Dark Phoenix vs The Beyonder vs Eternity

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armandovalles
Who wins?

Lord S
Eternity...because he is the embodiment of life in the universe. He and Death are the top dogs as far as cosmic beings go, (not counting LT, of course).

The Beyonder was a faker, and DP is more at Galactus level...maybe higher maybe lower.

armandovalles
what do u mean the beyonder was a faker? he was like so uberly-powerful that he could like transcend time and sh*t, how could he be a faker?

armandovalles
oh and by the way, u said eternity and death are the top dogs besides LT, but what about Infinity, isnt she like the same thing as eternity?

GalacticStorm
"Eternity...because he is the embodiment of life in the universe. He and Death are the top dogs as far as cosmic beings go, (not counting LT, of course).

The Beyonder was a faker, and DP is more at Galactus level...maybe higher maybe lower."

Although i hate to admit it its probably eternity then Dark Phoenix. Id still argue that Phoenix could win but thats another state of jean and thats for another thread. Lord S, Death is a high ranking cosmic being but like galactus her/its status is higher than its actual power is. Death holds no power over the phoenix whatsoever. They have had many conversations in classic xmen more specifically issue 42 and throughout the years (more recently jean was shown phoenixes importance in xmen forever) where death has told phoenix that she is a transitionary force that embodies both life and death. So yeah eternity, dark phoenix and then beyonder but if u make it normal phoenix then i can write u a novel long argument why eternity would go down!! lol

armandovalles
well u still havent answered my question, what about Infinity? isnt she like the same as Eternity when it comes to power and ranking.

GalacticStorm
The beyonder was later found out to be just half of a cosmic cube who had gained sentience. The cosmic cube beings are in power below the abstract beings. The other cosmic cube beings, kubik and shaper told him this i believe.

armandovalles
well he's not a faker, he's just not a real-life, abstract being, but he still lives, and is still, from what i have seen, to be one of if not the most powerful being in the universe.

GalacticStorm
his powers were found to be mostly illusion based. Just like the cosmic cubes that hes only half of. He is below the abstract beings in power. Eternity and dark phoenix would beat him

armandovalles
oh, now, what about Infinity? isnt she Eternity's equal when it comes to ranking and powers?

GalacticStorm
Yeah. Eternitys life and all the planets and constellations. Infinitys his sibling who is the space in between

stevusmagnus
The Beyonder no contest. He was his own univese, unknown by ours. He had such power that he showed Rachel (Phoenix II) what it would be like to have the full powe of the Phoenix (thus he is mightier than Phoenix). He also was on the verge of destroying our universe. He may be more powerful than LT!

kgkg
The Beyonder was a faker.
Dark Phoenix? not even the phoenix force can match eternity.
Eternity knows all, see all, a collective mind of all the sentient being that have ever lived(LMAO) . He is a living Universe if he dies so does the rest of the universe. He is all powerful as well.

It is clear that the Marvel ranking follow something like this
LT , Eternity , Infinity , Death

so it goes like this.
1.) Eternity
2.) Dark phoenix
3.) Beyonder

GalacticStorm
"The Beyonder no contest. He was his own univese, unknown by ours. He had such power that he showed Rachel (Phoenix II) what it would be like to have the full powe of the Phoenix (thus he is mightier than Phoenix). He also was on the verge of destroying our universe. He may be more powerful than LT!"

Did u not read my post? The beyonder was retconned by marvel. Those feats were written over and it was later found out that he was merely half of a cosmic cube gone sentient and also like the cosmic cubes that his powers were mostly ILLUSION BASED!!

leonidas
infinity and oblivion are 2 abstracts that little is known about. not even sure they've appeared in any books aside from that small run in quasar. infinity DID seem a lot like eternity. must be a difference but i don't know what. i think beyonder actually confronted eternity somewhere but i don't think eternity did anything. eternity doesn't fight - at least from what i've seen. i'm also pretty sure beyonder wasted the phoenix force somewhere. if galactus was proven to be no where CLOSE to the beyonder, DP wouldn't do any better. bad writing or not.

GalacticStorm
"Dark Phoenix? not even the phoenix force can match eternity.
Eternity knows all , see all , a collective mind of all the centien being that have ever lived(LMAO) . He is a living Universe if he dies so does the rest of the universe. He is all powerful as well.

It is clear that the Marvel ranking follow something like this
LT , Eternity , Infinity , Death"

Eternity embodies life in the physical sense in terms of matter and the planets, infinity the space in-between and death is well death lol. The phoenix force embodies both life and death and is the transitionary force between these abstracts. The passion, the life force which empowers and gives that spark of life to the physical that is eternity. This was explained in xmen forever and also in classic xmen 42. That is also the reason why when galactus tried to break the link between rachel and the force the stars in the universe started fading

GalacticStorm
" i'm also pretty sure beyonder wasted the phoenix force somewhere. if galactus was proven to be no where CLOSE to the beyonder, DP wouldn't do any better. bad writing or not."

one more time i am going to use this word. RETCON!!!!! Beyonder bested galactus in the secret wars yet it was later revealed that he is clearly below him and the other abstracts. Beyonder went up against phoenix 2 - Rachel Summers not the phoenix force. MASSIVE DIFFERENCE!! Either way him and his power was retconned. The phoenix being more powerful than galactus also isnt even in debate. He has been put in his place twice by rachel and at the end of the dark phoenix saga the watcher declares the phoenix force the most powerful force in the universe. Since the time that was written LT has been created and possibly other abstracts who marvel might declare are higher up in the hierarchy however galactus was very much around. The shiar also laugh off galactus in comparison to dark phoenix in the dark phoenix saga.

Lord S
Eternity and Infinity are two sides of the same coin. I think Eternity is more powerful...or it may just be my male bias. I've heard of Oblivion, but never seen him/her. From what I've heard, Death and Oblivion are two sides of another coin. Opposite of Eternity/Infinity.

So the hierarchy is supposedly, it's like this:

1. LT
2. Eternity/Death
3. Infinity/Oblivion
4. Chaos/Order
5. Celestials

After that you have Skyfathers, Galactus, Pheonix, Titan, other various cosmic puppets.

GalacticStorm
"Eternity and Infinity are two sides of the same coin. I think Eternity is being more powerful. I've heard of Oblivion, but never seen him/her. From what I've heard, Death and Oblivion are two sides of another coin. Opposite of Eternity/Infinity.

So the hierarchy is supposedly, it's like this:

1. LT
2. Eternity/Death
3. Infinity/Oblivion
4. Chaos/Order
5. Celestials

After that you have Skyfathers, Galactus, Pheonix, Titan, other various cosmic puppets."


I never step into a debate without knowing my facts. You're talking like i dont actually know about the hierarchy in marvel. Lord S. I have just told u about the phoenix forces standing in the marvel universe as stated by the watcher, as stated by death and as shown from reading Xmen forever. It is fact. I really dont need to argue because i told u how it is and also gave u references. The phoenix who held tohether existence, not the universe, but the omniverse and reenergised the strands holding it 2gether under its own power and you for whatever reason are gonna put it on skyfather level? Hmmm. Like i said its in the comics. The phoenix is a transitionary force between life and death it embodies them both. In that list it belongs alongside eternity and death. Whether u like it or not its just how it is.

Lord S
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Whether u like it or not its just how it is. Why?

Because you said so?

You also believe that Storm can beat Dr. Doom, so I've seen your credibility.

kgkg
Phoenix force near Eternity i don't so.

my ranking
1.) TOAA
2. The Heart Of The Universe
3. Living Tribunal
4. The Infinity Gauntlet
5. Eternity/Infinity/Death
6. Oblivion
7. Phoenix Force
8. Master Order/Lord Chaos
7. High level Celestials
11. Galactus (Full power)/ Franklin Richards (full potential) / Phoenix Avatars

Phoenix is close to eternity

GalacticStorm
"Why?

Because you said so?

You also believe that Storm can beat Dr. Doom, so I've seen your credibility"

No its how it is Lord S because thats how it is in the comics. Thats what the watcher said, Deaths many concersations with Jean most notably in classic xmen, Xmen forever, Grant Morrisons recent Xmen run. Thats like the 3rd time ive stated why it is im saying what i am about the phoenix. The first time you just ignored what id said and still posted an inaccurate ranking because of your opinion on the subject. While your opinion like everyone elses on this forum is valued it doesnt outweigh whats actually laid out in the comics so sorry bro.

armandovalles
I think it should be this actually:

1) The Living Tribunal
2) TOAA
3) The Heart of the Universe
4) The Infinity Gauntlet
5) Eternity/ Infinity
6) Death/ Oblivion
7) Beyonder/ Franklin Richards
8) Master Order/ Lord Chaos
9) Surtur/ Some High-Level Celestials/ Phoenix Force
10) Galactus (Full-Power)/ Phoenix Avatars/ Cyttorak

GalacticStorm
Kg we went thru this with galactus vs the phoenix. It took like 2 months for me to get thru 2 u that i was right even though I backed up my claims and others who had read the same comics supported me. I was so relieved when u finely accepted what id said for the first time a few days ago. Now it looks like we're gonna have to start all over again!! Kg reread my posts. Ive included references. If you're that fussed then check them out for yourself but as with b4 i assure im right as you found to be the case yourself eventually

Lord S
Ok so if Phoenix is such an uber-powerful force, where was she was Thanos was wreaking havoc on the Marvel Universe...in both the Infinity Gauntlet saga, and in 'The End'?

Was she hiding in her nest?

GalacticStorm
As i said to LS your opinion is valued arm but that doesnt mean it outweighs whats actually stated and depicted in the comic books. Your list is very wrong

leonidas
the phoenix force is the embodiment of all the psychic energy of all the living beings in the universe. THIS universe (check the directory if you need to). eternity embodies the universe - living, non-living and everything in-between. the phoenix is powerful but it is not eternity. since galactus is the third part of the triangle with eternity and death, and is considered the 'randomness' that allows the universe to proceed in a non-static way, (check out surfer vol 3 #8-10??) galactus is said to be on the same level as eternity and death, hence above the PF. now, it just so happens galactus is also the worst written character in the history of marvel so EVERYONE (including the PF) has whooped him. in theory though, and at max power, galactus is . . . galactus!

'nuff said!

Lord S
Originally posted by armandovalles
I think it should be this actually:

1) The Living Tribunal
2) TOAA
3) The Heart of the Universe
4) The Infinity Gauntlet
5) Eternity/ Infinity
6) Death/ Oblivion
7) Beyonder/ Franklin Richards
8) Master Order/ Lord Chaos
9) Surtur/ Some High-Level Celestials/ Phoenix Force
10) Galactus (Full-Power)/ Phoenix Avatars/ Cyttorak You can't put LT above the Heart...it was the Heart that beat him.

armandovalles
i dont think so, i'm not sure about some of them but i know for a fact that the Living Tribunal is #1 and that the Phoenix Force is barely more-powerful than galactus, also Franklin Richards should be very high on that list cuz he can create his own universes just by thinking about them.

GalacticStorm
"Ok so if Phoenix is such an uber-powerful force, where was she was Thanos was wreaking havoc on the Marvel Universe...in both the Infinity Gauntlet saga, and in 'The End'?"

Where was galactus when the m'kraan crystal was threatening to blink out the omniverse? Where were the other abstracts? See it goes both ways. But like i said before take it from the mouth of the watcher and check up on the various other references i gave u. Im not saying the phoenix is more powerful than eternity, but it has been stated that it is integral to the universe, death has shown and stated it holds no power over the phoenix force and it was depicted in xmen forever to be the transitionary force that embodies them both. So make of that what u will.

hoorayforpeepee
jeepers...surtur above galactus? are you insane? and master order/lord chaos are easily the weakest abstracts.

GalacticStorm
"the phoenix force is the embodiment of all the psychic energy of all the living beings in the universe. THIS universe (check the directory if you need to). eternity embodies the universe - living, non-living and everything in-between. the phoenix is powerful but it is not eternity. since galactus is the third part of the triangle with eternity and death, and is considered the 'randomness' that allows the universe to proceed in a non-static way, (check out surfer vol 3 #8-10??) galactus is said to be on the same level as eternity and death, hence above the PF. now, it just so happens galactus is also the worst written character in the history of marvel so EVERYONE (including the PF) has whooped him. in theory though, and at max power, galactus is . . . galactus!

'nuff said!"

Kg had the same thought chain as u have just displayed. He was proved wrong by myself and others. Until u have checked out the references i gave u, you cant really continue to argue with me. All my references were from quite major sources so if u havent read them or have no knowledge of them then u cant debate wit me against the phoenix when you dont really know enough about the character. PM kg im sure he'll tell u all about it

GalacticStorm
"jeepers...surtur above galactus? are you insane? and master order/lord chaos are easily the weakest abstracts."

Thank u. Some1 sane has entered the debate

armandovalles
alright alright it appears i dont know much about cosmic beings like you do but i read TOAA's bio and he doesnt seem that powerful, he has never really done anything that would make him above the Living Tribunal or the Heart of the Universe. And Surtur was said to be one of the Most Powerful beings in any universe.

kgkg
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"the phoenix force is the embodiment of all the psychic energy of all the living beings in the universe. THIS universe (check the directory if you need to). eternity embodies the universe - living, non-living and everything in-between. the phoenix is powerful but it is not eternity. since galactus is the third part of the triangle with eternity and death, and is considered the 'randomness' that allows the universe to proceed in a non-static way, (check out surfer vol 3 #8-10??) galactus is said to be on the same level as eternity and death, hence above the PF. now, it just so happens galactus is also the worst written character in the history of marvel so EVERYONE (including the PF) has whooped him. in theory though, and at max power, galactus is . . . galactus!

'nuff said!"

Kg had the same thought chain as u have just displayed. He was proved wrong by myself and others. Until u have checked out the references i gave u, you cant really continue to argue with me. All my references were from quite major sources so if u havent read them or have no knowledge of them then u cant debate wit me against the phoenix when you dont really know enough about the character. PM kg im sure he'll tell u all about it

I never agreed with you .

I posted Beyonder's List you said phoenix force was too low.

I said it's true she is too low.

I never said phoenix force was Eternity's equal.

Again what's the comic title issue # ?
all of it.

So far you are basing it on what watcher said?

Watcher once said that Galactus was the strongest force in the universe. Guess he was wrong.

I will check it out what’s the Issue # title etc.? of these comics

GalacticStorm
Galactus is equal in status not power leo.

hoorayforpeepee
surtur is super powerful, but he was taken down by thor, odin, and loki handily enough. galactus would turn those dudes into cheese curds...

i have always thought that the phoenix force was on the same level as death, one slot below eternity/infinity.

toaa (he supplies LT with power)
LT
eternity/infinity
phoenix force/death
abraxas/oblivion

these are, in my mind, the top forces in marvel. following these guys are big g, celestials, other abstracts, etc.

GalacticStorm
"never said phoenix force was Eternity's equal.

Again what's the comic title issue # ?
all of it.

So far you are basing it on what watcher said?

Watcher once said that Galactus was the strongest force in the universe. Guess he was wrong.

I will check it out what’s the Issue # title etc.? of these comics"

I never said the phoenix force was more powerful than eternity. I never said you agreed with me on that. If u folllow properly what i said i was referring bk to the phoenix, galactus debates me and u have had in the past which has now been settled by myself and others. Phoenix force was shown to be a transitionary force between life and death. It is stated that it embodies both and that it is the passion of life and it draws its power from the psyches of all living beins in existence, however to have sentience it also draws on life energy from future generations as well which is why its work is done primarily through avatars.

GalacticStorm
"have always thought that the phoenix force was on the same level as death, one slot below eternity/infinity.

toaa (he supplies LT with power)
LT
eternity/infinity
phoenix force/death
abraxas/oblivion"

Thats basically how it was shown in xmen forever and death told jean the importance of the phoenix force and how death holds no power over it. Thsese things were also shown in grant morrisons run of xmen recently

kgkg
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
i'll accept that hooray.
lol that list is similar to mine.

GalacticStorm
not similar enough. Plus hoorays cooler than u.

leonidas
<<Until u have checked out the references i gave u, you cant really continue to argue with me.>>

sure i can. as i think has already been mentioned, the watcher also stated in an FF book early on that GALACTUS is the most powerful force in the universe. and since FF have been around longer than x-men, stands that IT is the more credible source. and in a SS issue, it is stated quite plainly that if galactus dies, the universe itself will end. if phoenix dies . . . well, so would this argument. phoenix is powerful. it is not (at least in theory) what galactus is. FF and SS. those are some pretty damn fine sources if i do say so myself.

hoorayforpeepee
the watcher is a much better source...all the dude does is observe everything in the universe

GalacticStorm
"sure i can. as i think has already been mentioned, the watcher also stated in an FF book early on that GALACTUS is the most powerful force in the universe. and since FF have been around longer than x-men, stands that IT is the more credible source. and in a SS issue, it is stated quite plainly that if galactus dies, the universe itself will end. if phoenix dies . . . well, so would this argument. phoenix is powerful. it is not (at least in theory) what galactus is. FF and SS. those are some pretty damn fine sources if i do say so myself."

Leo as you must know if u're an avid reader of comics. Marvel is always changing the hierarchy, always introducing some new uber-powerful being that tops the others. Some like the beyonder and galactus are somewhat downgraded after time. Others such as the phoenix force retain their power and status. The watcher said that in FF way before he said that in the dark phoenix saga. From what ive just said your reasoning on it being a more credible source isnt quite as sound as u might think. Galactus has died on many occassions also and Abraxas was let loose who in turn threatened to destroy the universe. Its possible that thats the extent of the big disaster that will befall the universe on his death. Its possible. Galactus tried to remove the phoenix from rachel and the universes stars started fading. See phoenix is shown as integral to. The transitionary force that embodies life and death. The phoenix also works as a doctor of the universe as shown in the GM run. Healing what needs to be healed(m'kraan) and "disinfecting" that which doesnt work and threatens the balance of the universe(d'bari and sublime)

kgkg
GalacticStorm

what are the issue number that say's the things you are talking about.(show the phoenix force power)

Watcher claimed that he was the Stongest in the Universe with Galactus??? lol

anyway what's the issue.

hoorayforpeepee
if it was the original beyonder, he would win though. pre-retconned beyonder was basically TOAA.

plus he had mad disco steez.

armandovalles
the beyonder from the 90's spidey TAS was definitely more powerful than anyone EVER in marvel or any universe for that matter.

kgkg
Originally posted by armandovalles
the beyonder from the 90's spidey TAS was definitely more powerful than anyone EVER in marvel or any universe for that matter.
even more than LT , eternity?

hoorayforpeepee
yeah. he punked eternity and LT, but then it was retconned, so that their defeat was only an illusion.

GalacticStorm
Kg. Check out the 6 issue xmen: forever series, classic xmen 8, 42 and 43 and also grant morrisons run on new xmen a year and a half ago. More specifically the "Here comes tommorrow" story arc.

This link also explains a lot about the phoenix especially that story arc i just told u about:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=336614&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=2

armandovalles
yea, Beyonder with the beard and fancy metal outfit and no pupils was the REAL BEYONDER, that guy was no joke, he could reck anyone!

leonidas
<<Leo as you must know if u're an avid reader of comics. Marvel is always changing the hierarchy, always introducing some new uber-powerful being that tops the others. Some like the beyonder and galactus are somewhat downgraded after time.>>

true, and the exact argument i would have used if i were you! damn . . . guess we'll simply agree to disagree. you obviously like phoenix (i was DID like the phoenix force) while i like galactus, hence my bias. i like the sense of history that surrounds galactus and given that he survived the death of his own universe, he's always been at or very near the top of my food chain. unfortunately he's one of those guys who gets beat often to prove that some new guy is powerful. shrugs. still doesn't change what he is - or should be. i said PF is powerful. i still contend it is not what galactus is, and is below eternity and far below (as every universe force must be) the LT.

as for the illusion bit - that was among the stupidest story arcs i'd ever read and was what amounted to a cop out by the writers. how the hell does he create an illusion of all that?? assinine. nowadays the beyonder is viewed as a 'minor omnipotent', which places him on the tier below galactus, the celestials eternity, death and LT. and below the PF.

leonheartmm
an original beyonder take em out anyday, but the cosmic cube 1 loses{actually come to think of it, even after beein retconned, the fact remains that the incomplete cosmic cube was able to fool eternity, galactus and the tribunal!}

kgkg
Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
yeah. he punked eternity and LT, but then it was retconned, so that their defeat was only an illusion.
i was talking about the cartoon Spiderman beyonder.

Cosmic Cube
Actually, Eternity is above the Phoenix Force. Eternity is not on par with Death.

GalacticStorm
Yeah thats cool. Im fine with that if its just a comparison of those two. However some of the others were lumping him/it together with death as well in the rankings which is why i started debating and stating the phoenixes status and position because death holds no power over the phoenix.

Xplosive
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"Eternity...because he is the embodiment of life in the universe. He and Death are the top dogs as far as cosmic beings go, (not counting LT, of course).

The Beyonder was a faker, and DP is more at Galactus level...maybe higher maybe lower."

Although i hate to admit it its probably eternity then Dark Phoenix. Id still argue that Phoenix could win but thats another state of jean and thats for another thread. Lord S, Death is a high ranking cosmic being but like galactus her/its status is higher than its actual power is. Death holds no power over the phoenix whatsoever. They have had many conversations in classic xmen more specifically issue 42 and throughout the years (more recently jean was shown phoenixes importance in xmen forever) where death has told phoenix that she is a transitionary force that embodies both life and death. So yeah eternity, dark phoenix and then beyonder but if u make it normal phoenix then i can write u a novel long argument why eternity would go down!! lol

If it be full PF powers, then it could maby take Eternity down (in pure destructive power, PF is above Eternity, Dark Phoenix), I don't think so.

Xplosive
Originally posted by armandovalles
i dont think so, i'm not sure about some of them but i know for a fact that the Living Tribunal is #1 and that the Phoenix Force is barely more-powerful than galactus, also Franklin Richards should be very high on that list cuz he can create his own universes just by thinking about them.

It's pretty funny you put LT above TOAA, LOL, and above HOTU who made out of LT a joke. You said you've read TOAA bio (dmaybe you are confues, maby you think TOAA Celestal). And it was TOAA who created LT. And LT said there is being that is byond himslef and that is TOAA.

Maestro
This thread is turned into a arguement over hierarchery positions, Lol.

And by the way Love/Hate are below Master Order and Chaos, and In-betweener is below them, with Eon and then the Vishanti.

kgkg
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Kg. Check out the 6 issue xmen: forever series, classic xmen 8, 42 and 43 and also grant morrisons run on new xmen a year and a half ago. More specifically the "Here comes tommorrow" story arc.

This link also explains a lot about the phoenix especially that story arc i just told u about:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=336614&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=2
I read few comics already.

She is more related to death.

"Later, Death appeared to the Phoenix Force, claiming it to be the product of power of all life yet unborn, and thus somewhat an agent of Death and abstract entity the likes of Eternity and Death. Death helped to convince the Force to leave its then-current avatar, Rachel Summers."
marvel directory.

so how does that make PF = eternity in power.

hoorayforpeepee
"abstract entity the likes of eternity and death"


read before you post, though i would still contest that eternity>PF>= DEATH

Beyonder
Eternity or Death would stomp the hell out of Phoenix Force full power or not. Eternity is the universe, Phoenix is just life.

hoorayforpeepee
death has no hold over phoenix force, which is why i put them on the same level...obviously, the PF could not affect death either.

Beyonder
Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
death has no hold over phoenix force, which is why i put them on the same level...obviously, the PF could not affect death either.

Phoenix isn't in the same league as Death. I highly doubt that Death doesn't hold on PF; however, not having a hold on someone doesn't mean their equal.

GalacticStorm
Beyonder try reading classic xmen 8, 42 and 43. Grant Morrisons run of new xmen and xmen: forever to see why ive said what i have and then rejoin the debate. Otherwise you cant really debate. The phoenix embodies life and death and is the transitionary force between them. Death holds no power over phoenix.

Beyonder
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Beyonder try reading classic xmen 8, 42 and 43. Grant Morrisons run of new xmen and xmen: forever to see why ive said what i have and then rejoin the debate. Otherwise you cant really debate. The phoenix embodies life and death and is the transitionary force between them. Death holds no power over phoenix.

Life unborn right? Destroying her would also end the universe and so on.

They're not equal. Eternity and Death are on the same level. It's been stated before. They are opposites of each other.

GalacticStorm
Yes and the phoenix is a transitionary force from one to the other. She embodies both. Read Xmen and forever and Eternity tells this to jean and clarifies phoenixes status. Death does the same thing in classic xmen.

GalacticStorm
Grant Morrison run clarifies the whole status and purpose of the phoenix so if u havent read that then i recommend it to u. If u havent read all of the comics im referring to you then you cant really debate about something u lack sufficient knowledge of.

leonheartmm
no no, the pheonix force{from my knowledge} is not the transitionary force between eternity and death, its the embodiement of all life and passion, YET UNBORN, its lower than eternity or death.

whirlysplat
There is a lot of beyonders The one from Secret Wars 2 is not the same as secret wars 1 then there was the beyonders who took counter earth away from the high evolutionary.

GalacticStorm
"no no, the pheonix force{from my knowledge"

U got it in one. From your knowledge. Ive given you the references check them out and you'll see im right. Im not just making it up its in the comics. The fact that people hav come in who have actually read the comics i said and supported me should tell u i havent made it up and its true.

GalacticStorm
Ive never once said phoenix is more powerful than eternity read the posts before your contribution and you'll find that out. But surely to debate properly u should hav done that anyway

FieryBalrog
Originally posted by leonheartmm
no no, the pheonix force{from my knowledge} is not the transitionary force between eternity and death, its the embodiement of all life and passion, YET UNBORN, its lower than eternity or death.

it might be both, but its definitely a transitionary force between life and death... this was stated in the comics...

Mider
if its the Original Beyonder He wins with out breaking a sweat if it snot then Eternity wins but then again i dont know Pheonix cant die at all and if She does She comes back. So its tough call. ill go with Eternity.

GalacticStorm
"its the Original Beyonder He wins with out breaking a sweat "

The galactus humbling beyonder of the secret wars never existed at such a power level it was all down to his illusion beased C cube powers and thats that. This battle is between eternity and phoenix. The outcome of that battle is debatable. I could argue for either one.

kgkg
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"its the Original Beyonder He wins with out breaking a sweat "

The galactus humbling beyonder of the secret wars never existed at such a power level it was all down to his illusion beased C cube powers and thats that. This battle is between eternity and phoenix. The outcome of that battle is debatable. I could argue for either one.
Eternity takes

- Beyonder is a fake (Cosmic cube).
- This is Dark Phoenix (not the Phoenix Force)
- Phoenix Force has never played any important role in Crisis that were huge (except in X-men).

IG, HOTU, Cubes etc but that's just that.

When Thanos absorbed everything he claimed that LT, Eternity and Infinity were the most resistant (powerful)

Phoenix Force is power of life than is yet unborn.

Eternity is the universe a collective mind of the sentient beings that has ever lived.

Phoenix Force is Close to his power and importance but I wouldn’t put her with Eternity/ Infinity.

tawon
Originally posted by kgkg
Phoenix force near Eternity i don't so.

my ranking
1.) TOAA
2. The Heart Of The Universe
3. Living Tribunal
4. The Infinity Gauntlet
5. Eternity/Infinity/Death
6. Oblivion
7. Phoenix Force
8. Master Order/Lord Chaos
7. High level Celestials
11. Galactus (Full power)/ Franklin Richards (full potential) / Phoenix Avatars

Phoenix is close to eternity

CaptainStoic
The Beyonder is more powerful on an abstract type of level, he can manipulate reality, which means that he can bend Etenity to his will, as well as depower Phoenix. He wiped out a universe in seconds and rewrote it.

Pepito
Classic Beyonder wins because he wins everything, Eternity wins if it's retconned Beyonder

boriquaking55
Agreed. Pre-retcon Beyonder wins. Eternity wins otherwise. Were not talking about Phoenix force or White Crown Phoenix or whatnot here.

pinksushi1
I am not so sure if Eternity can defeat the Phoenix Force itself.

Knowsbleed33
Beyonder.

Power Cosmic II
Eternity is the living embodiment of all that is, was, and ever will be. The PF is the life force in the cosmos. By implicit logic you can see that Eternity encompasses the PF because Eternity is both living and non-living (i.e., planets, stars, super novae, galaxies, objects of power, etc.) made living into 1 actual omnipotent body. And if you're going to argue that the PF draws power from all life and all future life, well Eternity is the living embodiment of the universe from a time aspect, hence his name, while his counterpart, Infinity, is the living embodiment of the universe from a space aspect.

galactusischere
"Wolds within Worlds, Dimensions folding into themselves,
Entire UniverseS being born, and collapsing into ruin,
and yet I sense that ALL this -- is but a fraction of what Eternity is,
the core, the Heart of Eternity's being ... here All Energy, All Matter, lies,

I will detonate Eternity's Heart --- triggering another Creation event,
Re-Birthing every being and thing in All the Universes"

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/721892/etpf1.jpg.html

616 Eternity is multi-versal according to this ^

Mr Master
^^ thumb up

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II

Eternity is the living embodiment of all that is, was, and ever will be. The PF is the life force in the cosmos. By implicit logic you can see that Eternity encompasses the PF because Eternity is both living and non-living (i.e., planets, stars, super novae, galaxies, objects of power, etc.) made living into 1 actual omnipotent body. And if you're going to argue that the PF draws power from all life and all future life, well Eternity is the living embodiment of the universe from a time aspect, hence his name, while his counterpart, Infinity, is the living embodiment of the universe from a space aspect.
thumb up

Pre-retcon Beyonder stomps.

That aside,

Eternity wins here,
Post-retcon Beyonder comes in second,
and the Phoenix Force is third.

Post-Retcon Beyonder granted Rachel Summers the full power of the previous Phoenix. (Jean)

Does anyone know what sustains the Phoenix Force?

Answer: The psyche of living beings. (without life, Phoenix is nothing)

Eternity nore Beyonder (pre or post) need life to exist.

pinksushi1
Why does Eternity defeat the Phoenix Force, Mr. Master?

galactusischere
That was Post Retcon Beyonder that gave Phoenix the full power of Phoenix?

Mr Master
Originally posted by pinksushi1

Why does Eternity defeat the Phoenix Force, Mr. Master?
Because Eternity is infinitely more powerful.
Originally posted by galactusischere

That was Post Retcon Beyonder that gave Phoenix the full power of Phoenix?
It was actually Pre-Retcon Beyonder,
but the Beyonder's retcon only affected certain aspects of his history,
giving Rachel that power was not one of them.

We know this because Rachel Summer's 2005 bio
still stamps Beyonder with the feat.

btw. Officially, post-retcon Beyonder is also given credit for erasing 616 Death. smile
In Mistress Death's 2006 Handbook bio.

Post-retcon Beyonder is even credited with threatening Eternity's existence.

This is because at some point, Post-Retcon Beyonder was actually empowered again,
not to his original levels, but above his Cube being levels it seems,
still below unrestricted Owen though.

pinksushi1
Again, the Phoenix Force has been stated to be multi-versal. Where does Eternity lie?

Mr Master
Originally posted by pinksushi1

Again, the Phoenix Force has been stated to be multi-versal.
Where?

And Phoenix has never created even a single universe,
nor has Phoenix ever destroyed a single universe outside of a 'What If' comic. laughing out loud

Heck, Phoenix has never even created a Galaxy.
Originally posted by pinksushi1

Where does Eternity lie?
Originally posted by galactusischere

"Wolds within Worlds, Dimensions folding into themselves,
Entire UniverseS being born, and collapsing into ruin,
and yet I sense that ALL this -- is but a fraction of what Eternity is,
the core, the Heart of Eternity's being ... here All Energy, All Matter, lies,

I will detonate Eternity's Heart --- triggering another Creation event,
Re-Birthing every being and thing in All the Universes"

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/721892/etpf1.jpg.html

smile

pinksushi1
LOL. Dude White Phoenix of the Crown held the Universe in her hands. Without stressing.

galactusischere
Mr.Master speaks about marvel cosmics. We listen, we learn.

pinksushi1
Read my posts please.

galactusischere
Your just repeating things over and over again in this thread, we all have seen those scans. Galactus does the same. Phoenix might be more powerful than Galactus but not his little brother.

pinksushi1
Eternity may be able to defeat Phoenix, but galactus can't. It would be a good fight though.

galactusischere
Exactly.

Eternity>Galactus/Phoenix.

Now you can say that Phoenix is more powerful than Galactus, and I can say that Galactus is more powerful than Phoenix due to fanboyism.

pinksushi1
No. Fanboyism is not becoming. Galactus needs to feed to re-energize himself. The Phoenix Force has never shown any such need.

Power Cosmic II
while true, outlast doesn't equate to out-gunned.

galactusischere
Galactus can always feed upon the Phoenix.

Power Cosmic II
if it's rachel summers, he can always come up with another huge cosmic revelation that washes over her like a tsunami, forcing her to run away and cry about her feelings on the matter

pinksushi1
Galactus feeds on planets. he can't feed on a cosmic entity that has indeterminable powers.

galactusischere
He ate Tiamut. Tiamut=the most powerful celestial to exist

Power Cosmic II
Galactus can feed on pocket dimensions...i dont see abstracts being out of the question. of course, in the comics he never would, as each abstract serces a purpose for the universe and that's all galactus is itnerested in, cosmic harmony.

pinksushi1
Who is to say that the Phoenix FOrce can't feed upon Galactus? Or that they cancel each other out?

galactusischere
You can't say. Though they would never fight to the death, unless they are being manipulated/controlled or Phoenix has a retarded host like Rachel.

Mr Master
Originally posted by pinksushi1

Dude White Phoenix of the Crown held the Universe in her hands. Without stressing.
That was a minituraized visualization of Reality 15104.
(or are we to believe that Giraud or Quentin can do the same since they were there?)

Laughable when I've seen both of them get owned by far less than universal powers)

Anyway ...

I have Uatu on panel doing the same thing with Reality 311,
and Kubik also held Post-retcon Beyonder's Universe in his hand when B was a half-Cube being,
other insatnces exist.

By the way, Eternity holds entire UniverseS (not just one) in his hand:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1582628_etisuni2copysh4.jpg

"Eternity is Time incarnated ...

When he raises a Hand which holds whole universeS withIN it,

Past Present and Future" ... ouch. smile

..................................................................................

pinksushi1
Well, neither of them can die. I just notice that Galactus' power gets depleted while Phoenix's does not.

That is the problem for Galactus here. Unless of course he can re charge on her energies. It would not hurt her though.

pinksushi1
Besides, Galactus needs a suit to contain his energies. What is PF rips it off.

OOps that sounded inappropriate.
LOL. Hot bird, eh?

Mr Master
Originally posted by pinksushi1

Besides, Galactus needs a suit to contain his energies. What is PF rips it off.

If she could do that, a Cosmos would billow out in her face curbstomping her.

pinksushi1
Nothing can curbstomp her since her powers are unlimited. Nothing has actually curbstomped the Phoenix FOrce. Except for Molecule Man, Beyonder, The One ABove All, Living Tribunal and Etnernity and Jaspers. That is it.

galactusischere
Jamie Braddock, HoM Wanda, someone with the IG, someone with the UN, the Nemesis, Abraxas, Alien Entity, Oblivion, Infinity, Death, and the 3 Infinites(maybe)

pinksushi1
Wanda has little control over her powers. Just lashed out once and never again. Proteus can defeat her. Jamie Braddock? Franklin can defeat him. No match for Jaspers, since he is insane.

Eternity vs. Infinity. WHo wins?

Mr Master
Originally posted by pinksushi1

Nothing can curbstomp her since her powers are unlimited. Nothing has actually curbstomped the Phoenix FOrce. Except for Molecule Man, Beyonder, The One ABove All, Living Tribunal and Etnernity and Jaspers. That is it.
The Phoenix Force (hostless) was stalemated by 6 heroes dude.

The Phoenix Force was blown into billions of pieces by Xorn with a planetary scale EMP. laughing out loud

The Phoenix Force was again shattered by a Shiar weapon for crying out loud.

The PF, while powerful, is very vulnerable my friend.

galactusischere
HoM wanda decimated and recreated the omniverse.
She made ETERNITY her *****, she warped GALACTUS etc.

Eternity wins.

pinksushi1
LOL. Magneto defeated Phoenix as well. But in my opinion that is PIS, With her abilities, it should not have happened.

Which 6 heroes?

Mr Master
Originally posted by pinksushi1

Wanda has little control over her powers.

Just lashed out once and never again. Proteus can defeat her.
I now know, you know nothing about HOM Wanda.

Proteus? ... laughing
Originally posted by pinksushi1

Eternity vs. Infinity. WHo wins?
They're equals, and they compliment each other.

galactusischere
he speaks the truth.

pinksushi1
LOL.

Just tell me who would win.

Galactus vs. The Phoenix Force. Both at full power and blood lusted.

I am too tired. LOL.

White Phoenix of the Crown is 99% of the PF, right?

pinksushi1
Actually don't laugh. In HOM it was stated that reality warpers can't hurt/harm each other.

galactusischere
Phoenix beats Galactus on certain circumstances, Galactus beats her on certain circumstances. There is no FP Galactus though.

But I like Galactus better so im going with him.

Mr Master
Originally posted by pinksushi1
LOL.

Just tell me who would win.

Galactus vs. The Phoenix Force. Both at full power and blood lusted.
We don't know what FP Galactus is,
but if it's something akin to the Balck Celestial arc Galactus,
that's omniversal power we're talking.

Because big G was going to eat everything.
(according to 3 separate Marvel titles - Avengers/FF/GOTG)
The term, "Omniverse" was literally stated.
Originally posted by pinksushi1

White Phoenix of the Crown is 99% of the PF, right?
100% ... Fully bonded, like when Galactus was going to kill both Rachel/PF,
since they were one and the same.

pinksushi1
Full power Galactus is Eternity.

When has galactus defeated Phoenix? Phoenix is the one who has defeated Galactus, or at least stalemated.

galactusischere
In an Excalibur comic. Rachel submitted to Galactus.

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by galactusischere
Tiamut=the most powerful celestial to exist

Que?

pinksushi1
So submitting and then defeating? That makes no sense. Do writers have any common sense?

galactusischere
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Que?
After Scathan of course.

LordGaynes
Well it seems many of you forget beyonder killed death!!! And yes he wad his own universe with the power of thought and Galactic is not in the conversation. Really I think the inconsistent power display is at fault because the beyonder was omnipotent at first then they scaled his power down!!

Hitman911
PR Beyonder Killed death....Brought Death Back.....Lowered his Power Level to fight Celestials with his bare hands........?? Illusions??? Killing Death is MORE then enough to prompt a response and visit from LT.....but he was SCARED!!!

TheLordofMurder
If we are talking Classic Beyonder, then this is spite; after reading the 1st page of this thread, Classic Beyonder is the version being used...

LordGaynes
The Beyonder was omnipotent but something happened
Although not native to this dimension, the Beyonder was one of the most powerful beings ever to exist in the Marvel Universe. In the original Secret Wars storyline, he was the be-all and end-all of his universe that took corporeal form to better understand the nature of human beings. After his creator, Jim Shooter, left Marvel, writer-editor Tom DeFalco, displeased with Shooter's tenure at Marvel, re-tooled the Beyonder and altered his origin. He was no longer omnipotent as many initially believed, being an incomplete Cosmic Cube, with less raw power and the same limitations of a complete cube. Nonetheless, he possessed vast psionic abilities allowing him to manipulate matter and energy at a cosmic level beyond all but the most powerful of cosmic entities.

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