Architect/SOURCE

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JediHDM
At the...BEHEST of Ush, i start this topic about the SOURCE and the Architect... As i was saying, i think that the Architects room is the SOURCE, and that the door is like Neos choice, just as the camera zooming in on and then becoming his choice, When Neo opens the door, he is IN the SOURCE, but it is the Architects room. Neo must willingly, conciously make a choice to enter the SOURCE, knowing the consequences. i feel like im rambling, so i will stop there, and allow for comments...

HexSintax
but maybe he is led to believe that is the source, therefore, telling morpheus and the crew that the prophecy was wrong...it may not be the true source, just a stop on the road that leads to the source

JediHDM
no, NEO is told that entering the door to his right will lead to the SOURCE, and Neo figures out that, the Architect is basically using the anomaly to continue the Matrix, he is using the ONE...the ONE is supposed to fight for the humans, but it ends up that he is just the pawn of the Matrix, and THAT is why the prophecy is wrong.

HexSintax
ohhh, ok, sorry, i get what youre saying now....im not basshing you, but could you quote the prophecy for me and tell me what is untrue? again im not basshing you, i really would like to know....

JediHDM
oh man...i coulda said it until you asked for it...alright, i gotta check the movie...
"after he died, the Oracle prophesized his return, and that his coming would hail the destruction of the matrix, end the war, bring freedom for his people."

the prophecy is untrue because, like Neo says "the One was never meant to end anything"...now, there are two interpretations to this (the prophecy), either there is ONE, neo, who is meant to end the war, the matrix whereas the other ONES failed, or that the anomaly, the ONE is not meant to be an end to the war, to the matrix, it is just used by the machines to CONTINUE, rather than END, the matrix...this is what Neo was refering to, when he said the one was never meant to end anything

Ushgarak
The obvious interpretation is the second.

JediHDM
exactly, however, it makes you wonder...they dont always take the "wide path", so...we should keep all possibilities open for now.

ITALIAN926
Not following you Jedi. Youre saying that the room is simply the source, yet you confirm that the Architech told him that the door to thr right will lead to the source?

JediHDM
ok, you know how, each screen shows one of NEO's possible choices, and when Neo makes a choice, it zooms in onto a screen and becomes a part of the screen? well, im saying that the right door is like that, when Neo opens up the door, he is pulled through it and ends up in the same room. The SOURCE.

ITALIAN926
Im just gonna stay lost ! hahaha

I really have no clue.

If every time, Neo was to open the door in the right, he'd end up in the same room.. over and over. Are you saying his only choice was the door to the left , or else he'd never get out !!?! lmao

JediHDM
no, im saying that, Neo must, conciously, knowing the consequences, choose to enter the SOURCE. Neo must know the truth, and he must willingly accept to restart the matrix, thus, when he goes through the right door, he is brought back into the room, however, it is different, because NEO knew the choice, and made it. Then the code is removed and the original is put in its place, and Neo goes through the left door to select from the matrix 23 individuals...

Metamorphisis
We already know what the source that they refer to is, it was in Neo's conversation with the Oracle in Reloaded:

Oracle:...and when it does a program can choose to hide here or return to the source.
Neo: The machine mainframe.
Oracle: Yes. Where you must go. Where the path of The One ends.

So, the source would be the root level of the central machine computer system. So the room itself could not be the source - in this sense at least. But it is stated (as Omega informed me) that in ENTER THE MATRIX the Oracle says that Neo's mind touched the source and this is the reason for his coma. Also, the architect says that he is the one who designed the matrix, so he is the source of the programming for that world - which Neo does interact with. (see my posts in the Best evidence thread if you haven't already)

Jedi is right. The prophecy is definitely false. The quote from the movie helps Neo realize this when he realizes that she is the Matrix's "Mother." She and the Keymaker never actually say that they are helping the resistance, but rather that "we are all here to do what we are all here to do." Which is to layout the path for "the One" to follow in order to promote the continuation of the matrix.

So is the architect the source? Of the programming writes, yes, but not the root access that was refereed to. Neither is his room for that matter, I think that has to be a construct outside of the matrix program itself. (again see my posts in Best evidence if you aren't familiar with this argument. stick out tongue)

forumcrew
metamorphisis might be the smartest newbie ive seen yet

MC Mike
That's an interesting theory...

Really. smile

MC Mike
(The Jedi one, not the noob comment)

ITALIAN926
I dont think I'll understand this.

One of the doors leads to the source * rebuilding of Zion with the 23 individuals...
the other door leads back to the Matrix and Trinity and the destruction of Zion with no chance to rebuild.

Neo chooses the door to the Matrix and was threatened that he'd be responsible for the extinction of every human being on the planet.


Now what youre saying isnt clear to me. Neo didnt choose the rebuilding door with the 23 people.

forumcrew
right.. but the oracle says neos mind touched the source.. so howd he touch the source wihtout taking the door to the right? thats what this is about italian

Metamorphisis
forum

Thnx for the...errr...compliment? big grin Appreciated, just keep in mind - I'm only new to this forum!! LoL messed

ITALIAN926
OK, so at the end of the movie Neo and Morpheus are debating why theres still a war. They believed going to the source (the room) would end the war and the prophesy would come true. If Neo chose the OTHER door, this would in fact be true... he WOULD have went to the source... and the war would be over...even if temporary. Zion wouldve been destroyed and the whole cycle starts over for another 100 years.

forumcrew
"after he died, the Oracle prophesized his return, and that his coming would hail the destruction of the matrix, end the war, bring freedom for his people."
thats the prophecy italian...
so it wouldnt come true.. the matrix wouldnt eb destroyed.. the one touching the source was the end of the cycle of control.. starting the cycle over not ending the war and fullfilling the prophecy

Metamorphisis
I think that Neo touched the source by being granted what we know as super-user or root permissions on the matrix system. This happened when Neo left the matrix when he visited the architect.

How Neo left the matrix in a consolidated summery:

When Neo used the key the keymaker gave him, he exited the program of the matrix, but not the machine's computer network. Think of it like the internet and a unix server:

root at console access --> root at network access --> shell access with root permissions --> network user interface with extended permissions --> network user interface

The people inside the matrix are at user level. Any reprogramming of the matrix does not affect them because the program is running on a buffer allowing for real time reprogramming.

Neo gained extended permissions to control the behavior of the matrix in M1 when he realized that the machines could not kill him inside the matrix unless he believed they could. He can move as fast as they do because his mind is limited only by how fast his neurons fire, not by the limitations of physics.

By unlocking the door to visit the architect Neo, in effect, exited the matrix program in his user session. That would be like telnetting to port 71 on a webserver, crashing it causing it to reboot giving you full root permissions. You can manipulate at the root level but you are not at the root level.

This is as far as we've reached in the first two movies. Neo opted to return to the matrix, instead of trying to gain full root access. Perhaps he feels there is a better way to gain root? Or maybe he is going to attempt to gain console access??

ITALIAN926
The oracle is a program written by the machine world. Why would the machines prophesize an end to the war then?? Maybe simply to help motivate the one to do whats he's meant to do. Im thinking the prophesy was a lie, to guide the one down his path, but might ironically come true the 6th time around.

morgan01
the prophecy is true... its just twisted... the oracle said to end the war... she never stated that the humans would win. whatever u want to call it war of the matrix 6 is going to end by neo touching the source it will be over. then matrix war 7 will start and the prophecy will be given again. also the matrix is reloaded which means matrix 6 ends and over 100 years im sure that destructed could be a word that the humans believed rather than something else. the prophecy is true depending how you look at it through the machines eyes it is true the war ends and the matrix ( the 6th one ) is destroyed. what i believe is happening is neo's written path of being "the one" has ended but he is now starting a new path and is going to attempt to end the war and win for humans which was never prophesied

ITALIAN926
Morgan. I refered to it as a lie bc of the "bring freedom for his people" portion.

morgan01
I was replying to that sorry italian

Metamorphisis
I don't think it could be anything but a lie. The war never ends, it just finds new recruits to fight it. The one born inside is only an anomaly so he's bound to be born again - thus the reason he is ever able to prophesize that he will be born again! And no body is every really free, it's just another control.

morgan01
the machines are to perfect to lie... i don't think they are lieing... the war is not the same war it is a different war with different humans fighting it. each time the different humans could choose to fight in different styles and so on and so on. the prophecy says and "end to the war" the war for those people is over and then a new war beings with new people. the people who die in zion see the end to there war its over

Metamorphisis
The machines are to perfect to lie? LoL Are we watching the same movie? The entire premise is that everything they believe is a lie! For more info read Descartes book Meditations. It's a book of philosophy that the matrix has much to do with and is quoted on whatisthematrix-com in their philosophy section. Deception is their perfect tool because it keeps us at bay.

forumcrew
the prophecy is false plain and simple.. a statement cant be true if it isnt 100% true.. the prophecy can be beant around and parts are true but the base line is that it was a lie

icon
perhaps you guys are missing something obvious (pardon my absence, btw). perhaps the prophecy hasn't been completed.... yet. it says that neo touching the source will HAIL the end of the war, and the freedom of the people. Not that it would happen immediately. wink

Metamorphisis
icon

True, but then you have to believe that the Oracle is completely unaware of what happens when you visit the architect - which would disclude her as the mother, for one.

Second, the architect explains the purpose of Neo being there, and how the whole scenario is based upon the prediction that one would sacrifce a few for the whole since that's what the fight is all about to begin with.

Now I think that we've determined that Neo has, indeed, touched the source. I also think that, from the Oracle's avoidence of stating that she is helping, and implying that she is just a form of control by only ever saying "We are all here to do what we are all here to do." - it should be safe to assume that she is the mother of the matrix. She's been around since the beginning, and she's helping lead Neo to create a new "beginning." The previous anomalies would have led the people they released to her in hopes that they could save the race from the matrix at some point. She is also the only intuitive program we've me.

But the other side of your theory can work with mine...(please read my other posts, I don't wanna explain that all again!! blink ) All of the previous anomalies never took the door Neo did, so it is possible that Neo has more capabilities because of this.

We shall see in 6 days 7 hours and 45 minutes. stick out tongue

forumcrew
the prophecy meant then.. but we can look at it like this... the prophecy is different and it was for THE ONE not each anomaly.. where neo is an anomaly like the others he is the THE ONE who ends the war and fullfils the prophecy.. which like icon said may still occur..

forumcrew
**** i dont believe i just wrote that... the prophecy cant be fullfilled.. because the matrix will not be destroyed.. he may free his people and free people in the matrix from control... which destroys the idea of the matrix but doesnt destroy the matrix itself

Metamorphisis
forum

Now you're going back and forth! stick out tongue Anything's possible, but the prophecy would be the same for each anomaly if it were a system of control, which is strongly suggested in reloaded. I don't see any other way around that problem. The only thing different this time is the door that the anomaly chooses, which could make all the difference. Otherwise - there is nothing to suggest that Neo is any different than any other one of the anomalies. Even the Merovingian comments on surviving Neo's predecessors - which implies that they all went through this before.

forumcrew
neo is different though.. weve seen he is.. the prophecy is the same for the other ones.. they just didnt fullfill it because they were like woah i should save eveyrone.. but keanu was like **** u machines im really going to save everyone

Metamorphisis
Isn't that what I just said? All the one's before him made the opposite choice of what he did, believing it would lead to their extinction if they did. That is the only difference. Only, Neo doesn't know if he can save them, only that the other way has not worked for possibly 600 years or more (he is the 6th, 100 years between each...)

brandonbeyond
The prophecy is true just not complete. He was meant to each the source and has.. now that he is there he has taken what was needed from the source and will return to the matrix to end the war. that is why he had that power to feel the sentinels at the end of reloaded. all the other "ones" were to attached to the human race to do what neo is doing. he doesn't care about the humans, he cares about trinity and will do whatever he needs to do to save her life. neo completely understood what the kfc guy was talking about (which i still haven't despite seeing the movie a good 20 times. no lie).the prophecy was true for both the machines and teh humans... for machines they start it all over and the war ends, no one remembers there was a war to begin with so thats why the war ends.. for the humans, neo goes back with new powers to kick smith and sentinel ass... the prophecy is true to both but one. never do you hear smith talking about the prophecy. you hear the oracle speaking about it cause she while still apart of the matrix is her own person...

and i just want to say that all i wrote above makes no sense to me... i was just writting whatever hit me first.. no one be mad.. just tossing in my two cents...

::runs off quickly::

JediHDM
Meta> the Architects room could be the virtual representation of the SOURCE, not necessarily anywhere near it, but it is possible that by entering the room itself, Neo was GIVEN admin access, but he was distracted.

and i stated on the first page that there are two ways to take the prophecy, one, the most obvious, being false, but the other, being that Neo is the ONE, the only anomaly, meant to end the war, which we think to be true. and, forum, we dont know what the prophecy was in any of the other matrices...

Ushgarak
Italian, bacially this is a conceptual discussion about what 'entering the Source' really is, so I think yuor confusion is because you are taking it literaly.

Meta, again, your explanations are interesting in of themselves but I think they only make sense to people that already understand you, if you see what I mean! Hence the continued confusion.

Anyway, the motives of the Oracle are a huge variable but it is not at all unlikely that she is still a good guy hoping to doing something more than just act as a part of the system of control; I would expand on that but it is not that relevant to the subject.

I think we can safely assume the Prophecy was in previous Matrices even though we have no direct proof. After all, the theme that it is all happening 'just like before' is strong.

I still like to take simpler explanations where possible; I do not know where the Architect's room was- clearly outside the main body of the Matrix- but I do not think it was the Soruce in any fashion; I believe Neo brushes the Source by simple proximity.

ITALIAN926
Someoen explain to me why Neo was given this choice anyway. Had he only one door to walk though, the Matrix would have been reloaded like the previous 5 times.

Ushgarak
It doesn't work like that. They can't trick him- he has to make the choice. The doors are as much symbolic as they are literal.

burlyman

tshirt

ITALIAN926
Or man and machine stop the war and live with each other. Neo's talk with the councilor may be a pretty straight forward hint that this is how the story will end. In order to survive, man needs machine and machine needs man. Given the current atmosphere, this is completely true.

Metamorphisis
Jedi

Don't confuse the Architect as the source that they make reference to in the movie, and the source of the program. The Oracle states that Neo is correct that the source is the Machine Mainframe. I simply have stated that the Architect program, being the one to program the matrix, was the source of the matrix- from that point of view. However, he is not the source refered to in the movie.

I do think that Neo's visiting him has giving him super-user rights on the Machine Mainframe, and I think we are finding this out from the end of Reloaded and into Revo. He is, apparently, still some how connected to the matrix, even when out. That is how he was able to dream about what happens to Trinity in the very beginning of Reloaded, and then at the end, with root permissions on the system (if he is some how still connected) he was able to destroy the setinals.

Ushgarak
LoL -- It's not the first time that I've been told that. I've been dubbed the anomaly in my group of friends because of that same reason! But, understanding my reasoning, I'm glad you find it interesting. big grin

-------------------------------------------------------------

I think we have to assume that the prophecy was nothing but a form of control. Neo has followed everything the Oracle said with out question. Just as the Merovingian pointed out when he was discussing the reason they came to him for the Keymaker and sent them back to her. He knew that the reason they wanted the Keymaker, and that the Keymakers purpose was not for what they thought it was at all:

Merovingian: Oh yes, this is true, the Keymaker of course. But this is not a reason, this is not a why. The keymaker himself, his very nature is a means, it is not an end. So to look for him is to be looking for a means to do - what?

Neo: You know the answer to that question.

Merovingian: But do you? You think you do but you do not. You are here because you were sent here, you were told to come here and then you obeyed. (Laughs) It is of course the way of all things. You see, there is only one constant, one universal it is the only real truth - causality. Action, reation. Cause and effect.

He's telling them that they do not know why they are here, but he does. He knows that the Keymaker is not the means to end the war. And then the Keymaker was expecting Neo -- expecting the anomaly. This is because they "...are all here to do what we are all here to do." It's stated a few times in various ways.

They prophecy never intended to be the end, but they had to risk the possibility that the anomaly would choose to go back to the Matrix as Neo did - and risk him going back with root permissions on their system.

This post kinda leads into an interesting theory I found - I'm going to post in a new thread about the Merovingian being the embodiement of a previous anomaly! If anyone's interested....

JediHDM
tshirt> yes, i have, as i have stated the same thing multiple times in this and other threads.

Im not saying my theory is correct, i'm just throwing an idea out there to be thought upon, and expounded, or, if need be, thrown out. I do not think that the Archies room is the LITERAL Source, however, it is possible that the digital image of the Source is the Archies room, and that it is, Just as burly brought up, a sort of "heaven", above everything, not really having a "place", just there...

burlyman
did you read my pile of BS What the f**k?

JediHDM
i read what YOU wrote, cause i've already read the rest of it...

burlyman
huh OK

JediHDM
i already know what is in the italics, i have read/know it already...i just skimmed the paragraph to know what it is refering to, then looked at your comments...

burlyman
i no u do bunny <--What the f**k?

JediHDM
i love bunnies, and cookies, and dancing produce...except, i only eat cookies, i watch the others...

bunny bunny bunny
bunny bunny bunny

burlyman
Happy Dance bunny bunny Happy Dance

MC Mike
Someone should make a cookie smile that moves...

Until then,

bunny bunny bunny Happy Dance Happy Dance Happy Dance

burlyman
if we are saying that archies room is heaven
that the room keym died in would be a transport..
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f42/t12152.html
that might be how it is connected to mobil ave (limbo)
and how he mananged to exit the building

clavis9495
Neo says in the end of reloaded that he just knows that in 24hours Zion would be destroyed so my guess is that they left us out on something that happend in between (from the point he took the right *mmm right something to do with god perhaps* door)

clavis9495
sorry guys I didn't read the 2nd and 3rd page!

clavis9495
gosh u smart burly confused

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