Luke fully intended to kill Palpatine in that moment, which was the catalyst Palpatine wanted to see. From Luke's POV, killing the Emperor = the end of the Empire... But from Palpatine's POV, the act just meant that Luke was ready to be fully overtaken by the dark side.
In Legends, Vader likely protected Palpatine because he was just a subservient lapdog. Palpatine had complete faith in Vader's obedience and never really intended to die then and there. IOW, he knew Vader would protect him, but still wanted to see the depth's of Luke's anger/rage.
In canon, you could argue that Vader "protected" Palpatine, because he knew that if Luke struck him down, Palpatine might just essence-transfer himself into Luke's body -- this was ambiguously alluded to in the ROS novel.
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"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Jan 29th, 2024 at 08:03 PM
^ Yes! That moment is super important. Without delving into secondary material, it seemed obvious to me that Palpatine was just goading Luke into killing him. But such a deathblow wasn't what would have ultimately turned Luke to the Dark Side. No, it was the inevitable clash with, and murder of, his own father that would have truly completed Luke's journey to the Dark Side. Again, acknowledging my own ignorance of secondary material, I think the movie portrayed Vader as having way more agency than that. Vader developed ulterior plans against Palpatine that involved bringing his own son towards the Dark Side because he thought that him and Luke together diving into that side of the Force would be powerful enough to challenge Palpatine.
Think back to that moment in Luke/Vader's duel when Luke's feelings become unguarded and Vader realizes Leia is also a Skywalker. Vader goes for it and brings out Luke's unmitigated rage at 3:30:
Palpatine wanted Luke to descend towards the Dark Side to replace Vader as his apprentice. Vader wanted Luke to descend towards the Dark Side to join him and overthrow the Emperor. He said as much during his first duel in Empire Strikes Back. No reason to think Vader was lying. *groan*
Sounds about as unnecessary a "retcon" as the entirety of the Solo film.
My opinion of it is that Vader is in two minds. One, he has to protect the Emperor, being his master, and the other, he has to protect Luke from making the same mistakes he did.
Vader is conflicted going in to the fight, so to me it makes sense.
It's difficult for me to have this kind of discussion without mentioning secondary material, because it's all under the same umbrella canon -- the comics/novels, for example, are just as canon as the films.
That said, during ESB, Vader initially did want Luke to join him in hopes of overthrowing Palpatine... But Vader had a change of heart afterwards. Not only did he witness the true depths of Palpatine's power(and therefore knew that standing against him was pointless), but he also saw Luke's potential, and began viewing him as a threat/rival. He actually wanted Luke dead(this was even corroborated in one of the novels that was set during their RotJ encounter.)
Where Palpatine is concerned, he was just goading Luke into using his "aggressive feelings", thereby pushing him towards the dark side and becoming the new apprentice.
The first instance was seeing if Luke would actually try to strike him down in a fit of rage(which Luke did), but again: Palpatine never actually intended to die in that moment. He had complete faith in Vader's obedience... Heck, Vader made his obedience to Palpatine abundantly clear during the film itself, while he was speaking to Luke: "You don't know the power of the dark side... I MUST OBEY my Master."
The second instance was goading Luke into killing Vader(ie. his own father)... Which Luke very nearly did, until his final "breakthrough moment."
But when Palpatine realized that Luke could not be corrupted, he decided to kill him... And it was only then that Vader finally had his own breakthrough moment -- properly turning against his Master, in order to save his son.
I wish that were the worst of it.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
While Yoda was in office, the CIS came to power under the leadership of Count Dooku(Yoda's former padawan), which caused the deaths of numerous Jedi and countless Republic citizens... But worse yet, Yoda also allowed the formation of the Empire under the leadership of Palpatine/Vader, who eradicated 99.9% of the Jedi population and enslaved the entire galaxy.
He is one of the worst midgets.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Can't argue with the secondary material. But, bleh.
But had Palpatine goaded Luke into the Dark Side, what would've happened to Darth Vader? The whole Sith "Rule of Two" thing which, even I as a casual fan know about.
I guess what I'm asking is whether we all agree that Luke daring to strike Palpatine down was only an initial step towards the Dark Side. It never would've happened (in Palpatine's mind anyway whether Darth Vader was utterly his thrall or otherwise). It was Luke killing Darth Vader that would have sealed Luke's fate as Palpatine's apprentice.
I assumed Vader would have been replaced. Or even join Luke and Palestine - was the Rule of Two around during RotJ?
I think at the time, Vader was just a cyborg slave to Palpatine - only later did we learn more about him as Anakin etc. So can well believe he would/could have just allowed himself to be sacrificed for the good of the Sith.
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Jan 29th, 2024 07:58 PM
Thanks for the explanation 
