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OKay, correct me if i'm wrong (as always), but i don't think the Oracle was the mother of the Matrix.

Okay, first of all, i have to make an assumption: The Oracle does care about what happens to the Humans and Neo, and will therefore try to help them in any way she can. Theoretically, this would mean that she tell Neo what she knows, including, we assume, that there were other anomalies. now, since she either didn't know, or knew and didn't tell Neo, i am going to assume she Doesn't know. This would mean that she didn't come into Existence until after Anomaly five had his code rewritten, aka gone to the source. Meaning that the Oracle is either killed or destroyed every reboot, and the Oracle could not be the mother, meaning it would have to be someone else entirely.

I know that i had to assume a bit, but it seems as if she truly wants to help Neo, doesn't it? Its a suggestion, reply so we can accept or reject this theory. Tell me if you think good idea or not.

im might not agree now
i forgot about at all that ! (tshirt)


i supose the most obvious question is how can i trust you
...bad news is you can never really know whether im here to help you or not...

I disagree.

Clearly several programs survive the rebooting. The architect, Merogovian (sp?) and Smith all made references to previous "Ones". So they have survived and reloads, reboots or new versions.

The Oracle hasn't told us she knows about the previous Ones, but then again, she speaks cyptically and never tells us everything we want to know.

The Architect stated that the Oracle was the Mother of the Matrix. He had no reason to lie. Doing so doesn't help the movie or the plot. In fact, I don't think there has been any outright lies by any character. Some misinterpretations, someone may have been a little short on details, but no outright lies.

If the Architect wanted to lie about the Oracle, he would probably be better served to lie and say she is evil and is using Neo as a pawn to take over the Matrix and harm the humans. This may get Neo to try and attack the Oracle.

no actually, the exchange was:

Architect: "Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another. An intuitive program, Initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human Psyche. If i am the father of the Matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother."
Neo: "The Oracle"
Architect: "Please. As i was saying she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly ninety-nine percent of all test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconcious level."

If you watch this part again, you will see that the Architect grimaces when Neo says "the Oracle", meaning, to me at least, that it isn't the Oracle that was the mother, meaning she is not necessarily been around the entire time. If Neo had been correct in his assumption, then, if the Architect were telling the truth, the Architect would have continued, or acknowledged that he was right, not respond to make one think that he was hurt by the assumption. Also, when does Smith make references to previous ones? i don't remember that part, but i don't think Smith knows about the others.

Smith says, "Its happening again."
Then copied smith says, "Yes, but not exactly." or something similar.
I think the Architect says please as in why call her the Oracle. Like I would say Neo is the Savior, well in a way he is, but someone would say please like that's a strong word to describe the person. The architect never says yes or no, he was in disgust of the way humans have made her out to be an Oracle.

I disagree. She goes by nothing other than the Oracle, in fact the priestess calls her the Oracle in M1.

Also, i believe that Smith himself is the "cataclysmic system crash", which means that if Smith was the same agent, he would know what the other agent had become, and thereofre he wouldn't say not exactly to himself.

as the prophecy was just another form of control the architect wouldnt appreciate her being called an oracle. the architect of course knows all the truth, the priestess and rebels wouldnt.
merovingian taking the mick calls her their fortune teller

Seraph is short for Seraphim The highest ranking angel in God's kingdom.



Remember what Seraph said the Neo," I protect what matters most".

Seraph is protecting the Oracle, which is also GOD. Thats why he's Gold and not green.



So I guess this answers the question of who created the Matrix. It was the Oracle not Persephone.

If Persephone were the creator, Seraph would be guarding her because she would be what matters most.

Ahh I see where you are coming from.

Urot> like the signature

Thats a very good argument, Omega, I hadn't thought of that. Well said.

Well the mother would know the majority of things about their child right? As usual, the father would keep the closest eye on it, checking up on its every detail and making sure it's child is doing something it's not supposed to be. The mother would also be the one usually who guides her children on the path to becoming grown (I know this isn't true in all cases...it's just what people expect from a motherly character on screen....usually). Well the Oracle fits that role rather well as does the Architect for the father.

Then we have the Intuitive program, originally designed to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. Now correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the Oracle do just that as well.

Then we have her name which could take a few different meanings:

A shrine consecrated to the worship and consultation of a prophetic deity, as that of Apollo at Delphi.

A person, such as a priestess, through whom a deity is held to respond when consulted.

The response given through such a medium, often in the form of an enigmatic statement or allegory.

A person considered to be a source of wise counsel or prophetic opinions.

An authoritative or wise statement or prediction.
(all above meanings taken from Dictionary.com)

But it can also mean Oracle database. I am sure some of you have heard of this. Oracle uses a computer language called SQL (Server Query Language) which communicates with the server and the database (Oracle being the database). Think about how thats relevant to the Oracle in the movies - very, if you ask me

But long story short, I do believe she is the mother.

Omega, you are a genius...
What if, and just ponder this for a few minutes before replying, but what if Zion HAD BEEN Matrix v1.0. The world was perfect, man created AI, but was against the belief that AI is human ("Bits and Pieces" by Larry Wachowski and somebosy else), and they poisoned the skiesto kill the machines. (This is just a brief synopsis of Second Revolution, so don't yell at me, cause i know i left stuff out.) Thus, the "Machines" in ZION Forced the humans into slavery, creating Matrix v2.0. People are still born into the real world, and the Machines, the real ones, still have control over the humans, but in a amazingly different way than before. The monumental failure was the fact that the humans could not get along with the machines, and the "near subconcious" level is actually a dream of a dream. This seems to fit with everything we know so far, please reply.

Thx Korri.

Matrix 2.0. Hrmmm!

The Architect says he created the perfect world. But he was frustrated by failure. He then says he redesigned it, based upon our grotesueries. But again, he was frustrated by failure. He then came to understand that the problem eluded him because it required a lesser mind.......

From that I would say we are in something closer to Matrix version 3.6

looks kewl

Sorry My Friend, but Seraph protects that which matters most, and what the Oracle values most as well. The Future. In the game movie, the oracle says "Even I cannot see past the End."
Niobe "Are you saying the world is going to end?"
Oracle "Yes, if we cannot stop it."

Seraph is the Time Keeper, or something along that line. He is not protecting the oracle, or as you think "God"

But as for why he is Gold, I'm still working that out.

I never said my theory was cast in stone. Its just one of many...

Omega> That is correct, they have no "Choice", but they did not have to accept it. I'm still working on the details, but if Second Renaissance..
No. What if, as you said "Omega", Zion was written for humans to co-habitate with machines, and was decided beforehand what would happen. If we take everything the Architect says with a grain of salt, perhaps the Machines knew, before creating Zion, that the humans wouldn't accept them. What if, Zion was destined to fall, so that, they could have this secondary measure of security, this, "HAHA you got out of the Matrix, but you'll never get out of Zion, cause you don't know the truth". And, i think that the first and second attempt were fluid, back to back, because in "second Renaissance" it says that many humans were tortured with protein substances. This, the idea that Zion is really Matrix v1.0, would explain how Neo stopped the Sentinels, and would explain the "forgotten trailer", b/c the w-ski bros wanted to do three movies when they made Bound, and they had to draw out the entire thing, at least for one movie, before WB allowed them to do Matrix.

Just a cookie...

Errrm, doesn't it make sense that the Oracle IS Future? By this I mean, she is the program for Future. 2 things tell me this.

I'm interested in one thing, Neo, the Future......

&

We're all here to do, what we're all here to do.

But you could also add:

An Intuitive program...

Ahh well, think of it what you will as it was just what I thought the most logical.

I don't think she is FUTURE, per se, i just think that she is a program designed to read the formula of the matrix, and from that is able to "see" the future. I think there may be a time-keeper program, but i don't think Oracle is programmed for that function, just to read the matrix.Also, is this is her programming, don't you think that, although she is "trying" to help the humans, she is still controlled by what she is told/sees in the matrix?

i say she is similiar to a help programme.....or something like that

remember the sewers used to be cities that spanned hundreds of miles...


the machines cannot kill the human race, they need a human to make the choice - the one

Myabe it is that Smith DOESN'T know where Zion is, maybe he doesn't know that there were other anomalies, maybe he is just an ignorant police man, that can jump over streets and dodge bullets. And if we dont trust SR, how can we trust anything? "It is a pickle, no doubt about that." And i think you subsribe more to the coincidence rather than purpose ideality. The machines are not meant to reach Zion until the one reaches the Architect. Everything has a purpose, and i'm not saying my theory is perfect, or right, but you have to figure purpose into everything, even so-called "human choice".

i think the zion mainframe being able to survive five destructions is irrelevant to us being able to watch second renaissance, the bros wanted to show us the history of how it all happened, i dont think it would be a lie

shes very old, shes been with us since the beginning -of the resistance


what did the oracle tell morpheus so he split up with niobe!?!

Burlyman> The only thing we know for sure, that Morpheus has from the Oracle, is that Morpheus would find the One. So perhaps he shut out everything else from his life but his quest?

similar to why ghost is celibate? (as he explains to trinity after zen garden)

trinity said to neo something along the lines of 'one day he went to see the oracle, after that everything changed'
bit sudden

I understand how you can say that Trinity was told that she would fall in love with the one being her "purpose", but it was her purpose to go into the Matrix after the other ship is destroyed, so that Neo can enter the Architects room, and to force Neo to make the "other" decision, which she did entirely of her own accord, she was not told she would do this by the Oracle, she chose to risk her life for Neo by herself. The Fact that she would fall in love with the one helped the process, but it was no one else's decision to go in. also, the One and the 23 humans have the choice to build anywhere they want, not just where the previous Zion was located. In this, if Zion is not a program, then the Machines would have to follow a ship to find Zion, and no ship would allow this to occur. therefore, the Sentinels would have to travel all over and through the world in order to find it, and they had one hundred years, but once they found it, they should just send all Sentinels to that area and Destroy it, not wait for the one to fulfill his quest. This is why i find it hard to believe that Zion is really the real world.

Just want to say excellent thread.

Couple of things:

I tend to think the Oracle is the morther of the Matrix. Based on this quote from Kneau:

REEVES: I think in terms of the representation of the films, the Brothers don't tend to do things like that, like hood-wink you. It's not like, "I see dead people", where you are watching this whole movie and then, "By the way... " I don't think they do that kind of cinema. So my answer to your question is no. I don't think it is so boxes within boxes. I think that Zion is Zion.

Keeping that in mind who is the most motherly figure? The Oracle.

She guides Neo. When Neo first sits down in Reloaded to talk to her the manner the Oracle uses is very motherly. The "Let's get the obvious out of the way." She doesn't tell Neo but rather let's him make a conclusion based on his own reasoning.

She offers him a cookie in M1 and candy in M2.



Also Omega hit a key point when she(?) said Zion does not need to be in the Matrix to be a level of control.

burlyman: It's not what she said to him, but what she did to him?

yeah, the candy, the cookie, are both excellent guises, both for the truth and for something else... ;D

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/idea.gif

Omega: Keep this in mind. Zeus and Demeter were the parents of Persephone.

Imo The Oracle and Persephone are not equals.

We still can't discount the fact that the Architech/Zeus may have been bluffing, or straight out lying to Neo about the Oracle's involvement in building or upgrading the Martix.

As you stated Persephone is not a very motherly type of person.

have you guys read the comic with the child Hope? I wont say more to spoil it, but its definately worth the read. It's "made a believer out of me."

Yes I have, and I must say it is a very good read.

In response to the child comment from ETM in relation to the oracle:

I haven't played ETM through to the end, so I'm not sure how the "child" is mentioned in reference to the movie. However, in just looking at the word child, I come to the conclusion of "The Kid" from Animatrix and Reloaded. Any possibility there? He did give Neo the spoon in the Zion..

Or.....

The child that was in the Oracle's apartment that handed Neo the spoon and somewhat enlightened him in the concept of "There is no spoon..." Could he/she have something to do with the "Child" reference??

Just my thoughts.....

] In response to the child comment from ETM in relation to the oracle:

I haven't played ETM through to the end, so I'm not sure how the "child" is mentioned in reference to the movie. However, in just looking at the word child, I come to the conclusion of "The Kid" from Animatrix and Reloaded. Any possibility there? He did give Neo the spoon in the Zion..

Or.....

The child that was in the Oracle's apartment that handed Neo the spoon and somewhat enlightened him in the concept of "There is no spoon..." Could he/she have something to do with the "Child" reference??

Just my thoughts.....

Sorry about the double post.....Forgot to address with the thought....

you could have hit the "edit" button...

While it is possible that Michael Popper is the child refered to, i'm not thinking that he is. I'm not discounting it, but i don't think so. Also, it is possible that the boy from Matrix, "there is no spoon", could be the child, but we have no evidence that he has anything else to do with the sequels. Again, i'm not discounting your theories, they are plausible, but, more than likely, i think the child is someone we have not met yet.

LL awww thats so sweet

Hehehe I love that!

Magicrat welcome to our home.

Sorry bout that....First time I've really used a forum....
Found the edit function, but won't let me delete my previous posts.....

I must say though, there are some pretty good theories about how this is going to end... I think there is more to "The Kid" than we know yet..... After watching the AniMatrix a few times, it really only adds more questions and only answers a couple.

Thanks for the welcome

if u need anymore help just ask us

Right just ask.

Oh keep this in mind. Unlike Korri I charge for my services.

So feel free to ask for my help.

awwww ur so nice -=Urot=-

Same here.
Always glad to help...

I hate to keep repeating it, and if i'm wrong, you can all send me nasty messages after we see Revolutions, but i believe that Zion is a program, just like the Matrix...

Also, wouldn't choice be considered part of emotion, or would it be a cross between reason and emotion?

Omega> Yeah, but there has to be some way to "classify" choice. I mean, some people make decisions based on emotion, some based on reason, and some are somewhere in the middle. If i were to classify choice, i would say that it is the offspring of Reason and Emotion. Do you see where i'm going?

umm now was it just me, or did ALL of you misread the comic. Not once did Hope change outside the matrix, it happened all inside. You only see Hope outside the matrix one time, as a little girl, her *original* form. That is, of course, when the captain returns from Zion. Correct?

Icon> Hm, not really. The entire comic takes place in the REAL world. It's, first of all, LINK who's out looking for her (he's an operator. They're usually always Zion-born). Secondly tehy're not afraid of running into agents, but sentinels.

Thats how *I* read it at least.

Omega: I agree that the machines have not lied thus far. It just feels like the Architech is is not sharing the whole truth. He's not lying, but hes not telling Neo everything about the matrix, and his involvement in it.
-------------------
JediHDM: I agree with you. I still think the real world is just another level of the matrix. I think the W. Bros are hinting at that through the girl hope, the kid who freed himself, and also the "Reality" trailer in M1.

Heres that M1 Reality Pic.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=465536

That pic shows The Architech watching Neo in the real world. How can that be if both worlds are not supposed to be connected?

Or ask yourself was it a fluke that Agent Smith was able to download his essence into Bane?

What about Neo stopping the Sentinals in the sewers?

I think in the next movie the Brothers will smack us in the face with the truth about Zion. I would not be shocked it Zion were another level of control, constructed by the Architech inorder to keep mankind unaware of the true condition they were really in.
------------------
Yes I know some of these theories have been talked about already.

It is true that the person lookin for her was Link. But notice:
He was White, it seemed at least
He was holding a pistol, what good against a Sentinal?
He was at a burnt down church orphanage, but he acted like it should have been in good shape, and was suprised it wasnt. If it were the real world, wasn't almost every building basically wasted anyhow?
And I'm not completely sure i remember but didnt the operator say somethin bout "Theres an exit" at some location. (Not Too Sure)

well gimmie feedback.

In that comic Link was looking for the girl in the Martix. he was also having a converstaion with his shipmate back in the real world.

The Phoneline that you speak of was a few blocks away from the burnt out church. They were stuck on the roof. So the operator stated that they could climb down the wirelees lines inorder to get to the hardline down the street.

Side note: inorder to jack out of the matrix, you need a hardline. Telephones conected to the wall would be considered a hardline. Cell phones and wireless towers are not connedted to any hardlines. All they can be used for is comunications.

Correction: Hardlines have to be set up by the rebels, as I recall. Not just any payphone and such will do. They have to hack the phone or look for an open port or something along the lines of that fun stuff

right icon.

Woohoo

Omega> So, perhaps, If the program that governs Reason(Archie), and the Program that governs Emotion(Persephone), made a child, and this offspring were placed/overwritten/copied into a human, this "child" would have the "choice" inherent in itself (Anomaly, Hope, Michael, etc.). Perhaps, the programming of the ONE was written by Archie and Persephone, and, when placed in NEO, he would be the "child" the Oracle speaks of, the future of, well, everything.

As I was falling asleep last nite this thought came into my mind.

What if the real world was not apart of the matrix?

When the Architech was making the different versions of the Matrix ( after his first failed attempt), he did such a great job at dupilcating every little detail. What if the amazing things that can be done in the Matrix, can also be done in the real world?

What if both words were identical in almost every way?

Heres some quotes from the first film.





















Sorry for all thr long quotes. I just wanted you guys to think about thin line between The Matrix and Reality.

Imo I think the Architech and The Oracle may know that both Realities are almost identical. I think Neo may have figured that out, and stopped the sentinles in the real world.

Give me some feed back about my thoughts.

As i was going to sleep last night, i was thinking about Mythology, and the Mero/Perse connection...Perhaps, Mero had something that Archie/Perse did not want him to have. Perhaps it was a code to end the Matrix, perhaps it was the threat of revaeling the truth to the One before meeting the Archie, who knows? However, if the Mero had something he was not supposed to, perhaps the only way to get it back was to barter with Mero., give him Oracle's termination code, and make Perse his wife. Perhaps the Archie is not as powerful as we believe. Whatever the reason, it is probably not Persephone, but the most easily accessible program was Persephone, since we have characterized her as an "emotional vampire". But yes, i definitely believe it to be some program that governs FREE WILL and CHOICE, and i think the Mero either had him at one time, or knows of him, considering him "soap-box" speech conserning the powerful and the peons. I don't know, just some thoughts, but i'm open to ideas, although i do believe something like this happened.

So what do you guys think about The topic of The Matrix and Reality being almost identical?

*** Look at my last post to see what i'm talking about. ***

I think that if the Matrix and Reality were identical, then NO ONE would leave the Matrix, everyone would accept the Matrix. I think there must be some kind of innate behaviour that tells us about our world, and if the Matrix is exactly like it, then we would not rebel. Realize that there is something truly wrong with the Matrix, that so many people would not accept it for what it is. I think that, subconciously, people may realize that they are slaves, and they know this is not supposed to be so, causing their minds to drift. Reality would not have this slavery, and so they would accept it, no doubts. Given, some would question, just to be difficult, or perhaps they are gifted, but, if the Machines were able to write a Matrix that gets rid of this feeling of slavery, of submission, it would truly be a scary place.

Right I agree.

I was really talking about the possiblity of doing amazing things in Reality, just like in The Matrix.

Both places are governed by physical laws, like gravity and many others.

If you can jump from roof top to roof top in the matrix. What would stop you from doing the samething in reality?

I think the only thing that would stop you from doing those amazing things in the real world would be your mind.

If you could over come thay way of thinking, you would be come unstopable.

About the hard lines. The rebels don't MAKE them at all. As said, they hack them using their pirate broadcast signal

um, well, the law of gravity is unbreakable, there is chaos theory, but, i dont subscribe to this theory and i wouldn't think that the Wachowskis would either. Getting your mind to bend the law of gravity when it is a program is one thing, but i don't think Neo could break the natural laws, period. Unless Zion is a matrix. If Zion is not a Matrix, it would require, well, Neo be unhuman, or, well, i cant think of anything else. We know Neo is human (just ask Trin...) so, i don't know. And Sifer is right, they don't make their own hardlines, they have to pirate them, hack into them.

Exactly, you can't think of the answer Exactly what the Wachowski's intended no doubt. There is gonna be a more complex reason for why Neo can do this thing in the real world and it will make sense - I guarantee. Also, I am holding my opinion on his so called law defying ability in the real world until I hear the Wachowski's explanation of it. I've got no doubts that they can pull it off

Also: "Evolution Morpheus, it's all about evolution."

Could it be possible that Neo is the next step in human evolution? Or possibly a human with a computer program as a mind (a higher form of AI)? No doubt this ability is somehow linked to Smith, but how? Well there are a few explanations of that I could come up with now (more than likely all wrong, but who cares...LOL).

Go ahead, Sifer, share with us. You listen to us, we will listen to you. I am interested.

As i do not believe in evolution, i think that it is unlikely that Neo is the next stage. And it is not that i cannot think of an answer, it is that breaking the laws of "nature", as written and governed by a program, is a totally different thing from breaking the laws of nature, governed by God. I'm not saying Neo can't do it, it is a possibility, but i don't think that that is the way the Wachowskis are moving.

Also, how about you give me reasons why my theory won't work, as i'm tired of thinking of reasons why yours is invalid.

i couldnt put my finger on it before and i havent quite yet (all you other guys probably hav) but there you go thats what forums are for...

when neo is flying out of the explosion morpheus says 'what is that' and link says 'whatever it is its moving faster than anything ive ever seen before'
when he visited the architect he must have 'touched the source' (the architects crib wasnt), unconciously neo has 'seperated his mind from his body'
we first see this when he tightens his grip when flying really really fast
once jacked out he must have more powers in the real world (help me)
not quite sure why hes in some sort of coma

I'm not sure, but somehow Mero obtains the "Neo" that is in the Matrix, and i think that this is why Neo is in a coma. As i said i don't know how or why, but i'm working on it.

is there any more significance with hel, pers, mero, and greek mythology etc, where we may find clues http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/closedeyes.gif

Possibly, but then we would have to look through ALL mythology, and that would take forever, much longer than we have to wait for Revolutions. However, this is interesting...

Hel was known as the queen goddess of the underworld. She was originally raised in Asgard with her father, but was later given the underworld of Nifelheim/Helheim as her domain. She presided over all of the dead but those who were killed in battle. Those who died heroically in battle ended up in Valhalla, the Hall of the Heroes. She was the sole goddess to decide the fate of those souls who entered her domain.

Depicted: Hel had quite a disturbing appearance; she was born with her bones exposed on the outside of her body. It is also sometimes said that she was both black and white. Her body was known as representing both sides of the spectrum.

smith and neo both got killed, rejected going to the source*, returned to the matrix as exiles, have a conscience in both worlds, and then have a coma in the real world at the same time

* 'i understood what i was supposed to do but i didnt, i was compelled to stay, compelled to disobey'
smiths knows exactly what to do to kill neo and end the matrix

Actually, Neo is not a program, therefore he was not given a choice concerning the source, he was just supposed to die. Therefore, since Neo is human, he CANNOT be an exile, as only programs are exiles. We do not know that Smith has a conscience, but he acts like he feels, like he has emotions. Also, We don't know that Bane is in a coma, we just assume that. And Bane is not Smith, but Smith has taken over Bane's body, although the body is still Bane's, it is not Smiths. And, since Smith is a program, he cannot be killed in the literal sense, his code was, seemingly destroyed, but he was not killed. Neo, however, was killed.

...So, what was your point, exactly?

yeh i know smith wasnt 'killed' ok i dont mean neos an exile like smith is i mean he just hasnt done what he is supposed to do when i say conscience i kinda just ment like a persona - theyre in both
and neo is more machine and smith is more human
i was just being simple, in future i must choose my words very carefully

my point was about neos coma.. and banes 'coma'.. im not quite sure...
dont mind me im just digging imaginary holes http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/bye.gif

"The Ones doing what they're supposed to be doing are invisible, you wouldn't even know they where there"

HAHAHA

and next time, can you use com(m)as? its really hard to read five sentences that are not punctuated, so they run together.

Indeed Omega

Omega> Interestingly put. I did not think that Mero could be the Architects equal. But if we assume their equality, then could we assume that the Architect is not who he says he is, that he did not design the Matrix, but, rather, was designed as another form of control, another illusion? I do not think that the Oracle would be Demeter, as i don't think she wrote Persephone. I think of the Oracle as being closer to the Fates, as Mero said that the humans are very good at following orders, it is almost like Oracle tells them what to do next, and they do it, because they believe it was their choice to do it. I don't know, maybe she did write Persephone, and there is a whole nother side to the Oracle that we haven't seen before. And thank you for elaborating on my reason for Neo and reality, i realize it wasn't as well put as you said it.

Well if you look in my Mero thread, this is exactly what I was trying to direct everybody into thinking. Mero isn't the Architects equal, rather, someone who strives to be more powerful than him ie. Lucifer

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/yes.gif ok i was really tired http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/moresmilies/sleepy.gif

LL

its cool...