not really a superhero, but could batman beat the purple man?
__________________ Land of the free, home of the brave...
Do you think we will ever be saved?
In this land of dreams find myself sober...
Wonder when will it'll all be over...
Living in a void when the void grows colder...
Wonder when it'll all be over?
Will you be laughing when it's over?
take off all the super powers of ALL the super heroes and then compare them with the already ORDINARY batman.then see who wins?that is that and that is enough to convince me atleast!
All the superheros are wat they are becaus eof their SUPER powers,that's why they are no match to Batmn when it come to a MAN to MAN fight in any sense of the word.
Last edited by Punkyhermy on Mar 19th, 2004 at 07:04 PM
there are plenty of martial artists with hand to hand skills that can easily best batman, again, elektra, daredevil, stick, stone, Iron Fist, PowerMan, black panther, white tiger (RIP), etc.
__________________ Land of the free, home of the brave...
Do you think we will ever be saved?
In this land of dreams find myself sober...
Wonder when will it'll all be over...
Living in a void when the void grows colder...
Wonder when it'll all be over?
Will you be laughing when it's over?
Few people here use logic arguments when discussing Batmans possibilities to beat his ennemies. I really don't agree with the "Batman can outthink everybody"-factor. He isn't some kind of analyzing computer, who instantly notices weaknesses and strengths of his ennemies. He needs time to prepare himself. But not every villain will be happy to wait a few weeks while Batman makes a detailled file about the villain and then develops some special weapon.
So in a random encounter, there are lots of people he would lose from: the Hulk, the Thing, Spider-man, Colossus, Wolverine, Thor, Silver Surfer and so on. None of these heros have important weaknesses, and the few weaknesses they do have wouldn't bother them much. Tell me, what is Batman going to do when he doesn't know who they are? What is he going to throw against the Silver Surfer? Or against Juggernaut? He just can run and pray...
A classic mistake made here on the forum is the misconception that Batman is the only hero who is really smart and who is always well-prepared. If he prepares himself let's say against Wolverine, than it's obvious Batman knows him. But Wolverine will also know Batman, and will also know his strengths and weaknesses. So both fighters are well prepared. And don't forget, a fight is not a chessgame. Chessgames have very strict rules, and in lots of occasions, you have an idea of what your opponent is trying to do. In a (real) fight, just about anything can happen.
Batman can be beaten in every way, just like anybody, because nobody is invincible. Plain and simple. Learn to live with it, and don't give him godlike powers like almost supernatural intelligence which he just doesn't have. Granted, he's incredibly smart (definitely one of the smartes of both the DC-world and the Marvel Universe), but don't overdo it. His plans don't always work.
And punkyhermy, sorry, but your statement about "take away all the superheros powers and let them fight Batman, and we"ll see who wins" isn't very convincing. Take away the money from the Bats (money which allowed him to go to very expensive schools and learn all his impressive fighting skills from the elite and the best, money which also allowed him to make his weapons, cars and suits) and we'll see what remains of Batman. Not very much I'm afraid.
__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
Length of time it takes Batman to figure out how to beat Polaris after Polaris took out the entire JLA? Less than a minute.
There's a reason why when people say that Batman can beat anyone, they often add that that's if his enemy has a weakness. You seem to have figured it out; congratulations.
Faced with an enemy he could not defeat? He'd run away, of course. You seem to think you're scoring some kind of point here, but the fact is, most Batman fans know perfectly well that he has to take time to devise a stratagy. I don't know why you're telling us this, to be honest.
Batman is far smartter than most heroes.
Unless you can show that Wolverine has an information network equal to Oracles's, this is not valid; Batman will know Wolverine far better than Wolverine will know Batman.
What weaknesses are you thinking of, exactly. He doesn't have many.
Do you know what a "straw man" is. I haven's seen too many people claiming that fights are lick chess games, so why are you bringing this up.
I'm not sure what you mean by "in every way." If you plan to outfight him, you'd better be one of the world's best fighters. If you plan to trick him somehow, you'd better be a genius.
Obviously, Batman is not invincible. Nobody here said he was (aren't you the person I accused of misrepresenting Batman fans in the Spiderman thread? Well I'm accusing you again).
They almost always work.
The difference being, of course, that anyone can make money. How many people can give themselves superpowers. punkyhermy isn't very convincing on this point, but neither are you.
__________________ "Men curse the Communist Party, but eventually it may release them. If hell were endless, then God would be worse than our Secret Police."--Pastor Valentin
I'm not sure if this is relevant or not but the thing concerning the money,the point which "who-kid?" made,but i think that money was a bonus as far as bruce becomming batman is concerned.money isn't wat makes him a super hero.his determination is.the fact that he stops a robbery makes him a super hero,not the fact that he's wearing an expensive batsuit.sure without his suit,he'd have to work at least about 10 times extra hard,but knowing dear batsy,that's no prob!infact,i think that having money as backup made it way easier for him to follow his dream.if he were poor he would still have tried his very best to stop crime.even if he would then,in that case wouldn't have expensive batsuites.money is not his substitude for "superpowers".his "superpower"would be as he himself states in the episeode "only a dream"of JLA "i do have one,johnny,i never give up"well then you'd have to say take away his "determination"but you can always develop one even if in some way you take his "away"And if u wanna take his determination away than u have to have some sort of power to change his past,which is not possible.
Last edited by Punkyhermy on Mar 21st, 2004 at 12:10 AM
Answer to punkyhermy: I never said that his money was some kind of replacement for superpowers. I know his personality is awesome and that he is very strongwilled. Like I said somewhere before, I really like Batman. He is cool and impressive.
I just believe that without his money, he would never have been taught from the best of the best, and so he would never have become the best - because these days, he truly is the best, in DC. His fighting skills, his tracking skills, his science knowledge and so on: he learned all of those at expensive schools or from teachers/senseis/whatever who just are the best. Without this long and very expensive training, he wouldn't be half the hero he is nowadays. He would also be impressive, but would be much easier to beat.
This money-thing is certainly not an insult, because every hero has his way to become a superhero. Some do it with a magical hammer, others with gamma-radiation. Batman did it with money and, not to forget, with a lust for vengeance. So no offence punkyhermy :-)
__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
i must say i agree about the point you made that bats wouldn't be the best without his money,well to some extend atleast.
no offense taken,as a fan girl i was just trying to support dear batsy!
Answer to punkyhermy: Okay, I can live with that :-) It's always nice to discuss something with somebody who doesn't start insulting you because you see it another way. I appreciate people defending their idols - I do the same thing.
See you...
__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
Answer to gregory: it's just my opinion, and you seem to spend a lot of time to disagree with it and to prove me wrong. However, your replies aren't well funded so I could easily leave it to that, but it's sunday and it's raining, so I will give it one more try.
You like to quote me (good trick: quoting a genius ļ), so I will do the same with you:
1. ¡§Batman is far smarter than most heroes.¡¨
Well, he is definitely smarter than you (and probably me). That¡¦s a fact. Where have I said that he isn¡¦t smart? Or isn¡¦t smart enough? I just made the statement that there are enough superheros who are also very smart.
2. ¡§Unless you can show that Wolverine has an information network equal to Oracles's, this is not valid; Batman will know Wolverine far better than Wolverine will know Batman.¡¨
Knowing an opponent is one thing, beating him is a whole other story ! Try it sometime in real life, and you¡¨ll see what I mean.
3. ¡§What weaknesses are you thinking of, exactly. He doesn't have many.¡¨
Pff, just say you killed his parents. That would probably do it.
4. ¡§Do you know what a "straw man" is. I haven's seen too many people claiming that fights are lick chess games, so why are you bringing this up.¡¨
The comparisation with a chess-game was obviously a metaphor (look it up at the dictionary). It¡¦s really simple: planning a fight doesn¡¦t mean the fight will go the way you want it, because you can¡¦t compare it to, for instance, a chess-game, where everything has strict rules. During a fight, lots of variables can occur which can totally screw up your planning.
5. ¡§I'm not sure what you mean by "in every way." If you plan to outfight him, you'd better be one of the world's best fighters. If you plan to trick him somehow, you'd better be a genius.¡¨
When I say that Batman could be beaten in every way, I meant physically and mentally, just like any other superhero or villain can be beaten. I really thought this was not too difficult.
6. ¡§Obviously, Batman is not invincible. Nobody here said he was (aren't you the person= I accused of misrepresenting Batman fans in the Spiderman thread? Well I'm accusing you again).¡¨=
Hey we agree, Batman isn¡¦t invincible, though lots and lots of people think he really is. That¡¦s the whole idea of this thread, dude : ¡§Can Batman be beaten?¡¨ Well yeah of course he can. By the way, I don¡¦t remember if you accused me of something, but if you really must, be my guest.
Conclusion: Batman is cool, Batman rocks. We all know that. But he can be beaten, and by lots of heroes/villains. Just like any other hero. That¡¦s what makes comics exciting, fun to read and unpredictable.
__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
Oops, looks like I screwed up Sry people for the strange characters in my previous message.
Batman, save me !!!
__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
I'm sorry you feel that way; it's Sunday and I'm looking for an excuse to put off doing my statistics homework, so I'll reply back.
Definitely smarter than me, and probably smarter than you. Very interesting way of putting it. I just made a statement, too: that Batman was smarter than most other heroes. Where did I say there aren't other heroes who are smarter than him? I didn't.
[/QUOTE]Knowing an opponent is one thing, beating him is a whole other story ! Try it sometime in real life, and you¡¨ll see what I mean.[/QUOTE]
The thing is that in real life, people don't have unique, exploitable weaknesses. In comics, they do.
And me try to beat someone up? Heaven forbid.
That works if the hero in question was able to figure out Batman's secret identity.
Or rather, it might work. Shortly after Jason dies, Batman takes out a sniper while suffering from flashbacks, and in Batman and the Outsiders he takes out a gang leader while in the middle of an even more full-blown flashback (he though the gang leader was Joe Chill).
I know what a metaphore is. I also know that's it's possible to disagree with people without being rude or condescending.
What was it Batman says in No-Man's Land? Five different plans with five other contagiancy plans? Batman does not rely on all his plans working; but he has lots of plans.
Granted
I'm sure we agree on many things. You don't have to prove to me that Batman is invulnerable; he's been captured by Wonder Woman, knocked out by the Martian Manhunter (both times in Batman's defence), broken by Bane, killed (along with the rest of the JLA), and generally roughed up many times. I'm not arguing that, and I mentioned earlier in this very thread that there are heroes who can take down Batman (I mentioned Spawn). This thread was misguided. That's not what I'm disagreeing with you about; I'm disagreeing with some specific parts of your argument.
See? I knew we'd agree on a variety of points
__________________ "Men curse the Communist Party, but eventually it may release them. If hell were endless, then God would be worse than our Secret Police."--Pastor Valentin
Hehehe, indeed we do, Gregory Sorry if I sounded a bit arrogant sometimes, but it bothers me when people can't think straight just because their idol or hero is the coolest (in their opinion) and thus never can lose again. From nobody.
I'm more a Spider-man fan myself (he is much more impressive to look at when he is in action and has also a great amount of tragedy behind him. And sometimes he can be funny) but I read my fair amount of Batman comics too (I wouldn't have read them if they sucked, or if Batman sucked. Return of the Dark Knight by Frank Miller is fantastic !! Or the Killing Joke by Alan Moore !!! Or Batman Year One, also by Frank Miller. All classics)
But I can live with a defeat of Spidey, even when I like him more than I like Batman, because even Spider-man can't win all of his battles. It's what makes him human.
Some people can't live with the fact that Batman actually could lose, because he just is too cool and way too smart. Granted, he is all that, but sometimes, that's just not enough. Being cool never has won a fight - believe me, I know :-)
So, this whole "Can the Dark Knight be beaten?" thread is a big, big mistake, because it gives the (false) impression Batman is invincible and it sets people against each other. So, no hard feelings, Gregory.
Hey, it stopped raining...
__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
By the way, don't hurt me if I misspelled a thing or two, or three or four. English isn't my mother tongue.
__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
I highly doubt that Batman would ever manage to beat Magneto, even with time to prepare. I mean, what can bats bring to damage Magneto? Nothing. maybe some plastic knuckle dusters.
I must say you two, you really like going at it. I can see similar points that are up for dispute, try these. Think hard i dont have enough time.
While batman does often analyse people well, sometimes he does make mistakes, he is only human after all, and he can lose. But he always has the will to turn back and beat him after analysing and recouperating. Batman does not always rely on his gadgets, taking out magneto could present a problem but would not, batman could use non magnetic elements to win and it would be a great smart to smart match.
lastly i find it hard to think that we are opposing superhero agaisnt superhero, they will not do that.
KMC Community Forums
Mar 13th, 2004 06:01 AM
Sry people for the strange characters in my previous message.
