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Is this better Ush? You can reply first, but don't close it please

Yo, please explain what you are talking about. Thanks.

Ok, here's the thung (spun off from the old Greedo topic):

We have two basic contentious issues:

1. The morality of Star Wars. Some people have tried to talk about the grey areas the Revels live in- defying law, killing for what they beleive in, and so on. My counterpoint is that GL constructed this universe withg a very simple morality mostly based on old westerns, where good guys and bad guys were clearly divded (white hats, black hats). The good guys only ever did good and the bad guys only ever did bad.

So it is with Star Wars, where this simple moral structure is provided where you are not meant to question the motives and morals ofmthe good guys- the film is simply not that advanced. It;s for kids, after all.

The exception to the 'no grey areas' rule are the Skywalkers, which is why their plot is the central omne.

I posted some quotes in my support, I can repeat them if necessary but that argument seemed to end there.

2. Focusing more on the Jedi and Battle Droids. This started as a discussion as to whether Battle Droids could really be considered 'alive' or not, general consensus is no (one of the reasons GL used them as an enemy in the PT; things you can 'kill' wiothout remorse'

However, Yerssot extended this point to say that while they may not be alive, they seem similar enough to humanoids to have to involve some degree of aggressiveness or killer instinct if you attack and destroy them for a reasons other than self-defence. By extension, if you are so willing to kill battle droids, it will become somewhat easier for you to kill humans should you ever be faced with the chance to do so.

I disagreed; I made out that as battle droids are so clearly non-sentient then destroying one is no more likely to affect your mental attitude to violence than would smashing a toaster- regardless of how human they LOOK, if you knew they were not really alive there would be no problem.

And doubly so for the Jedi, who have a good and clear idea about right and wrong and what is and isn't alive.

Which brings us back to the original point; as 'white hats', the Jedi are good guys and their intentions are not meant to be questioned by the viewer.

Agreed, but clonetroopers would be another matter entirely.

I agree with Ush. If you watch TPM then you'll see the smaller droids going around and picking up the parts of the "dead" battledroids. Obviously they are going to be remade so they aren't thought of as alive.

. If you watch TPM then you'll see the smaller droids going around and picking up the parts of the "dead" battledroids. Obviously they are going to be remade so they aren't thought of as alive.

You can consider that with cloning also: a guy died and they take a living cell and they clone him so there is another guy looking the same. So you can say that the 'original' are not considered alive.

Oooh, now, bringing cloning into the whole thing is REAL painful...

However, I would say that making fresh clones using cells from dead people would be creating new life rather than re-activating old.

ok, I will stop about the clones because the original thing went about droids and not clones.

With that I just wanted to show that you can bring that also back in human-actions

Oh, feel free to use clones; this has turned into a general subject now. Just that theire is always a dangeorus moral undercurrent with the whole cloning issue that makes for tricky discussion.

It would still be a brand-new clone, is the point. As opposed to the robot, which is rebuilt.

Not that we have much idea yet what Star Wars clones are like, which makes discussion of them difficult.

Now, of course, C3-P0 can be re-built, and is presented as fully sentient. But it;s not the body that is important, it is the brain (or whatever equivalent C3-P0 has). Droid bodies can be re-built, but I would guess brains are far more difficult.

If you can re-build the damaged memories of a droid, have you brought it 'back' to life? Or have you merely vreated a new life with the same memories? Who knows? There is no way to tell.

Still, this isn't really the sort of complex issue that Star Wars tends to get into.

It would still be a brand-new clone, is the point. As opposed to the robot, which is rebuilt.

???Why is a clone brand-new? It is just like a robot: rebuilded from something of the original owner


Now, of course, C3-P0 can be re-built
We only saw him in pieces with a working head, so that is not actual rebuilding, that is putting the pieces back togather, like giving a false arm with humans

I don't think that the memories will pass on, so it is an entire new creature.

Still, this isn't really the sort of complex issue that Star Wars tends to get into.
Yekyek we move boundrys

I think that we aren't following the real reason why this tread openend, but it is still correct accourding to the title.

I think we are ok with opening it up a bit.

The principle of using organic material to grow clones is very different from the principle of recycling robotic parts, but never mind, that line isn't getting us anywhere.

However, are the clones raised like normal people? I don't think so. They are raised for one purpose: to be the Republic's shocktroops. Is one different from another? Do the clones hang out after work is over? I don't know about that... well, there is one ANH example "Have you seen that new speeder?'
"Ah yes, it's quite nice."

Err... not sure what you mean by that example...

We have no idea on the true purpose, make-up, individuality or longevity of the clonea as of yet.

Let's take an example: Sparta;
for the non-european guys: Sparta was (is) a Greek city, that was at war with Athens during the Greek-Roman erea; they had a hard life: they based their society on war: little boys ware trained very hard and they had no sparetime;
so you can say that they aren't raised like 'normal' persons just like battledroids

My example was just showing that the stortroopers talked about other stuff than being soldiers. t was like two guys talking about some cool car, or something. This would make them more human, I think.

Spartans weren't remotely like Battledroids. They were sentient. They were also interested in a full range of human values; just because they weren't as art-obsessed as the Athenians doesn't mean they were any less human than the next man along.

Battledroids are single function machines.

Jedi212- your assumtpion there is that Stormtroopers are cloned. We have no proof of this.

But the stormtroopers do discuss "human" things. In ANH when Obi-Wan turns off the tractor beam the stormtrooper discuss whats going on before changing the subject towards some new model that have been made. Then again the stormtroopers discussion are somewhat limited throug the SW saga.

Personally I dont belive the stormtroopers are clones, I think they are subscripted, enlisted into the service of the Empire. Further I belive the clone wars was to settle the cloning question once and for all, and I think the jedis were victorius in the end. The war took its tall on the jedi`s though, this way Palpatine could declear himself emperor without too much challange towards his declaration. The jedis where still licking their wounds and Palpatine probably had a lot of support througout the senate, because they belived he would restore the Republic to the glory of the" good ol`days". Maybe the jedi`s had faith in him as well as a strong chancellor that would end the turmoil in the galaxy.

Just some of my thoughts about certain aspects of the SW saga.

I agree, on the whole.

i just want to change the angle of this slightly, vader was dressed in black for obvious reasons, however the storm troopers were dressed in white, admittedly they had a black backdress, Luke was dressed in black also, therefore the whole thing about black and white hats falls apart, was there not some confussion when lucas first showed the film company his film because they at first couldn't work out who the bad guys were.

btw i hope the clones get their arses kicked and i hope that italien doctor who is trying to clone a human watches the film when the clones mess up and get killed by the jedi.

if you clone a cell of someone, does the memory of that peron cross over to the clone?

people shouldn't play GOD, they should only be GOD.

White Hats/Black HAtrs is just a metaphor, it's not literal! In Star Wars the clear morality division is the Force, not costume. I hope I don;t have to prove the Western thing again...

The Luke wearing black thing is different, though., As I pointed out, the one greay area is the Skywalkers, wehich is why they are the main plot. Luke's black gear was meant to make him look a little more mean.

Like I said before, cloning is a very complex ethical issue; best skipped for the films, I guess.

If the dress thing has a "second "agenda, maybe the black dress Luke wears is to show that there is a thin line between the light and the dark side of the force.

It is not about Stormtroopers it is about killing something resambeling humans, that you can so be turned to the Dark Side, sorry for the long time I didn't respond; I have problems with internet, sorry Ush, I will discuss this till the end of my days, and I will life longer

Hey, no worries.

I still think that so long as you know that the Battle Droids aren't alive then destroying them will not affect your attitude towards harming humans in any way. I reckon you could destroy 5000 droids in an orgy of robotic violence and still find harming a living human (or alien, or even sentient droid) a disgusting prospect.

I still not agree
You have killed a lot of battledroids; they walk,speak,think (YES THEY DO), they do stuff like everybody else.
SO; killing them would make you more able to acces the Dark Side; because you are now closer to killing a person because he does the same things as a battledroid

PS: I just wanted to say: I think that Bush made an error with giving away funds; it is ok for that if it is for deseases and stuff; but you will know that the money will go (illegaly) to cloning humans, wich is in my opinion WAY wrong, we aren't ready for such knowledge!!

I don't life in the US and I don't inted to; feel free to replay to this post scriptum but remember like ratcat always says: STAY ON TOPIC

Battle Droids do not think any more than your PC does! They are just executing a programme! We could build an (expensive) robot today that could do virtually all of the things a Battle Droid does. It would not even be remotely alive!

It doesn't matter how much they mimic humans. So long as you know what is and isn't alive it should not affect your attitude at all.

You are cruel!

We also execute a program but a more complicated one; it wont effect your attitude but your attitude is not the same as your thoughts; you only know when it is too late that you are influenced by the Dark Side

The brain is no programme; it is fundamentally different.

They do the same thing
btw: nice example is Ki-Adi-Mundi's binary brain

But we don;t know what they MEAN by binary brain. He is clearly not like a computer because he is not stuck in yes or no programmed responses.

I think it means his brain is ore in keeping with a SENTIENT droid's brain, like C3-P0's.

We do also do the yes/no thing: will I wake up now? yes/no
Would I eat bread with cheese for breakfast? yes/no
and so on

We have the alternative of maybe.

That is no choice that is just running away from it

maybe I`ll watch ANH or maybe I will watch TPM or perhaps I choose ROTJ. More than a yes or no choise there.

The fact remains that computer programming and execution is not remotely like human thought. The Battle Droids are simply computer guided.

You can argue all day without success as to whether C3-P0 is really alive or not, but he is clearly a far more sophisticated being, and his brain may well be of such a complexity to merit 'life', in which case it won;t be simply executing programmed instructions.

KAM's brain, therefore, is probably droid-like, but in any case he fulfils all requirements for sentients, unlike the battle droids.

Finti: actually you go like this:
Am I going to watch TPM? No
ANH? No
TESB maybe? No
ROTJ Yes

Ush: I told you before that droids and humans are NOT the same thing, the droids resamble humans; so the discussion is not about them having brains or that they are one big machine, it is about them resambling like humans, so that when Jedi kill them they would likely be more influenced when killing a person to attract them to the Dark Side!

PS: I'm glad you don't always agree with me U, the last time you agree so much that I'm beginning to think you are not the real Ushgarak anymore!

yerssot, go watch or read Bicenntenial Man and then say that again....

Sorry, we don't have that movie here in Belgium; so I can't reply to that, BUT I can say that there is a difference between that movie and Star Wars

Sorry, Yerssot, but you do keep seem to be going back to the premise that they are alive. Like I say, it does not matter how much they mimic humans. So long as you KNOW they are not sentient (which is really not that hard) then there is no problem, or associated problem, with destroying them. Like I say, you may as well say smashing toasters makes you more likely to kill humans. Just because Battle Droids have human-like qualities, it does not make any difference.

BTW, the fundamental points that humans can recognise possibilites other tahn just yes or no is one of the basics of professional AI, Yerssot. A computer can only recognise black and white; humans do shades of grey. So Finti''s use of thr word 'maye' is indeed appropriate.

But WE also thinks as yes/no; with only difference that IF there is a maybe we don't crash; I understand that the human brain is more complex than that of a droid; this has nothing to do with being more sentient, because they have both brains, binary or not

They aren't alive like us, but they are sort of alive: the only thing they need is electricity to live, we need air

you may as well say smashing toasters makes you more likely to kill humans

NO!! smashing battledroids, they make it more likely to be drawn to the dark side and kill than a human

You wouldnt have any problems destroying a fridge now would you Yerssot

COmputers need electrictiy to function. That does niot make them alive. Needing something to function does not cause life, your aegument is flawed.

You also violently reject my toaster point without explaining why not. My point is that neoither is alive and anyone with sense will know that., No difference, no matter how human looking the droid is.

Indeed.

And, yerss, I know you said that droids were not the same as human. But you DID suggest in the past that Jedi shoudl feel sorry cutting a droid in half. Now, why would they have to be sorry for destroying a fridge, a toaster, a computer or a droid if they are not like living creatures?

the simple answer to this argument is that r2 and 3po are baically droids just like the trade federation droids although much more popular characters, i'm sure Luke would be pissed off he accidently killed one of them, look at his concern for r2 at the end of anh.

Actually, humans don't really know that UNTIL it is taught to them... This is what AI developers are trying to build into the latest AI systems.

However, "shades of grey" is really only a statement of what happens when there are so many yes's and so many no's and you're trying to reconcile them... The human brain only knows two things fundimentally, YES and NO, however it is so complex that it is able to take that massive amount of YES and NO and turn it into thought...

A fridge doesn't move and doesn't speak; it doesn't resemble a battledroid wich resembles a human

But a battle droid is known to have no real inteligence of it's own.

if you notice during the whole of the film, the battle droids only respond to commands, i.e "process them", "tahe him away", "destroy what is left" that is surely why it was important to destroy the command ship so that no more commands could be given, the only intelligence a battle droid has is the inteligence to leave its transmitors on so that it can recieve the orders it requires to work.

Exactly.

Yes, but it understands the commands and they do it with almost human precision

because they've been programmed to, and also a machine/battle droid is more precise than a human anyway

I keep saying- it doesn't matter how much Battle Droids mimic humans; at their fundamental level they are no more than non-living, non-sentient machines, and it is the fundamental level that counts when it comes to wandering about the psychological effects of destroying them.

Destroying a human shaped (or even vaguely human behaved) object does not make you more likely to kill humans. Such a contentious point would at least need a lot of proof before I could believe it.

Same as playing video games and wanting to kill people. No relation whatsoever.

But you KNOW that you are playing a game, with the battledroids it is SW-reallife

'SW-reallife'? Sorry?

Anyway, the principle is identical. Computer game charatcers- not really alive. Battle Droids- not really alive.

how about when training to fight in a war, soldiers attack sacks of hay or scarecrows in preperation for killing real humans, GOD, think about the pain sacks of hay must feel when they got stabbed by a bayonet or shot, a battle droid may as well be a sack of hay without the command ship to provide commands. also the Jedi only attackt the droids after the jedi have been attacked first themselves, the battle droids will say something like "you're under arrest" "blast them", i'm sure if it was a human attacking them, like in rotj the Jedi wouldn't hesitate to defend themselves.

The sacs don't move and don't speak, so they DON'T resemble humans!!

It foesn't matter how much they RESEMBLE humans! Destroying human-like objects is the same as destroying any piece of hardware. Only whether they are truly alive counts.

Unless a person is mentally unstable enough to become as comfortable with destroying humans as he is with droids, I really don;t see this syndrome at all. And DEFINITELY not for the Jedi, who have theor heads screwed on tight and have a good idea about what is and isn't alive. They could destroy a billion battle droids and still be no more preapred to destroy a living thing.

Amen. brother!

There are a lot of examples of fallen Jedi ,so...

No, it is important that they resemble humans with movement and speech.

Destroying human-like objects is the same as destroying any piece of hardware.

NO!!! It is about how they look and how they resemble a human not that they sit and do nothing

Actually, there are VERY few examples of Fallen Jedi, the fact that the vast majority of the organisation stay on the Light Side despite constantly facing danger and combat and difficult moral situations rather goes to show something, yeah?

And Yerssot, no it is NOT about how they look, it is about how they ARE. How can you possibly support such a superficial view of the psychological nature of killing? The effort to destroy a non-living object, even one that vaguely resembles a human, is completely different to the effort needed to kill a human, or other living thing. Practicing one will in no way help you with the other. Actually extinguishing a life is conceptually different. The ONLY way you can practice for it; become more likely to do it; is to DO it. No substitute will work.

So, no matter HOW much the Battle Droids resemble humans, the destruction of them is only equivalent to destroying a machine, and it will not make you more likely to kill living things.

So you see: there ARE fallen Jedi

It is about them resembling a human being, so that if you kill a lot like on Naboo, you can more easily kill a human, if you are not with a strong mind

Yes, there ARE fallen Jedi, but your point is self-defeating, Yerssot, because they are so few as to be insignificant; the system, is as perfect as a system can be.

Meanwhile, if nothing new is being added to this argument then it will be closed.

NO!! Because there are fallen jedi proves that the whole system is wrong!!!


Why do you want to close this topic? It is still on topic!!

so far there is only 1 fallen jedi (discount eu etc) just because 1 jedi falls doesn't mean the system fails, if anything it shows that the system works because the fallen Jedi returns to the system, thus showing that the "Jedi" system works and that the "Sith" system does not work, it is surely the current and future of something that matters not the past.

There is no Sith-system: it is just the Jedi-system with fallen jedi.
Why don't' we inclued eu? We already talked about roids on earth, and that has nothing to do with the sw-universe.

Because that was a matter of AI philosophy, not necessarily SW, while bringing EU Fallen jedi into a discussion of the Jedi is just plain wrong.

I am in favour oif closing this topic because no new arguments are being produced; it's just a load of 'yes it is/no it isn't/yes it is...' and it is very tedious indeed.

I'll give it a little bit for someone to make a new point.

I don't get it? Why close??? We are on topic, the one just need to convice the other.

Why is bringing eu Fallen Jedi wrong? You had the droids on Earth, I will take the eu, that is faire.

To your first point, one side is making abosolutely no impact on the other sand is simply making the same points again and again which is a waste of time and as good a reason as any for closing a topic.

To your second, the point about real-life droids was because we were making a real-life argument about what is and is not considered alive, so real-world examples were relevant.

However, when it comes to giving me examples of Jedi that have fallen (as part of a argument designed to say that the Jedi are flawed), then only things that are factually true in the Star Wars universe count, EU is not true in the canonical Star Wars Universe, so EU fallen Jedi are no good.

But you used real-life examples, there is in no movie a link to a toaster.

You use real-life examples but you say it is not good, and than you say that eu is not good, but this topic is more than just sw-movies it also includes eu

This is an old debate, which funnily enough was raised by the Official Site just this week.

Anyway, as Ush has said, unless there are new points to be raised then this thread goes bye bye.

If you have any problem with that, and I am in total agreement with Ush on this, then I suggest you send a PM to Raz.

Is it not good enough that the official site also starts with this???

OK, loosing the plot here a bit. What do you mean?

The whole morality is raised by the official site that is a good reason to keep this running

Oh, I see, well we seem to be going in circles. Bring in the OWS point of view to continue the debate on morality by all means.

So now that you know the truth, I have to kill you.

I still stick to my point, come on Ush, you know I'm right

Still waiting for a fresh approach or fact about this topic to halt it's closure...

Do it Ush, I see no future here.

Well, Yerssot seemed so keen... but I guess you are right. Closing this, bring up a new, more specific one if you have a new idea.