I'm giving Saitama's feats to Saitama, and Bang's feats to Bang. Bang avoiding a hit from Saitama is a feat that can be attributed to Bang. Whether it's due to superspeed alone or a combination of superspeed and reading of the opponents intentions, it nevertheless demonstrates Bang's ability to avoid superspeed attacks.
By your criteria, the only admissible feats when assessing an X vs. Y fight would be from the other instances of that same X vs. Y fight? That's hardly how any argument on these forums works; ppl almost always use feats from some X vs. Z fight to imply what might happen in the X vs. Y fight in question. The thing is, Marvel and DC comics are highly inconsistent -- which is why we cannot cherry-pick just the low feats or high feats as suits our purpose but must be impartial. Flash, for example, certainly has the high feats to largely compensate for an occasional low feat, so we can conclude that on the average he wouldn't get hit by Batman or Deathstroke. Bang doesn't really have low feats; he has been extremely consistent with his demonstrations of superspeed and reading of enemy attacks (including superspeed attacks), and the ability to avoid or block them. So that's the power level where he should objectively be placed at.
My point being that Saitama has low feats (the aforementioned mosquito); who's to say Bang avoiding him isn't another low feat for Saitama?
You then try all manner of mental gymnastics (maybe the mosquito is lightspeed! the attacks magically missed!), whilst saying you are 'impartial', when the simplest explanation is, it was a low showing for Saitama, used for comedic purposes. Certainly not out of the realms of possibility, given the comedic nature of OPM (DS said, sarcastically).
So with that said, this is all we have for where Bang stands in relation to Saitama - another occurrence which is comedic, and could well be another low showing for Saitama. Hence, me saying that you are scaling off the power level of Saitama (some might call that 'power scaling').
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Last edited by DarkSaint85 on Jul 4th, 2022 at 08:13 AM
As I said, we can clearly observe Saitama moving faster than the eye can see against the mosquito. And his attacks shook the building and the neighborhood. Heat and smoke were emitted from his hands when he punched them together. He was very clearly operating at FAAAAR beyond normal human levels there, demonstrating massive superspeed and -strength (and -durability). I didn't say that the mosquito *necessarily* had superspeed/durability even though that is certainly one possibility; the other option is, as I said, that Saitama's attacks (including the air pressure) somehow magically missed the mosquito. I'm fine either way. But to look at the Saitama vs. mosquito scene and to insist that Saitama wasn't massively superfast and superstrong there, now that's just dishonest. Of course, being unlimited as he is, he did hold back -- he didn't want to destroy his home and everything around it. The result is that he chose to operate only at the barely-faster-than-the-eye-can-see and shake-the-building power level, as was shown to us.
He assumed quite similar power level vs. Bang as well. The hit was fast and powerful enough to cause severe damage to Bang's dojo but it was nowhere near Saitama's max level.
The Wolverine scan you posted is a good example of the subjective cherry-picking I mentioned earlier. If we want to assess character powers objectively we must look at the highs and the lows. For example, Wolverine also got roflstomped by a deer and didn't demonstrate any superspeed or -reflexes there.
Perhaps the deer was magically hitting Logan, like that mosquito was magically avoiding Saitama.
Or maybe Bang was magically being missed by Saitama, just as Saitama was magically missing the mosquito. Not necessarily a speed feat for Bang, as it was actually Saitama magically missing him. I'm ok with that
We indeed don't know anything about that particular deer. Luckily we don't need such guesswork when it comes to Bang's feat: We can clearly see the impact of Saitama's toy hammer hit. We can clearly see Bang moving at superhuman speed (faster than the normal eye can follow). We can also see Bang demonstrating high levels of strength by jumping up and striking his fingers through the ceiling in order to keep away from Saitama. Saitama, by his own admission, was attempting to hit Bang and was angry that Bang avoided it.
So all that we have, from your proof in that scene, is that Bang moves faster than the normal human eye can follow.
Which many street levellers in comics can do. Hell, bullets/arrows move faster than the normal eye can follow.
Attempting to imply that Saitama was anywhere near lightspeed (note, I am NOT saying that you explicitly said this, merely that you implied it by mentioning the feat of him being faster than his reflection) is disingenuous. Him being angry doesn't mean that he was at anywhere close to using his full power, any more so that Magik avoiding an angry Mjolnir toss means that she is faster than Mjolnir's best feats, or Spot is MFTL.
In short....Bang has no real feats to suggest he is able to contend with low-level speedsters, any more than this, which I feel was ignored:
Edit: also, no, we do not have to look at the highs and the lows. Forum rules aren't like that, certainly not for comics. Even though Flash doesn't clock all of his opponents at speed at the ring of the bell, it is a valid tactic as it is proven that he has speed on that level. Full Capacity rule. My quibble here, is that you are taking *a* comedic scene between Bang and Saitama (where they aren't even fighting), and implying he was at X% of his FTL speed, where this X is high enough for whatever purposes you want to twist it to.
Whereas I am saying, it is not really evidence, at all, it being a low showing. The problem then becomes, Bang has no other real feats besides this.
I can certainly spam this thread with Logan scans showing him faster than normal human eyes. That was just the first scan I remembered.
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Last edited by DarkSaint85 on Jul 4th, 2022 at 10:42 AM
He's around the same as in the manga. Super-skilled martial artist, with a lot of scaling going on in this thread in an attempt to give him some feats to enable him to have a chance and contend against comic characters.
Street levellers cannot consistently move faster than the eye can follow. Only occasionally, due to inconsistency of Marvel/DC writing. Rest of the time, they get hit by a deer.
As you admitted, I'm not arguing that Bang or Flashy Flash are lightspeeders+. That's Carver's argument, not mine. But they *have* genuine superspeed and -reactions unlike the Marvel/DC street levellers who demonstrate superspeed only occasionally and inconsistently.
Oh, he does. For example, his fight(s) against Garou.
No, we cannot just take some isolated feat of our choosing from Marvel/DC comics and establish the power level of a character based on that. This is because the writing is inconsistent. We absolutely need to look at a larger sample size. In Flash's case, there's sufficient evidence to conclude that, on average, he can "clock all of his opponents at speed at the ring of the bell". But full capacity rule does NOT mean "only consider the high feats and ignore the lows".
The Bang vs. Saitama scene is evidence for the former's superspeed. This is very obvious from that scene. Combining that with the other evidence from the OPM manga and anime quite clearly shows that the old man does, indeed, possess superspeed.
As for Logan. He is obviously faster than normal human, there's enough evidence for that. But his showings are less consistent. There are lots of events where he has not been able to demonstrate any notable superspeed abilities. Thus, he's not an actual speedster, just someone with a somewhat enhanced speed.
Well, I don't think there's any official ruling for that. If he demonstrates superspeed on, lets say, 75% of his fights and very rarely if ever gets tagged by normal-speed opponents, then I'd tend to agree that he's a "speedster".
Bang satisfies these criteria. Almost always when he fights he demonstrates superspeed. He did that with Melzargard, he did that with Garou, he did that with dragon-level monster association monsters, he did that with several lesser monster association monsters. Furthermore, he never got tagged by hits from random low-level monsters. Unlike Logan, who regularly gets seriously wounded by random thugs and street levellers.
As to how fast, it's hard to say. Considerably faster than bullet-time, that's for sure. Garou very early in his development was able to deflect bullets from a gatling gun and Bang, in turn, was able to keep up with him even after Garou had evolved much further. Darkshine said that Bang beat him up effortlessly, despite Darkshine's ridiculous durability and strength. That's a pretty clear indication of what would happen if some slow-poke MU brick such as the Thing or Colossus tried to fight Bang.
Cool. So we can't say how fast he is, just that he's faster than bullets from a Minigun.
A Minigun has a muzzle velocity of 853 m/s. That's assuming Garou was standing right in front of it, of course, or no air resistance.
So that's....Mach 2.5. Garou improved a lot, so...ten times? Mach 25?100 times? Assuming no air resistance of course, in which case we'd have to drop that number, but I don't want to be accused of lowballing.
Minigun fires at a rapid rate. Blocking all of that is much more impressive than blocking just a single bullet.
Jay's powers have fluctuated quite a bit over the years but most incarnations of him would likely beat Bang, yes. Due to Bang's martial arts mastery and ability to read his opponents, a speedster just slightly faster than him still wouldn't be able to beat him. But Jay's probably too much.
Well if you want to bring additional considerations in, impartially, you should be bringing air resistance in, the fact his hands can deflect multiple bullets at once, etc.
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