to arrest the Chancellor of the Republic on hearsay and mere suspicion of being a Sith (which is not even illegal). Yes, they did discuss arresting him because Palpatine had refused to give up power, but the reason they hadn't already done so was because they simply didn't have that authority. Especially since Palpatine had extended his stay in office through perfectly legal means.

Remember the line, "The Senate will decide your fate," spoken by Mace? He said that because what the Jedi were doing was extra-judicial. The Jedi knew Palpatine had to be stopped, but they didn't actually have any authority at that moment to do so, and Palpatine called them on it.


The Revenge of the Sith novel goes into a lot of detail about the politics around Palpatine's rise to power. I strongly suggest reading it. Here are a couple highlights:

quote:
"Have you considered," Ki-Adi-Mundi said carefully, from far-away Mygeeto, "that if Palpatine refuses to surrender power, removing him is only a first step?"
Mace looked at the blue ghost of the Cerean Master. "I am not a politician. Removing a tyrant is enough for me."
"But it will not be enough for the Republic," Ki-Adi-Mundi countered sadly. "Palpatine's dictatorship has been legitimized—and can be legalized, even enshrined in a revised Constitution—by the supermajority he controls in the Senate."
The grim future inside Mace's head turned even darker. The Cerean was right.
"Filled with corruption, the Senate is," Yoda agreed from Kashyyyk. "Controlled, they must be, until replaced the corrupted Senators can be, with Senators honest and—"
"Do you hear us?" Mace lowered his head into his hands. "How have we come to this? Arresting a Chancellor. Taking over the Senate—! It's as though Dooku was right—to save the Republic, we'll have to destroy it . . ."


quote:
MACE WINDU: You're under arrest.

PALPATINE: Really, Master Windu, you cannot be serious. On what charge?

MACE WINDU: You're a Sith Lord!

PALPATINE: Am I? Even if true, that's hardly a crime. My philosophical outlook is a personal matter. In fact—the last time I read the Constitution, anyway—we have very strict laws against this type of persecution. So I ask you again: what is my alleged crime? How do you expect to justify your mutiny before the Senate? Or do you intend to arrest the Senate as well?

MACE WINDU: We're not here to argue with you.

PALPATINE: No, you're here to imprison me without trial. Without even the pretense of legality. So this is the plan, at last: The Jedi are taking over the Republic.

MACE WINDU: Come with us. Now.

PALPATINE: I shall do no such thing. If you intend to murder me, you can do so right here.

MACE WINDU: Don't try to resist.

[sounds that have been identified by frequency resonances to be the ignition of several lightsabers]

Old Post Nov 25th, 2021 08:01 AM
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Underachiever59
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2017
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Tzeentch
That's not how the law works. If the police come to my door and say that I'm under arrest for bullshit reasons I do not have the legal backing to blow them away with the sig saur i keep in my back pocket.


Also, this is a horrible, horrible analogy. Mainly because you're not the sitting president.

Joe schmoe cop with trumped up bullshit charges cannot arrest the sitting president. Or at least, wouldn't have legal authority to do so. Any attempt to do so by joe schmoe cop would be an act of treason. Just as the Jedi attempting to arrest Palpatine without Senate approval was, legally speaking, an act of treason. And as the Jedi were committing an act of treason, Palpatine was fully within his legal rights to defend himself through any means necessary against an attempt at unlawful detainment.

To make this analogy even worse, Mace Windu and the Jedi can't even be compared to cops. This would be like a member of the Catholic Church storming into the White House and declaring they were putting the sitting president under a citizen's arrest for practicing a different religion. It just doesn't work that way.

Last edited by Underachiever59 on Nov 25th, 2021 at 08:17 AM

Old Post Nov 25th, 2021 08:11 AM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Underachiever59
To make this analogy even worse, Mace Windu and the Jedi can't even be compared to cops. This would be like a member of the Catholic Church storming into the White House and declaring they were putting the sitting president under a citizen's arrest for practicing a different religion. It just doesn't work that way.



IF members of the Catholic Church were leading American armies into war at the behest of the government, then that would be an appropriate example.

Also the Jedi obviously were a legitimate police force working with the Republic even before the Clone Wars. After Clone Wars they were army generals as well.

They werent just random rogue cops or something.

Old Post Nov 25th, 2021 12:21 PM
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Tzeentch
#gottem

Registered: Dec 2009
Location: Morgan's Maxim


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Underachiever59
Also, this is a horrible, horrible analogy. Mainly because you're not the sitting president.

Joe schmoe cop with trumped up bullshit charges cannot arrest the sitting president. Or at least, wouldn't have legal authority to do so. Any attempt to do so by joe schmoe cop would be an act of treason. Just as the Jedi attempting to arrest Palpatine without Senate approval was, legally speaking, an act of treason. And as the Jedi were committing an act of treason, Palpatine was fully within his legal rights to defend himself through any means necessary against an attempt at unlawful detainment.

To make this analogy even worse, Mace Windu and the Jedi can't even be compared to cops. This would be like a member of the Catholic Church storming into the White House and declaring they were putting the sitting president under a citizen's arrest for practicing a different religion. It just doesn't work that way.
Jedi are not "jo schmo cops".


__________________

"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."

Old Post Nov 25th, 2021 05:15 PM
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Underachiever59
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2017
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Okay, the Jedi do not have a current real-world analogue. I threw out the example of the church because the Jedi are considered a religious order, just like the Sith. And the charge that Mace brought against Palpatine was being a Sith. In other words, Mace tried to arrest Palpatine for practicing a religion that the Jedi didn't allow, which was expressly against the Galactic Constitution. The point is, the Jedi expressly did not have the legal authority to arrest Palpatine.

And no, the Jedi were not a "legitimate police force" working for the Republic. That is quite literally the Judicial Force. That is the Republic's police force. They Jedi had the authority to act on behalf of the Republic on peacekeeping and negotiating missions, but only when they were specifically approved by the Senate.

Yes, during the Clone Wars, they also served as generals. But again, a general doesn't have the authority to just up and arrest the president with no evidence of a crime actually having been committed.

You're missing the forest for the trees here, folks. What Mace did in Revenge of the Sith was, legally speaking, treason. And he knew that at the time. He outright admits in the novelization that to save the Republic, the Jedi would need to destroy it. That's the brilliance of Palpatine's plan. He literally set up all of the Clone Wars to unmake the Jedi Order by forcing them to act in ways that were antithetical to the Order's entire purpose. He made the Jedi Order into the enemies of the Republic by thoroughly corrupting the very Republic that they were meant to serve.


No matter how you look at it, my original point still stands, and I've even posted quotes from the novelization that prove as much. If Mace had successfully killed Palpatine, the Jedi Order would have been left with no choice but to arrest all of Palpatine's supporters in the Senate as well (which is said to be a Supermajority, so well over 50%). To do so would effectively be the same as seizing control of the entire Senate, which is what Yoda, Ki-Adi-Mundi, and Mace Windu outright discuss doing in the novel.

If Mace had killed Palpatine, the Jedi Order would have gone even farther down the path of corruption that they'd already started on, getting inevitably mired in politics as they pick and choose which Senators are or are not allowed to retain their authority, turning the Galactic Republic into a theocratic dictatorship which the supermajority of worlds in the Republic would oppose.

Mace killing Palpatine was explicitly the wrong move to make, because there simply was no right move at this point. Palpatine had already won the second he was granted emergency powers in Attack of the Clones.

Old Post Nov 26th, 2021 01:21 AM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Underachiever59
And the charge that Mace brought against Palpatine was being a Sith. In other words, Mace tried to arrest Palpatine for practicing a religion that the Jedi didn't allow, which was expressly against the Galactic Constitution. The point is, the Jedi expressly did not have the legal authority to arrest Palpatine.




I don't think that was the charge. They were discussing forcibly removing him before they knew he was a Sith.

Igniting the lightsabers was likely because they found out he was a Sith though.

Old Post Nov 26th, 2021 02:00 PM
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Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Mars, 1985


 

I think the Jedi Council held the authority to forcibly remove 'corrupt' Chancellors from office. That's why they waited until the CIS had effectively been beaten before they confronted Palpatine... Because if he wasn't willing to relinquish his power after the war had been won, then the Jedi would have confirmation that he was indeed corrupt, and subsequently have cause to arrest him.

That said, the Jedi taking it on themselves to execute a Chancellor(right or wrong) without a proper trial is a different matter. That would not have gone over well.


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I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."

Last edited by Galan007 on Nov 26th, 2021 at 06:20 PM

Old Post Nov 26th, 2021 06:11 PM
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Underachiever59
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2017
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I don't think that was the charge. They were discussing forcibly removing him before they knew he was a Sith.

Igniting the lightsabers was likely because they found out he was a Sith though.


Need I remind you the direct quote from the novel is,

"On what charge?

MACE WINDU: You're a Sith Lord!"

They had no other legitimate, legal charges to level against him, because he technically had yet to break the law. Because he was altering the laws as he saw fit to ensure that he wasn't breaking the law.

If Mace had evidence that Palpatine was indeed the one responsible for starting the entire war, manipulating both sides, then sure, Mace removing him from office may have been legal. But at the time, the Jedi had no actionable evidence that Palpatine was corrupt. All they knew was he was a politician refusing to relinquish the power that had legally been given to him.

A good real world parallel would be Caesar. He came to power through perfectly legitimate means, and used those means to become a dictator. Yes, Palpatine was a corrupt dictator who was refusing to relinquish power. But he was still the legitimate, legal ruler of the Senate, and he had a supermajority of supporters. Remember, there were thunderous applause when he declared himself Emperor.

Was it morally correct for the Jedi to try and remove him from office? Obviously. But by the time they acted, it was already too late. The Senate had been so thoroughly corrupted that removing Palpatine from office would immediately make the Jedi the enemy of the majority of the Republic Senate.

Mace Windu never asked Palpatine to relinquish the emergency powers he was given. He never gave Palpatine an opportunity to prove he wasn't corrupt. He just immediately declared that Palpatine was under arrest in the movie, and in the novel he simply threatened Sheev to not resist.

Old Post Nov 27th, 2021 07:16 AM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

^ I'm aware the novel did that whole conversation during the arrest about debating whether him being a Sith is a crime.

But that's not in the film so not officially canon.

I think what Anakin says to Mace, about how Mace shouldn't kill Palpatine, and that he should stand trial would have been the most legal approach.

I think Filoni stated somewhere that Mace decided he's gonna have to kill him and take the fall for this, because Sidious was just too big a threat to the Jedi and the Galaxy.

Old Post Nov 27th, 2021 11:47 AM
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Underachiever59
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2017
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Legally speaking, if Palpatine did stand trial, he would be found innocent. After all, "He has control of the Senate and the courts!"

I absolutely agree that Sidious was simply too big of a threat to both the Jedi and the Galaxy, and Mace was fully aware that it was necessary to kill Palpatine to avoid, well... Basically everything that we know happened after Revenge of the Sith.

All I'm getting at here is that the alternative to what we saw in the movies still isn't a happy ending. Mace killing Sidious would prevent the rise of the Empire, Order 66, ect. But it would inevitably lead to the Jedi having to seize control of the Senate to weed out corruption. And with how split the Galaxy already was, and how many supporters Palpatine had, a Galaxy-wide civil war would be unavoidable.

Old Post Nov 30th, 2021 12:01 AM
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