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This will be a ongoing vs project first up Lightheavies then Heavyweights . Unlike many vs this is UFC style two combatants in a octagon. And now for the rules the fight can only end in death or knockout only fighting skill and brute power and Heart. Only intelligent answer need apply you get one shot to answer and ONLY one reply to another comment made by another so Think before you answer Only one shot. All answer will be judge by Me who ever comes up with the best fight scenario answer wins. There will be Three fights in each Divension winner of this discussion has a shot at the Lightheavy Champion Belt and Bragging RIghts to all in this forum. The winner of each lightheavy weight fight Will go toe to toe in the championship fight . So there is alot at stake here Ladies Make your comments count Each fight will be open for Three days to give all A shot. Lets get Started.... FIRST UP......... Batman vs Captain America....... This starts now...

48 hours left

ufc is ****in awesome man go diego sanchez for fighting for the contract

Do the characters get to use their weapons?

no weapons just fist to cuffs

Cap is too much stronger and more agile. Batman will try to use his superior martial arts techniques, but most of them will be blocked. Essentially Batmans blows will hurt him more than they hurts Cap. With no toolbelt, Cap will easily physically overpower Batman.

Would Batman and Cap be pretty much strikers?

Captain America has been getting shanked on this forum and by fans in general. It should end now. He has decades of experience (he fought in WW2, for Chrissake, unless we're using different Caps). Bruce's martial arts training may be more varied and diverse, but Captain America just leverages a lot of good old wrestling, boxing, and similar American commando-style martial arts. He also knows judo and has undoubtedly picked up a few tricks.

You then add on the fact that Cappy is superhuman. He's faster, stronger, and more endurant. That means Batman has to play a duck-and-hide game, avoiding blows and getting little strikes that cumulatively bring the big guy down. All it takes is a successful grapple and Cappy throws Batman around like a rag doll till the admittedly incomprehensibly tough Caped Crusader falls unconscious.

Yea Caps got the advantage since he's stronger than bats. He'd eventually overpower him.

No hiding, they're in a ring.

The problem with UFC style is medics can end the matches based on injury. There's no way to predict if one character will get off a lucky shot and break a vein or another character will sprain their elbow doing a haymaker or what.

Cube, I disagree, Cap is peak 800lbs,
Batman is near peak close to 600lbs, that small amount of difference is nearly inconcequential, for Batmans SUPERIOR H2H combat will overcome Captian.

You may say "well cap has more fighting experience" and I'd say nope, Cap was froze and thawed, he's roughly the same experience level as Batman.

Batman is faster and more agile (ever see cap swing like spiderman fron grapple hooks and things? no)
.
Also, Batmans 127 masterd forms of unarmed combat means this is a done deal.

Batman wins by a choke hold or limb lock or pressure points.

Even I know how cap would try to start this fight, he'd go into this wrestling style.
Right?
Straight for the legs, trying to take Bats legs out from under him.
Not gonna work.

Batman can lift 600lbs? That means he can lift the front end of a car over his head, no sweat. Batman only weighs about 225lbs. Unless Bruce has been using some hardcore roids recently, he isn't that strong.

At any rate, that's still a 200 pound difference. Try fighting someone that can lift 200 pounds more than you, who is an equally adept fighter, (Cap's a level seven in every book. He knows almost every form of hand to hand combat.) It's very difficult.

Cap is faster, and more agile as well.

Captain America is an olympic level gymnast/athlete. He would obviously be faster, since his leg muscles are far more developed. His reflexes are enhanced as well. No, Captain America does not swing from hooks, or webs. I've never seen Batman perform gymnastic feats like Cap either. Batman certainly is nowhere near as agile as Spiderman, if that is what you intend to imply. Swinging from a rope requires little agility. Dodging superspeed sttacks does.

Captain America is hardly a wrestler. He's an American-style Boxer first.

Batman will never be able to get a choke hold on Cap. Cap is too much stronger.

Olympic level gymnast/athlete? I'll give you that,
but so is Bats also, Caps heavy body (strong legs + huge muscles equal heavy) will slow him down.
He isnt more agile or faster than Bats. (I wasnt implying Bats to SM)
Never seen Batman perform gymnastic feats???? Seriously, c'mon, the guy is on DD level in gymnastic abilities.
As for the wrestling, I thought it was obvious how worthless boxing is in the octagon.
Boxing, in the big O gets you KILLED...i.e Tyson wouldnt last 30 seconds.

About fighting people who are stronger, well, remember Royce Gracie? He weighed 170lbs(he benched 200lbs) and always fought 300lb boxers, streetboxers, Kick boxers and the like(who normally benched 400-500lbs) and never lost, he had a draw once because he broke a finger accidently, he always won because of his arm locks and leg locks and joint locks, as will Bats.
Capts lactic acid builds up slower than Bats, that's HUGE but it isnt enough.
I'm not a Batfan, Cap is the man, but he is dead without his shield.

Cappy is apparently trained as an American style supersoldier - that means judo (a wrestling art, check out MD) and boxing. Either way, he has the superior attributes to do it.

Who relies more on gadgets, Captain or Batman? Just think for a moment. You'd then start thinking about who's more reliant on his gadgets. That in turns makes me think Captain takes it.

Does everyone forget that Captain America had a supersoldier operation? I'm starting to think Marvel should just make Captain America like Amalgam's Super Soldier and be done with it. (And why does Captain Britain get friggin Excalibur?)

lol i didnt read the rules.

Originally posted by ArekExcelsior2
Cappy is apparently trained as an American style supersoldier - that means judo (a wrestling art, check out MD) and boxing. Either way, he has the superior attributes to do it.

Who relies more on gadgets, Captain or Batman? Just think for a moment. You'd then start thinking about who's more reliant on his gadgets. That in turns makes me think Captain takes it.

Does everyone forget that Captain America had a supersoldier operation? I'm starting to think Marvel should just make Captain America like Amalgam's Super Soldier and be done with it. (And why does Captain Britain get friggin Excalibur?)

Exactly, Judo is acceptable in the big O, boxing is not and will get you killed.

Thats why I said cap would start with his wrestling style.

Superior attributes?
Indeed he is superior to normal people, Batman isnt normal, he trains 5 hours a day(ill concied to slightly superior, but nothing that makes a difference).

Who relies on gadgets more? Hm.

Cap NEVER leaves without his shield, EVER.

Batman is the same with his gadgets, so they are the same in that aspect.

Except a shield isn't the same as being reliant on gadgets for ranged combat, transportation... I mean, Jesus, the man used Batskates. Batskates. One item does not a gadget whore make. A utility belt does.

Again, since this is melee combat, a "slight difference" conceded is no such thing. If someone has even half a second better reaction time than you, that means that they dodge almost all of your hits and you lose. Seriously compare yourself with someone who can lift "only" 200 pounds more than you. That's the difference between a pencil neck and a football player. Very slight differences matter in hand to hand combat.

I concieded to his strength and duribility being slightly superior, nothing else.
Gadgets are gadgets, batman just has more.

Hey are we supposed to only answer once? if so then ignore this.

Yeah, looking at Cappy's stats holistically, in my humble opinion he's actually pretty damn superhuman. At the very least, he is better than any Olympic athlete in every relevant physical respect. Batman may have an edge in variety of technique, but I just think tight technical performance and sheer physical advantage in every relevant respect (not just because of training but because of the project he was in) seals the deal. Especially given that he can play a waiting game and let Batman tire himself out.

Batman never goes anywhere without a beltful of gadgets. Cap is much faster than Batman. Captain America only weighs 30 more pounds than Batman, and Captain America has virtually no body fat. Being bigger does not necessarily mean being slower. Muscles are what make people fast. Who do you think is faster, Batman or Hulk? Hulk of course. His leg muscles are too much stronger. He'd dust Batman. The same holds true for anyone else with superhuman strength. In human physiology, leg strength = speed.

Captain America is much stronger than Batman. There is no way in hell a 210 pound human can lift 600lbs. No way in hell. That's nearly three times his body weight. Batman's strength is in the 200-350 pound range, maximum.

Captain America is indeed Superhuman. The super-soldier serum accounts for this. There is no way any human, no matter how hard they train, can lift nearly four times their body weight.

If Captain America decides to wrestle, or better yet, use American Kick-boxing, (his usual fighting style,) He will overpower Batman.

We do have to distinguish between raw speed (i.e. how fast your muscles can accelerate your body) and what people typically mean when they say "speed". Real speed in combat isn't just how fast you can run or even your reflexes, but a complex of positioning, muscle power, subconscious conditioning, control and technique (eliminating extraneous motions, for example), clarity of mind and purpose, etc. etc. In that sense, Batman may have edges in some aspects, but he definitely loses elsewhere. Folks, there's just not much you can do if someone runs circles around you and batters you senseless. The only possible edge is that Batman has martial arts training that includes an incredible variation of techniques whereas Cappy may be a little more limited, but I don't think knowing the crane stance will help Batman in this case.

Originally posted by long pig

About fighting people who are stronger, well, remember Royce Gracie? He weighed 170lbs(he benched 200lbs) and always fought 300lb boxers, streetboxers, Kick boxers and the like(who normally benched 400-500lbs) and never lost,

He did?? *cries* I had a chance to be trained by him also, and I missed it cause I didn't have a way to get there. WHY WHY WHY! I coulda been so much better probably then I am now.

Anyways..Its not about size, and strength when it comes to a fight like this I've taken out guys twice my size, and strength. Its basically how much you can take, and about how skilled you are, and how good you are at getting out of stuff. The best person I know is like smaller then me, and fast.

I'm being ganged up upon here!
Wouldnt have it any other way.

Want an example of someone who is outmatched speed-strength but has superior h2h and wins?
Elektra vs Wolverine
her strenght was like 200 maybe...his is 800 you know the rest.

batmans skill, speed and agility will win this fight.
Batman IMO is more driven to win a fight.
Cap is just cocky.

"Who do you think is faster, Batman or Hulk? Hulk of course. His leg muscles are too much stronger. He'd dust Batman. The same holds true for anyone else with superhuman strength. In human physiology, leg strength = speed."

Well, hulk can lift over a 100 tons with his legs and only weighs a ton or so which means...c'mon its obvious. That isnt a very good example.

Here is a good one, Who is faster? The Rock or a profesional Track and Field competitor? Of course Bulky muscle makes you slower.

Wrestling and american kickboxing are two of the weakest forms of h2h combat in the big O.
a wrestler or a kickboxer cant do shit when the kick they threw is grabbed and ankle locked. SNAP.

Batman wins through wither pressure points, or joint breaks.

Cap is by no means an easy guy to beat and this could go either way but I'd bet for Batman, even if i dont like him.

Originally posted by Kento
He did?? *cries* I had a chance to be trained by him also, and I missed it cause I didn't have a way to get there. WHY WHY WHY! I coulda been so much better probably then I am now.

Anyways..Its not about size, and strength when it comes to a fight like this I've taken out guys twice my size, and strength. Its basically how much you can take, and about how skilled you are, and how good you are at getting out of stuff. The best person I know is like smaller then me, and fast.
He lost ONCE by accidently breaking his toe and finger.
He was the toughest most skilled fighter ive ever seen....bruce lee? hah!
Too bad he retired, he is still teaching but not fighting anymore.
The whole gracie family are basically brazlian judo mix masters....they amaze me.

Originally posted by long pig
He lost ONCE by accidently breaking his toe and finger.
He was the toughest most skilled fighter ive ever seen....bruce lee? hah!
Too bad he retired, he is still teaching but not fighting anymore.
The whole gracie family are basically brazlian judo mix masters....they amaze me.

Man I wish I hadn't of lost my way to the thing he was teaching. My sensei got him to do a teaching thing, and I coulda been taught by him...I had the money, and everything but just a month before he was coming I lost my ride to get there.

I never even heard of him until my sensei said he was famous...I never knew he was so good.

Really? His father was more famous in the MA community than he was.
early 50's His Grandfather kick started the mix judo KB MA style in south america and made its way up to america.
people hype bruce lee, bruce has nothing on the Gracie family.

aw, im sorry to hear that, It'd been something I'da killed for too!

*laughs* The biggest MA people I know are Chuck Norris, Bruce Lee, Jet Li, Jackie Chan, Ernie Reyes, and Ernie Reyes Jr. The last one is about my favorite.

I'd have killed for it before I knew how great he was cause I live grappling stuff.

Me too, its crazy how easy you can take someone out with a simple ankle lock.

Yea, and how easy it would be to break somebody's ankle to. That's what I worried about with ankle locks *laughs* Cause person I would grapple would try to out last the pain until time ran out with ankle locks, and I'm not good at judging how much I can put on something before it gets to bad, and the person's a friend of mine so I'd stop the lock, and go to choke holds.

Long_pig and cosmic cube great answers so far its between you two. 24 hours left for this fight .... Still time for someone to step up and challenge Long_pig and Cosmic cube.... And please fellas and new comers READ THE RULES I let a few slide but no more once again great job Guys..

I must say this However fight can only end in Knockout or Death as the rules stated. And cosmic its is possible powerlift pro ken ross benched 722 at a bodyweight of 215 in 2001 I myself have benched as much as 612 at a body weight of 256 pounds...12 hours left so far a very good debate aLSO REMEMBER THIS tANK ABBOTT KEEPING WITH mY THEME one of the most powerful natural human beings who has bench 635 pounds curled 175 pound dumbells and one of the strongest strikers ever has a record of I believe 11 and 14 in the octagon SKILL beats one Dimensional fighters all the time Either by tiring out from throwing haymakers or getting caught by shots from being sloppy. You dont have to be the Strongest but if you are skilled with strength and heart and brains most of the time you win..

arek exelsior2 after reading your post you have put your self in a threeway dance with long pig and cosmic...I will give eachone of you one more comment on this fight to decide since you guys did so well this time with the RULES Knockout or Death....

Let's look at the scenarios and the characters.

Batman: An ordinary human. He may have access to conditioning regimens that ordinary individuals don't, but so does Captain America. He may spend all of his day working out, but so does Captain America. He also heavily relies on a full utility belt of gadgets. That means he's used to having gadgets for transportation, melee combat, distraction, etc. It's like the classic "ninja vs. samurai" fight, and Batman's the ninja. He has been trained by Lady Shiva and numerous other great masters of martial arts, meaning he may have ten to twenty forms under his belt.

Captain: Captain America is at worst a peak human, but looking at Marvel's ratings, he's a lot better. This means that he has conditioning from a cell of the US government with unlimited funds as well as a miraculous serum. He has taken hits that would cripple Batman. He thus has edges in the following areas: Fatigue resistance and endurance (remember that he literally does NOT get tired - the only upper limit is how much caloric capacity he has in him), reflexes, muscular power (particularly explosive muscular power), bone and muscle strength and mass (meaning Batman does less real damage per hit and is more exhausted), keenness of perception (meaning he can detect moments of weakness such as during stance shifts and react more quickly), and quickness of mind (in other words, his brain actually processes things faster in combat). He is a grand master of common American forms, including judo/wrestling and boxing/kickboxing, as well as anything else he may have picked up in the story arcs. He is used to having a shield, which means he may make a few mistakes with blocking. He also has decades of experience in context of the Avengers and World War II.

Simply comparing the two, we see that Batman is overpowered in a few key respects:

1) Raw physical capacity, in all of its forms
2) Reliance on gadgets (Cappy at best will be a little slow to block because of his shield, whereas Batman will be less prepared in almost every respect)
3) Arguably, experience

His only edge is his broader range of martial arts experience.

The battle is simply UFC-style ring combat. Captain America and Batman edge closer to each other, looking for weakness in stance or intention. Eventually, Captain America sees something Batman can't and rushes in. Batman may evade and get a hit, but Captain will undoubtedly salvage a punishing glancing blow. This will continue until Batman has been beaten down and surprised enough (since Captain America won't be getting harmed by any of this) to miss an essential clue and get put into a lock. That's all she wrote.

The super-serum not only increased Capatin America's
strength, but his agility and reflexes as well, which, when
combines with all the subsequent training and fighting,
means that he will have a bodily advantage over Batman.

Where batman will have the advantage will be in fighting
skills.

Another, not touched upon, but may or may not be
important, is psychology. Both men are not really killers,
but where as Captain America is pretty much a human
Superman, that is a boy-scout, Batman is very much
willing to do anything and everything shory of murder.


Still, in the end, after a long tough fight, with maybe
Batman getting in a few good shots, including even a
couple of cheap shots (he's more willing to fight dirty),
Captain America's superior speed, agility, reflexes,
and durabiltiy (including stamina) overwhelm Batman,
sort of like Bane.

Boy scout beats play-boy.

I don't think he'll kill him though.

Even though my fight senario does not count I will anyway just for the hell of it.. This fight will be utter hell two of the most respected men in the universe. Both have Tremendous heart, Skill goes to batman strenght to cap its not how long you fight its the quality and the ability to adapt and make changes with that said heres my sceanrio.... Start of the fight they feel each other out cap explodes landing big shots bats comes back short uppercuts getting inside they go toe to toe cap devastating power punishing but then bats makes an adjustment becoming a counter fighter circling setting traps using his elusiveness his defensive dodging caps oncoming bombs waiting a frustrated one dimensional fighter that cap is loads up a shot to finish a battered batman. And then it happens caps unleashes a right cross from hell batman side steps counters with a Muy Tai knee right on the button cap drops to his knee batman then finish it with a streaight right KNocking out cap fight over Winner Batman... Thats how I see it Batman Like I said they make that adjustment hes to smart to just go toe to toe even though he started out like that cap never seen it coming Like Roy jones said after his last loss by knockout its the punch or kick you dont see that hurts but that how I see it.... It would be one hell of a fight...

6 hours left

Though it is not widely known, Captain America is also a martial arts master. He has mastered an unknown multitude of fighting styles, and in "TOHOTMU Avengers:" Cap is listed as a master of all forms of combat. He has fought in several wars, totally unarmed, save his shield (he's not bulletproof.) His hand to hand combat skills are at least eqivilant to Batman's.

Benching isn't the only way to lift, or display strength. Cap can lift 800 pounds over his head. Can Batman do the same?

Another category Batman is outclassed in is endurance. Captain America is in constantly peak human condition. That's more than Batman can say. Though he may be in excellent physical shape, his condition fluctuates, as do all humans. The Super Soldier serum prevents any of this from occuring in Captain America's body. His muscle will deteriorate faster than Captain America. He will build up lactic acid faster than Captain America. He will take more damage from attacks than Captain America. Captain America will certainly last much longer than Batman.

Captain America is solid muscle. Solid muscle will not weigh you down: muscles support themselves. Captain America is far faster than any olympic sprinter, and he is more agile and balanced than any gymnast or acrobat.

Captain America, like Batman, is a brilliant strategist. He will strategize this battle with unfailing accuracy, just as he has done in the past.

In every category save intelligence, Captain America meets or exceedes Batman. As a fighter, Captain America is all that Batman is, and more.

After reviewing everyones argument Cosmic cube wins it it was close disscussion for all particpants I want to thank all for contributing Cosmic cube wins this fight and will advance to championship fight in three days. King_Burger and long_pig, Arek_excelsior has a shot at joining him IF you can win the Next fight. Thank you all once again and Remember Come strong or not at all...

This thread is closed...

have we ever seen any comic characters ever use any real grappling in the comic books?