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yerssot
Senior Member
Registered: Jul 2001
Location:
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Star wars morality
Is this better Ush? You can reply first, but don't close it please
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Aug 6th, 2001 05:33 PM |
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jedi212guy
Sith Warrior
Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Danville, Kentucky
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Yo, please explain what you are talking about. Thanks.
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Aug 6th, 2001 05:35 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UKCo-Admin
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Ok, here's the thung (spun off from the old Greedo topic):
We have two basic contentious issues:
1. The morality of Star Wars. Some people have tried to talk about the grey areas the Revels live in- defying law, killing for what they beleive in, and so on. My counterpoint is that GL constructed this universe withg a very simple morality mostly based on old westerns, where good guys and bad guys were clearly divded (white hats, black hats). The good guys only ever did good and the bad guys only ever did bad.
So it is with Star Wars, where this simple moral structure is provided where you are not meant to question the motives and morals ofmthe good guys- the film is simply not that advanced. It;s for kids, after all.
The exception to the 'no grey areas' rule are the Skywalkers, which is why their plot is the central omne.
I posted some quotes in my support, I can repeat them if necessary but that argument seemed to end there.
2. Focusing more on the Jedi and Battle Droids. This started as a discussion as to whether Battle Droids could really be considered 'alive' or not, general consensus is no (one of the reasons GL used them as an enemy in the PT; things you can 'kill' wiothout remorse'
However, Yerssot extended this point to say that while they may not be alive, they seem similar enough to humanoids to have to involve some degree of aggressiveness or killer instinct if you attack and destroy them for a reasons other than self-defence. By extension, if you are so willing to kill battle droids, it will become somewhat easier for you to kill humans should you ever be faced with the chance to do so.
I disagreed; I made out that as battle droids are so clearly non-sentient then destroying one is no more likely to affect your mental attitude to violence than would smashing a toaster- regardless of how human they LOOK, if you knew they were not really alive there would be no problem.
And doubly so for the Jedi, who have a good and clear idea about right and wrong and what is and isn't alive.
Which brings us back to the original point; as 'white hats', the Jedi are good guys and their intentions are not meant to be questioned by the viewer.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Aug 6th, 2001 05:47 PM |
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jedi212guy
Sith Warrior
Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Danville, Kentucky
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Agreed, but clonetroopers would be another matter entirely.
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Aug 6th, 2001 05:50 PM |
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KJ
Sausages
Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Scotland
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I agree with Ush. If you watch TPM then you'll see the smaller droids going around and picking up the parts of the "dead" battledroids. Obviously they are going to be remade so they aren't thought of as alive.
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Aug 6th, 2001 06:56 PM |
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yerssot
Senior Member
Registered: Jul 2001
Location:
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. If you watch TPM then you'll see the smaller droids going around and picking up the parts of the "dead" battledroids. Obviously they are going to be remade so they aren't thought of as alive.
You can consider that with cloning also: a guy died and they take a living cell and they clone him so there is another guy looking the same. So you can say that the 'original' are not considered alive.
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Aug 6th, 2001 08:52 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UKCo-Admin
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Oooh, now, bringing cloning into the whole thing is REAL painful...
However, I would say that making fresh clones using cells from dead people would be creating new life rather than re-activating old.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Aug 6th, 2001 09:04 PM |
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yerssot
Senior Member
Registered: Jul 2001
Location:
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ok, I will stop about the clones because the original thing went about droids and not clones.
With that I just wanted to show that you can bring that also back in human-actions
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Aug 6th, 2001 09:06 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UKCo-Admin
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Oh, feel free to use clones; this has turned into a general subject now. Just that theire is always a dangeorus moral undercurrent with the whole cloning issue that makes for tricky discussion.
It would still be a brand-new clone, is the point. As opposed to the robot, which is rebuilt.
Not that we have much idea yet what Star Wars clones are like, which makes discussion of them difficult.
Now, of course, C3-P0 can be re-built, and is presented as fully sentient. But it;s not the body that is important, it is the brain (or whatever equivalent C3-P0 has). Droid bodies can be re-built, but I would guess brains are far more difficult.
If you can re-build the damaged memories of a droid, have you brought it 'back' to life? Or have you merely vreated a new life with the same memories? Who knows? There is no way to tell.
Still, this isn't really the sort of complex issue that Star Wars tends to get into.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Aug 6th, 2001 09:15 PM |
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yerssot
Senior Member
Registered: Jul 2001
Location:
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It would still be a brand-new clone, is the point. As opposed to the robot, which is rebuilt.
???Why is a clone brand-new? It is just like a robot: rebuilded from something of the original owner
Now, of course, C3-P0 can be re-built
We only saw him in pieces with a working head, so that is not actual rebuilding, that is putting the pieces back togather, like giving a false arm with humans
I don't think that the memories will pass on, so it is an entire new creature.
Still, this isn't really the sort of complex issue that Star Wars tends to get into.
Yekyek we move boundrys
I think that we aren't following the real reason why this tread openend, but it is still correct accourding to the title.
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Aug 6th, 2001 09:27 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UKCo-Admin
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I think we are ok with opening it up a bit.
The principle of using organic material to grow clones is very different from the principle of recycling robotic parts, but never mind, that line isn't getting us anywhere.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Aug 6th, 2001 10:00 PM |
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jedi212guy
Sith Warrior
Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Danville, Kentucky
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However, are the clones raised like normal people? I don't think so. They are raised for one purpose: to be the Republic's shocktroops. Is one different from another? Do the clones hang out after work is over? I don't know about that... well, there is one ANH example "Have you seen that new speeder?'
"Ah yes, it's quite nice."
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Aug 6th, 2001 11:14 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UKCo-Admin
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Err... not sure what you mean by that example...
We have no idea on the true purpose, make-up, individuality or longevity of the clonea as of yet.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Aug 6th, 2001 11:16 PM |
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yerssot
Senior Member
Registered: Jul 2001
Location:
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Let's take an example: Sparta;
for the non-european guys: Sparta was (is) a Greek city, that was at war with Athens during the Greek-Roman erea; they had a hard life: they based their society on war: little boys ware trained very hard and they had no sparetime;
so you can say that they aren't raised like 'normal' persons just like battledroids
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Aug 7th, 2001 11:19 AM |
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jedi212guy
Sith Warrior
Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Danville, Kentucky
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My example was just showing that the stortroopers talked about other stuff than being soldiers. t was like two guys talking about some cool car, or something. This would make them more human, I think.
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Aug 7th, 2001 01:48 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UKCo-Admin
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Spartans weren't remotely like Battledroids. They were sentient. They were also interested in a full range of human values; just because they weren't as art-obsessed as the Athenians doesn't mean they were any less human than the next man along.
Battledroids are single function machines.
Jedi212- your assumtpion there is that Stormtroopers are cloned. We have no proof of this.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Aug 7th, 2001 05:08 PM |
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finti
Senior Member
Registered: Dec 2000
Location:
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But the stormtroopers do discuss "human" things. In ANH when Obi-Wan turns off the tractor beam the stormtrooper discuss whats going on before changing the subject towards some new model that have been made. Then again the stormtroopers discussion are somewhat limited throug the SW saga.
Personally I dont belive the stormtroopers are clones, I think they are subscripted, enlisted into the service of the Empire. Further I belive the clone wars was to settle the cloning question once and for all, and I think the jedis were victorius in the end. The war took its tall on the jedi`s though, this way Palpatine could declear himself emperor without too much challange towards his declaration. The jedis where still licking their wounds and Palpatine probably had a lot of support througout the senate, because they belived he would restore the Republic to the glory of the" good ol`days". Maybe the jedi`s had faith in him as well as a strong chancellor that would end the turmoil in the galaxy.
Just some of my thoughts about certain aspects of the SW saga.
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Aug 7th, 2001 07:53 PM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UKCo-Admin
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I agree, on the whole.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Aug 7th, 2001 08:10 PM |
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sand person no. 10
where are the other nine
Registered: Jun 2001
Location: West Midlands UK
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i just want to change the angle of this slightly, vader was dressed in black for obvious reasons, however the storm troopers were dressed in white, admittedly they had a black backdress, Luke was dressed in black also, therefore the whole thing about black and white hats falls apart, was there not some confussion when lucas first showed the film company his film because they at first couldn't work out who the bad guys were.
btw i hope the clones get their arses kicked and i hope that italien doctor who is trying to clone a human watches the film when the clones mess up and get killed by the jedi.
if you clone a cell of someone, does the memory of that peron cross over to the clone?
people shouldn't play GOD, they should only be GOD.
__________________
why would birds want to have sex with bees ??? surely the birds would get stung and the bees would get eaten?
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Aug 8th, 2001 12:01 AM |
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Ushgarak
Paladin
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UKCo-Admin
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White Hats/Black HAtrs is just a metaphor, it's not literal! In Star Wars the clear morality division is the Force, not costume. I hope I don;t have to prove the Western thing again...
The Luke wearing black thing is different, though., As I pointed out, the one greay area is the Skywalkers, wehich is why they are the main plot. Luke's black gear was meant to make him look a little more mean.
Like I said before, cloning is a very complex ethical issue; best skipped for the films, I guess.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
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Aug 8th, 2001 12:08 AM |
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