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"Too sure of themselves they are, even the older more experience ones"

In episode II Yoda makes this comment about how the younger Jedi's are to arrogant, but also referring to the older ones. If you tie it all together Yoda was right the Jedi's where all too sure of themselves. In EP.1 Qui-Gon was sure that young anakin wasn't dangerous and his future wasn't cloudy(he was wrong). In EP.VI Obi-Wan told Luke that he was sure he could instruct Anakin better then Yoda(he was wrong). Anakin was way to sure of himself in EP.II believing he was already ahead of every Jedi(he was wrong). Luke was sure in EP.V he could save Han and Lea despite Yoda and Obi-Wan comments(he was wrong). So I ask what Jedi or Jedi's are going to be to full of themselves in EP.III?

My money's on Windu, he's gonna be way to sure that he can take out sidious by himself and is gonna pay big time

"Anakin was way to sure of himself in EP.II believing he was already ahead of every Jedi(he was wrong). Luke was sure in EP.V he could save Han and Lea despite Yoda and Obi-Wan comments(he was wrong). So I ask what Jedi or Jedi's are going to be to full of themselves in EP.III?"

they both were right... ani is ahead of alot of the jedi because he is more powerful, and luke did save han and leia, well not han , but leia and then payed the price by getting his hand whaked off.


but i would imagine mace being a little over confident and then getting his black ass whooped. i dont understand how and why the jedi have survived for millenia being this stupid.

I think your on the right track. Although I don't think he could have been referring to any future mistakes, ie. Luke. I know nothing about Mace or how is taken out. But I would say that he already appears over confident. I see that he will die not because of his over confidence but because he is just flat out beating by skill.

Luke wasnt sure about that in Episode V. But he said he HAD to go, no matter what yoda said

I think your right Space. Although we need to separate confidence and cockiness. I think it's OK to have confidence, but with that should come humbleness. It causes problems if you get cocky, which is how I see some of the Jedi.

HOW did Luke save anyone in ESB? His presence didn't change anything to help them out. Lando got them free, without Luke's help

OK first off, when Yoda said that he was talking very specifically about OB1. He was referring to how "sure" OB1 was that Ani couldnt handle his own mission. Basically it was Yoda's way of saying, "STFU and know your place in the pecking order." And that he should give his padawan some just dues and the respect that he deserves.

Secondly, Leia, Lando, and Chewie, saved Luke...not the other way around. I remember Leia saying go back and Lando catching Luke as his powerless body fell to the Falcon.

Mace is also clouded by anger, which is why he goes after Palpatine. I mean if you found out the head of the governement was the sworn enemy of the Jedi, would you not rush into battle and trust the force would be with you?

Well, Mace was suspicious all along, so I'm sure it won't come as a complete shock.

Yeah, Luke did nothing in Cloud City except learn that Vader was his father and get his hand chopped off. Like Spear said, he didn't save Leia or anyone else, that was Lando's doing. Everything would've been fine had Luke not run off chasing visions. Perhaps you need to watch the movie again?

who should watch it again?

Luke distracted Vader thus allowing the others to escape.

i dont think mace is angry. look at his face in the trailer. the shot where he lifts his saber up, he looks determined, not angry. the other shot where he swings his saber, hes just caught up in the battle.

"Qui-Gon was sure that young anakin wasn't dangerous and his future wasn't cloudy(he was wrong)."

Untrue! When making theory it is as well to be accurate. Qui-Gon did NOT say his future was not cloudy. On the contrary, Qui-Gon said it WAS cloudy, as opposed to definitely dangerous. As GL says, Qui-Gon was ultimately right.

" Luke was sure in EP.V he could save Han and Lea despite Yoda and Obi-Wan comments(he was wrong)."

His going was not the 100% smart thing to do- but people often forget something VERY important. If Luke had not gone, R2 would not have gone, and without R2, no escape. So in fact, Luke did achieve- simply at personal cost.

'too sure of themselves'

having no real enemy to fight against, they would get too sure of themselves. if you actually think about it, spending hundreds of years without battling it out, except in training, the Jedi never really had a proper enemy and thus it slackened their humble self and enforced their mentality into thinking that they were actually better.
but better than what ? what sort of peacekeeping did the Jedi do in those years they thought they had extnguished the sith ? Mind tricks on people not to sell death sticks or not to steal ?
in those years they had forgotten who their real enemy was by underestimating it , and they had forgotten what the force meant.
In the clone wars i would expect them to have brushed up their techniques.

i heard Mace gets a surprise in the office of sidious, and doesnt die cause of a weaker mind.

The Jedi did their basic job in those years- bringing peace and justice to the Republic. You shouldn't sell them too short.

The Jedi didn't just fight against the Sith, they kept disputes and stuff from breaking out in the various star systems and acting as diplomats and ambassadors. Think about Episode 1 when Vallorum sent Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to negotiate with the Trade Federation, they were ambassadors. They weren't intending to fight the Sith.

But I get what you mean about the whole "having no one to fight" theory.

The bottom line is the Revenge of The Sith that has seen their downfall. Peace and Justice involves defence. They did not see to sharpen offensive manouvres (and maintain them) by assuming greater dangers for the galaxy.

Your assumption there is that the Jedi fail purely because they are somehow incompetent. Whilst some failure is inevitable in the given scenario, the important bit is that the Sith really did their job right. But there can be no grounds for complaint, from what I see, of the Jedi's conduct in the intervening time.

precisly, because they assumed they were extinct

Yeah but they had other jobs than just fighting the Sith.

well in that case someone will have to explain to me why the heck are there so many Jedi and yet it takes only 2 sith (master 7 apprentice) to bring them down.

so is it possible that 2 vs. so many win against all possible odds ?
as ush says the sith were better than the Jedi

the sith also had millions of clone troopers - in case you forgot? they didnt just go out and take on the whole jedi order with just 2 sith.

( i meant not 2 sith vs the whole jedi order saber to saber)

Yeah, there are "so many Jedi" as CGC put it because there are A TON of star systems to PROTECT. So naturally there'd be a lot of PROTECTORS to do some PROTECTING. They want people with Force sensitivity to put that ability to good use so they train 'em so they can keep up with all the star systems and Jedi dying from old age and stuff like that.

the clones are just part of an episode in the long years of the galaxy. as far as i know there were always ONLY 2 sith vs. the Jedi order, and these sith were former jedi with the exception of Darth Maul who was forged by the hatred energies of the sith.

too sure of themselves indeed they were as they assumed in numbers and not in strategy.

that sounds like a good explanation

Ush,
your a mod, please give us clear english

Well see, the Jedi thought the Sith were too extinct. I don't think the "too sure of themselves..." was referring to dealing with the Sith. It just had to do with younger (and older) Jedi were thinking that they were better than they were at doing things like solving problems, dueling, and basic Jedi duties. They were thinking (like Anakin) that they were always right and that they knew best for everyone.

yes u r righ about that ; i was thinking of Yoda's quote in episode I when he said that they were blind for not seeing the new enemy (or something along those lines)

i think youre missing my point. you said, 2 vs so many against all possible odds.

then i said, they had the clones with them.

so, it is not against all possible odds when they have an entire army devoted to killing the jedi. half the jedi would have died from fighting on worlds against the confederacy before the clones turned bad.

i got your point ; but i was thinking in terms of millenia, not just these episodes. something they call *whispers silently* EU.

oh, ok. i thought you meant specifically how did 2 sith defeat the whole jedi order.

The reason why they failed was because the sith trained in the jedi temple in secret so they probibley new everything that was going on.

It is also known that the sith were fallen jedi (with the exception of Maul correct me if im wrong) so knowledge of both sides of the force favours them. does anyone know what was Sidious's name when he was a Jedi ?

Sidous was never a jedi. The Jedi would know that if Palps was once a jedi and now just a chancellor...no, never. Not all sith have to be fallen Jedi. Thats just "working smarter, not harder", on the sith's part. Why take all the time out to go FIND someone who's strong with the force, and then train, when they can just take their pick of Jedi who they can sense are impatient or overly emotional?

you would have to be right on that ;

as with regards why are thre only 2 sith, the SW databank says that :

What about yoda being to sure of hem self.

"The reason why they failed was because the sith trained in the jedi temple in secret so they probibley new everything that was going on."

and be able to erase kamino.....

The only reason the Sith were better (organized) in the prequels is that they only had to watch over eachother, 1 master on 1 apprentice!
It is the will of the force that the dark side is growing and clouding the light side, and that's where the prophecy of the one...comes in.
There are lots of Jedi with their own capacities and flaws, old and young, I think Yoda refers to the Jedi in common!
Being too sure possibly has something to do with denial....Windu; "Count Dooku whas once a Jedi Knight....he couldn't assasinate anyone"....only one of the many "too sures"!
I think the Jedi are affraid they are f****d, they said it themselves. Windu;"I think it is time we inform the senate, our ability to use the force is diminished".
Yoda said it many times; "....fear is the path to the Dark side...".
The dark side is the stronger side in the time of the Prequels, the light side gets clouded, thus...the Jedi are becoming victims of their own system against the Dark Side.....they are in some ways AFFRAID!
And that's why the "too sure" becomes a flaw more and more common
among Jedi.....the Force is toying with them and the Sith(dark side) know this!
I believe Yoda has foreseen all of this and helplessly tries to bump the sense in the ones close to him...
That's why he has the suspicious look all of the time, he tries to find out what's going on!
Well.......this is only a short note of how I feel about the whole thing, don't want you people to get bored.

Remember though as Yoda said "hard to see the dark side is..."

Wayne...

NO, listen. When Yoda said that,(too sure of themselves, even the older....) he was talking about OB1 TO OB1. OB1 was saying that he was sure Anakin couldnt handle his own mission, and Yoda was basically saying, everything youre saying about your padawan, youre doing yourself,show yor padawan respect and trust him.

".....1 master on 1 apprentice!"


laugh!


i agree with that subjekt, thats eactly what i thought when i saw the film. he was saying "DUDE! you think that your padawan is becoming cocky?!!?! look at yourself you fool and how you cant even train him right you blind idiot!"

THANK YOU....finally. you can tell by the look he gave OB1 and then how OB1 tried to dismiss it and start talking to mace......OB1 got that "hot" feeling you get when you get caught doing something or someone calls you out and you get nervous....i know you know that "hot" feeling

that was not the first time he gave such a look as if saying "Hey what do you mean about that "

remeber in TPM when Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan were in front of the Jedi council, and Obi-Wan was saying that he would train the boy ?

Obi-Wan gave a smile when the council said that He will not be trained.

QUI-GON : I will train him, then. I take Anakin as my Padawan learner.

OBI-WAN reacts with surprise. ANAKIN watches with interest.

and......

ANAKIN watches as QUI-GON and OBI-WAN exchange angry looks.

Obi-Wan isn't suffering from arrogance with Anakin. He more than anyone else is aware of the problems with him. But Yoda is basically reminding Obi-Wan that the process is already in motion, and was so from the time he promised Qui-Gon... now Anakin's being trained, there is no use in holding back in using him- and use him they will have to, if he is to fulfil the Prophecy.

It is unfair to decry the Jedi for being so many when the Sith are only two; the Sith have the easier job by far because it is far harder to protect than to destroy, and there are many many means the Sith can employ to overcome the Jedi- and as has been pointed out, the Clones do just that. Fact is, the Sith are always basically more dangerous than the Jedi because they are not bound- by laws, or by morals. Jedi always act within boundaries. But this same lack of moderaiton also dooms the Sith because they will destroy themsevles.

So having two Sith is actually them at their most dangerous... so really it should be no surprise that two Sith were able to finally achieve with many more Sith before them had never done... because that was the most likely way they were going to be able to do it.

It's an even match, and the Sith win.

I think Yoda's comments simply bely his worries- because most Jedi are thinking that everything is going to be alright. Yoda knows it isn't and that at this current point he has no solution.

In fact, Yoda has already made his error in not sussing out about the Clone Troopers. But that was Sidious' plan- play for and got.

^ i like this guy's explanation; it has refelcted what i was thinking but was so hard to put in writing

so basically Obi-Wan was too sure of himself by assmuning that he could train anakin to be a Jedi (noticing the promise). Having said that the other Jedi would get too sure of themselves by assuming that IF Obi-Wan could train a youth with a high midi-chlorian count (and Obi-Wan began training him when he was a Jedi Knight NOT a Master) could they could reach other, greater capabilities ?

i thought he should be talking about himself when he said that the jedi are too sure of themselves

Well, kinda- Obi-Wan already knows he is out of his depth and said so. But as I say, Yoda and Mace know it is a done deal now- all they can do is try and make the best of it; that is why Anakin was sent out solo.

"....i know you know that "hot" feeling "

:

ob1 knows that ani is out of control, if he had trained a more realistic jedi than he would have succeeded in his mastership, he knows that there is nothing that he can do at this point with ani, its ani's choice and obi has done everythin he could untill he realizes that he must destroy him because he wants the universe to be controled by the sith.

well if they knew at the point when Ani had to take Padme back to Naboo, then they deserve everyhthing they get. If the 3 most powerful jedi, besides Anakin, all know that Ani is too far gone already then they need to take extensive actions to make sure he doesnt do anything that could negativly affect them, NOT send him away on his own where he can do as he pleases. Thats juststupid, and if you all are right that they already know when the three are talking...then i cant wait to see Anakin slaughter every last one of them


And space, whats with the " " face? was that for me?

it was palpatines decision to have him be his body gaurd, i dont know if palpy controls the councils decisions but im sure if he wants it that theyll give it to them.

subjekt that was the wrong smilie i meant to put a because i though you were hitting on me, you know, being fresh.