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As I mentioned before on the previous SW board My favorite character is Master Qui-Gon Jinn. I hope his ghost will be seen in Episode 2.

I love the man too but we're almost certain that it's not going to happen.

Aside from the practicality of it (Liam Neeson has not, to anyone's knowledge, been shooting scenes), the aft is (and will this start an argument with queeq again...) the ghost trick is not something that Qui-Gon can do. He did not disappear into the Force in Ep I and so won't be back.

Remember, the ghost trick is not a general Jedi ability. It is a specific plot point for Ben and Yoda.

There have been recent rumours that Liam Neeson was at Ealing Studios for a couple of days over the last few weeks when pick up shots were being done.

How true they are I don't know, but that would certainly have been ample time to get a few minutes of footage for Ghost scenes.

I don't really think he will be back, as they burnt his body in Ep1. All the spirits in the OT that returned had vanished on their death.

He could although be back in a flashback scene. Maybe when Count Dooku is rumored to tell Obi-Wan about him being Qui-Gons former master...

Flashback scenes would be unprecedented in Star Wars... recordings on the other hand...

Hmmmm, 10 years after the death of his master Obi Wan finds a hiolodron from Qui Gon.

Different, but not entirely unplausible.

When we were debating the possibility of Shmi scenes in Episode III that she had apparently already shot (where did I Got My Beat go, BTW?), I advancd the possibility of a recording when others said flashback. I even think that idea is credible.

OH, I agree, highly plausible idea. One that I don't think has really been explored anough by anyone to be honest.

I just think that Qui-Gon will return because if he doesn't then what would have been the purpose of his character? Why not just have Obi-Wan be an official Jedi in EP I and have him do everything. We may not see him in EP II but we should in EP III.

Woo-hoo! More Council approval... I may just stay after all...

So... any confirmation on that Liam Neeson rumour?

There's no way we're going to get any real comfirmation on that.. at this point it seems like it's one of the few little "what if"s that LFL has to keep us on our toes...I'd bet they're trying very hard not to let this one out of the bag.

touching on what raz and ushgarak said, i do not believe that not disappearing into the force necessarily dictates whether or not a fallen jedi will posess the ability to appear in the physical world. as a point of reference, in return of the jedi, shortly after anakin is burned by luke, anakin appears before him along side yoda and obi-wan. this was done without anakin disappearing.

Actually, Anakin did disappear, Luke was burning the Vader suit.

Oh, there we go again. THere is NO canonical evidence that Luke just burned the suit. No matter what McCallum says. NO evidence whatsoever. If Lucas wanted to make clear he disappeared he would have shown it. He did so before TWICE. Would he not do so with the second most important character next to Luke.

As for QGJ, these additional shoots in London are the perfect opportunity to film Neeson. GL did say that the disappearing of Jedi would be explained in the upcoming movies, so I keep my fingers crossed and hope for Neeson's return.

I have this vague memory of seening a scene where Anakin vanished but it could be my imagination...

This debate again... whopee!

No, we don't know for ABSOLUTLY CERTAIN that Anakin disappeared.... but it is by far the most logical way, and RM is PROBABLY talking factually when he said it was so.

IF the disappearing AND the Ghost Trick are seperated, then they BOTH have to be mysterious and unknown things that Yoda and Obi-Wan discover in Episodes II and III (remember that NEITHER event is common for a Jedi, or even heard of). It makes far more sense for the two to be linked! Hence the three we see in the Force anre the same three who disappear And I rather think that is how we will see it.

Except a ghost appearance by Qui-Gon would mess it up. So I still go for recording! I would find it amazing that Qui-Gon would return as a ghost and that Anakin didn't klnow about it (which he can't), but I suppose it;s not totally impossible.

I still think I'm right on this one.

By the way- I don't have them to hand right now, so can anyone tell us what the novel and/or radio play have to say about this? Because they ARE semi-canonical...

I never liked the idea that the disappearing was a 'trick', I thought of it more as the Force itself making a decision to allow a Jedi to become one with it.

May well be. 'Trick' is just used as a generic term. But remember it is not normal- in fact, it appears Obi-Wan was the first ever to do it, unless someone beats him to it in the Prequels and no-one else hears.

I think Vader's geekish standing on Ben's cloak to check he wasn't hiding underneath suggests that was the first time it happened. Since he'll be doing a lot of the Jedi killing (bet you a tenner he kills Mace (we didn't shake on it)), I don't think many major Jedi will vanish like that.

Indeed. As I say, I think NONE of them do it. Obi-Wan is probably the first, and this is directly linked to the ghost form, and hence Anakin had to do it as well.

How Anakin did it is unknown, though I think the MCs have an input in it all.

Ah, Midichlorians. My least favourite thing in the world. I read a review which slated TPM, but their likening the Midichlorians to "performing an autopsy on Santa Claus" was perfect. It worked for the purposes of showing how strong Anakin was with the Force, but giving it a numerical value seemed daft to me. I'd like to post a new topic about the subject to get everyone's opinion, but I'm new to the boards and I don't know whether it's been covered already.

Well... people HAVE vented their hatred at the MCs before. I have defended them. Start up a new thread and we can roll it out again-but I assure you, they are not as bad as you may think...

You're on!

Oops, what did I just do there...?

Anakin Skywalker dissappearing after he died is EU. It was NOT shown in the movie.

Told you I did, reckless is Ush. Now, matters are worse.

OK, a ghost appearance will definately blow yout theory out of the water, I'm opting for that. I agree that OB1 disappearance was a surprise to Vader, he had never seen this before. I believe it has to do with a certain 'growth' in the Force. A certain maturity that OB1 and Yoda found out about. Vader had no way of learning about that, he was always a Sith until the last minutes before he died.

Cinematograhically, I think Vader disapearing is extremey weak. If this was GL's plan he should have shown him disappearing. A major error, IMHO OC. But when Qui-Gon appears we will all learn that the burning is a kind of purge, to cleanse a incomplete Jedi from his shortcomings/faults. Fits in with mythological and religious motifs.

Oh what, Qui-Gon has to be burnt but not Obi-Wan? VERY unfair.

An appearance by Qui-Gon would ALMOST certainly destroy my theory... it could be rigged to work out (like if he says something to the efefct that from NOW ON, you will have to disappear at death to achieve this...)

Clutch clutch...

Look, mey theory WORKS far better than any other- it is far simpler and makes the most sense. The only objection you can come up with is 'Why didn't Vader disappear', and is it happens most people (AND RM) think he DID. Every other theory has some whacking great hole in it.

IF Qui-Gon comes back as a ghost, how come HE does it, and no-one else ever in history before him, eh?

Qui Gon didn't come back or disappear because he had done nothing to bring the balance of the Force back to the light side. He brought Anakin into the equation, which directly, was a bad move. Both Yoda and Obi Wan played a huge part in Luke's upbringing and training, hence bringing the balance back to the light side and they were allowed to retain their identities after death. The Vader thing fits too, he killed the Emperor and so despite his failure as a Jedi, he ended Palpatine's rule and brought the balance back to the light side. Laugh if you want, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But if you find I'm right come 2002, you will bow to me. Oh yes, much bowing will be done.

I'm not entirely sure whose side you are on there...

You are right most of the way, except... Qui-Gon's move was NOT a bad thing! Without Qui-Gon, Anakin would never have been there and the Emperor would not have been defeated. Qui-Gon laid the first step in saving the Galaxy; had he lived, it would have gone far better. Dying was his only error.

Obi-Wan, whose unfortunate errors cockec up QG's plan, is FAR more guilty.

I dunno, Obi Wan's cautious approach to Anakin, whilst leading to failure, may have been better than Qui Gon's. Perhaps under Qui Gon's watchful eye, Vader would have been entirely heartless, and the twins may not even have existed. Who knows? This is the sort of debate which would be better conducted after episode 2, after we have a better idea of the effects of Obi Wan's training on Anakin. I feel that GL will probably blow all of our theories out of the water...

Mayhaps. But I think the basic idea of Onbi-Wan's plot is that he couldn't live up to the legacy of his trainers. The strong implication is that Qui-Gon would have got it right.

i am really enjoying this topic, so allow me to add a comment for a second time. i was at first inclined to believe that disappearing was the manner in which a jedi passes away from natural causes, like yoda. however then, the obvious OB1 problem arose. so i propose this: both jedi disappeared after intending to live out there lives in relative solitude (degobah, and jundland wastes). so maybe there's more of a connection between the time of the disappearance in relation to where the particular jedi is in his relationship with the force. like a buddhist monk reaching enlightenment, so they are no longer re-encarnated(eventhough the force was certainly not finished with either). so this would address vader's confusion when OB1 disappears. he had never seen a jedi die after that point. especially the ones he murders. sorrysolong

I agree Jeffrey. I think the desolation and meditation contributed big time to becomeing one with the Force or something.

But USh, let's set a few things straight here. If Qui-Gon DOES appear as a ghost, we don NOT know that'll be the first time in the history of the universe. That's an assumption based on nothing. So far all we know is this: some Jedi disappear upon death and some are burned after death. Qui-Gon did not disappear and was burned. OB1 disappeared much to Vader's surprise (whom we can safely assume killed numerous Jedi). Yoda disappeared upon death. Anakin, we do not know, yet he was burned, his armour at least. After burning Anakin appeared as a ghost, AFTER OB1 and Yoda were visible, as if he just arrived.
And that's ALL we know Ush, ALL. When Qui-Gon appears as a ghost, the fire as a cleansing purge is definate.

If it turns out to be true that Anakin disappeared, I will concede. But I will also state and defend that I think this scene is then a major cinematographical error.

It's not a major error at all, and I thought it was pretty obvious.

Here is what we know:

Anakin is never taught at any point that Jedi can disappear after death. he does not know it can happen Therefore, JEDI are not taught this. This is because it NEVER HAPPENS!

If it has happened before, it is in the depths of unrecorded history.

We know that RM has said that Anakin disappeared after death.

We know that GL has said that Jedi do not normally disappear after death, and we will find out why the three in the OT do in Episodes II and III.

We know that Anakin does NOT know about the Ghost form. We know that, therefore, this is also something else that will be discovered in Episodes II and III. I reckon it is obvious to assume that ther two are linked- those that disappear, come back as a ghost. MAYBE only visible to Luke; we don't know yet.

If they are not linked it is ludicrous- BOTH mystical things are discovered in the next two films? Unlikely.

How much more bloody obvious do you want it? The implications are crystal clear.

We do NOT know Anakin doesn't know about the ghost form. That is something that we may find out in the next two episodes. Maybe he does know, except for how to become one after death.

Anakin clealry does now know about the Ghost form- early ROTJ scripts make this very clear. More to the point, his line 'Obi-Wan cannot help him now' is very clear. He has no idea of life after death.

So more EU sources eh? Not very convincing.

And OB1 CAN'T help Luke. He clearly said he couldn't interfere. All he could do is send him to Yoda. So it still fits.

Not strong enough evidence for me, Ush. Besides, maybe IF Qui-Gon appears, why would he appear to Anakin and not just to OB1? OB1 was his apprentice, Anakin never was.

I find it hard to beleive Anakin wouldn't hear about it.Script treatments AREN'T EU. And Vader clearly had no idea that there was anyone continuing Luke's tuition.

I note the official website is clear about Anakin's body:

<As he lay dying, Vader ceased to be. Anakin Skywalker returned. He asked his son to remove the cumbersome, fearsome mask that had concealed his face for decades. His mask and life support removed, Anakin looked upon Luke for the first and last time. He then died, his body disappearing into the light side of the Force. Luke burned the dark armor that had encased Anakin's crippled body in a quiet funeral pyre on the forest moon of Endor that night.>

I think my position is looking stronger...

I think they dissapered because they were ready to die. Obi-wan gave his life, Yoda knew he was going to die, and so didn't Vader, but GQ wasn't ready to die, he wanted to train Anakin!

To me? Of course he will. Hey if the ghost of Anakin, Yoda, Ben Kanobi came back in the last Episode, then of course so will Jinn's. I believe he has already come back as a ghost and has watched Anakin for the past 10 years as he trained with the help of Ben. He is coming back, and I even think he will return in Episode III.

Welcome JediKnightess

OK, I'm leaning to the fact that QGJ may have forseen his death, and made a recording for either Anakin, or Obi-Wan
Or that QGJ is the first to appear in spirit form.

GL *did* say he would clear this up in Ep2...

Indeed he did. As I say, if QGJ turns up in Spirit form it would be very odd indeed.

This is hwat i mean by saying episode II will be more enjoyable. It would answer these quetions.

Jedi Knightess- please remember that the Ghost thing is NOT normal. It was something extraordinary that Obi-Wan did, it is not a standard Jedi trait.