Siding with the Sith

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palpy_666
It is my honest opinion, when Episode III comes out, a lot of us will begin to question the Jedi and their supposed monopoly on what is "right" and "wrong". I believe as we see Palpatine explain the Sith and their goals to Anakin that we will slightly begin to gain sympathy for old Palps and the Sith Order.

I believe Palpatine has a genuine case against the Jedi from what I've read in the graphic novel. Believe it or not, I've always found the Dark Side misunderstood and I've always sided with it.

What do you all think?

Ken Kenobi
I side with the Imperials and the Sith too. stick out tongue

My nickname is Imperial Boy.

From reading the novel, Palpatine had many great points. The only real reason he is a bad guy is because of the way he manipulates people and does them harm.

Captain REX
Yes indeed! That, and he wants to take over the galaxy and wipe out a whole Order of Jedi. stick out tongue

LandoSpeeder2
you changed your name Lance!

Ken Kenobi
Originally posted by LandoSpeeder2
you changed your name Lance!

I have no idea what you're talking about. whistle

palpy_666
Originally posted by Captain REX
Yes indeed! That, and he wants to take over the galaxy and wipe out a whole Order of Jedi. stick out tongue

True, BUT you must look at things from the Sith's perspective. To them, the Jedi Order is evil. I believe Palpatine genuinley wants to bring peace and justice to the galaxy in his own way, by forming it into a Monarchy. In a way, this is a good idea seeing that many democracies in our world have done us no justice at all. Anyways, in order for Palpatine to peacefully rule without any attempts at his life or threats of the destruction of his Empire, the Jedi MUST be eliminated. The Jedi would never understand the Sith's point of view. To them, the Sith are the enemy and their prime goal is to eliminate the Sith. That is why I believe Order 66 is vastly justified.

Prod
Originally posted by Ken Kenobi
I have no idea what you're talking about. whistle laughing out loud

U really did change your name??? laughing

Captain REX
Good point there, Palpy...of all the people to stand up for... stick out tongue

But yes, that makes good sense. Though, the term isn't Monarchy, it's Dictatorship.

palpy_666
Originally posted by Captain REX
Good point there, Palpy...of all the people to stand up for... stick out tongue

But yes, that makes good sense. Though, the term isn't Monarchy, it's Dictatorship.

Hmm... Well, in a way, a Monarchy is a dictatorship. Palpatine having Royal Guards, Imperial this and Imperial that, Empire and Emperor, these are terms associated with Monarchism.

tlbauerle
What the hell? Do we call you Lance? Do we call you Ken?

How about, "Your Modship?"

Jedi Priestess
I personally think the Jedi Council was pretty arrogant in their dealings.

Vanquish
I can't believe what I am reading here, this is lunacy. I'm not sure if any of you remember a little group of people called the Nazi's? They too wanted to bring "Peace and Order" to the world "in their own way." Unfortunetely, that required that everyone alive that opposes them MUST DIE !!! I see no peace and justice at all when the only way to gain it is to KILL EVERYONE opposed to your views.

The empire, led by Palpy and Vader, are out to kill everyone and everything that does not share their beleifs. The death star is designed for the sole purpose of mass destruction and death of all who oppose them. Anyone who says the Empire is justified in any way in what they are doing are either incredibly evil Mofo's, or have not learned a damn thing by our own "real world" tragedies associated with Groups of people thirsty for Power.

The Sith and everything they stand for are pure evil, no two ways about it. They don't debate, they don't reason, they don't negotiate, THEY KILL on a mass scale. They eliminate entire worlds with a click of a button.

palpy_666
Originally posted by Vanquish
I can't believe what I am reading here, this is lunacy. I'm not sure if any of you remember a little group of people called the Nazi's? They too wanted to bring "Peace and Order" to the world "in their own way." Unfortunetely, that required that everyone alive that opposes them MUST DIE !!! I see no peace and justice at all when the only way to gain it is to KILL EVERYONE opposed to your views.

The empire, led by Palpy and Vader, are out to kill everyone and everything that does not share their beleifs. The death star is designed for the sole purpose of mass destruction and death of all who oppose them. Anyone who says the Empire is justified in any way in what they are doing are either incredibly evil Mofo's, or have not learned a damn thing by our own "real world" tragedies associated with Groups of people thirsty for Power.

The Sith and everything they stand for are pure evil, no two ways about it. They don't debate, they don't reason, they don't negotiate, THEY KILL on a mass scale. They eliminate entire worlds with a click of a button.

I guess you can call me an incredibly evil mofo. lol.

But, this argument raises a good point. You state that Palpy and Vader are out to kill those who disagree with their viewpoint... Hmm.. Well, doesn't the Republic want the same thing? Think about it. The Seperatist's have their own perspective on things, but it is not what the Republic wants, and so the Republic goes after them.

Vanquish
No, at no time have the Jedi ever violently intervened in anything, even if it opposes their views. They are the keepers of the peace, and they mean it. They dispatch Jedi to resolve conflicts peacefully. Only if it is absolutely necessary do they actually draw lightsabers. It is impossible to draw any paralells at all between the Sith and the Jedi. They are polar opposites in almost every way.

tlbauerle
Originally posted by palpy_666
Hmm.. Well, doesn't the Republic want the same thing? Think about it. The Seperatist's have their own perspective on things, but it is not what the Republic wants, and so the Republic goes after them.

Yup...actually you can insert any real nation/ideology in either the Republic or Seperatist spot and you have a glimpse at the world's political state right now...

Remember there are heroes (and naturally corruption) on both sides.

Stefan Kojic
The difference is that the Sith do not care if they need to destroy countless systems until they destroy the rebels( I'm talking about Episode IV, V, VI), and the Jedi try to end the conflict with less casualties.

Vanquish
The Jedi's have NO natural corruption at all on their side. The only Jedi's that have ever commited evil acts are fallen jedi, or dark Jedi. They fall from the Jedi order, and are then capable of comitting the evils that a pure jedi could not. Dooku is an example. While he was a Jedi, i'm sure his heart was pure. Once his views strayed however, he became a dark Jedi because he now does not share the views of the pure Jedi's.

I'm not saying that former Jedi's aren't capable of evil things. In fact, quite the contrary. Many Jedi's have fallen from the order to become evil, and commit terrible acts of violence. However, for you to actually imply the Jedi have ever commited these acts, or are even capable of them is rediculous. They simply are not.

Jedi's are purely good, with no room for anything but. Siths are evil, with no good thoughts or compasion in them.

palpy_666
Originally posted by Stefan Kojic
The difference is that the Sith do not care if they need to destroy countless systems until they destroy the rebels( I'm talking about Episode IV, V, VI), and the Jedi try to end the conflict with less casualties.

And look what happened to the Jedi.. lol

Sometimes "aggressive negotiations" are the only solution to extreme conflicts. If it wasn't for Vader switching back to the light side, then the Empire would've continued to grow stronger and stronger and would've lasted thousands of years.

War brings peace. Agression fuels results.

Ushgarak
This is ridiculous. Star Wars is a simple morality tale of good and evil. The Jedi are good and the Sith evil. Any attempt to complicate that has missed the point of Star Wars entirely.

Vanquish
Well you just did a 180 there Palpy_666

Ushgarak
Originally posted by palpy_666
I guess you can call me an incredibly evil mofo. lol.

But, this argument raises a good point. You state that Palpy and Vader are out to kill those who disagree with their viewpoint... Hmm.. Well, doesn't the Republic want the same thing? Think about it. The Seperatist's have their own perspective on things, but it is not what the Republic wants, and so the Republic goes after them.

That's just ignoring the films.

The Republic wouldn't have done a damn thing to the Seperatists- had the Seperatists not been planning invasion! The Confederacy was built to aggressviely destroy the Republic- that was the point!

palpy_666
Originally posted by Ushgarak
This is ridiculous. Star Wars is a simple morality tale of good and evil. The Jedi are good and the Sith evil. Any attempt to complicate that has missed the point of Star Wars entirely.

Just wait then till you hear Palpatine comment on this very topic when he is speaking with Anakin in the Opera house.

"Good" and "Evil" do not exist. Light and Dark are more appropriate terms. Star Wars is not about morality. It is about Light vs. Dark. Not everyone agrees with the Jedi or what people call "the good guys".

tlbauerle
Originally posted by Vanquish
The Jedi's have NO natural corruption at all on their side. The only Jedi's that have ever commited evil acts are fallen jedi, or dark Jedi. They fall from the Jedi order, and are then capable of comitting the evils that a pure jedi could not. Dooku is an example. While he was a Jedi, i'm sure his heart was pure. Once his views strayed however, he became a dark Jedi because he now does not share the views of the pure Jedi's.

I'm not saying that former Jedi's aren't capable of evil things. In fact, quite the contrary. Many Jedi's have fallen from the order to become evil, and commit terrible acts of violence. However, for you to actually imply the Jedi have ever commited these acts, or are even capable of them is rediculous. They simply are not.

Jedi's are purely good, with no room for anything but. Siths are evil, with no good thoughts or compasion in them.

Ahh....and Idealist.

Lose the rose colored glasses for sec...

Perhaps corruption isn't the right way of putting it. Too much evil leads to corruption...thinking you are extremely "righteous" leads to pride, arrogance, vainity...wait then it becomes evil...which is my point.

Ushgarak
Bull. That's just Palpatine seducing.

GL has made this very clear. Sith evil. Jedi good.

Simple as that. This entire topic is futile- it is conceptually against what Star Wars stands for.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by tlbauerle
Ahh....and Idealist.

Lose the rose colored glasses for sec...

Perhaps corruption isn't the right way of putting it. Too much evil leads to corruption...thinking you are extremely "righteous" leads to pride, arrogance, vainity...wait then it becomes evil...which is my point.

The Jedi ARE righteous- and rightly so. That's the point of being the champions of the Light Side. They know what is right and wrong.

It's not like real life- this is, as I remind people, a black and white morality tale.

tlbauerle
Originally posted by Ushgarak
That's just ignoring the films.

The Republic wouldn't have done a damn thing to the Seperatists- had the Seperatists not been planning invasion! The Confederacy was built to aggressviely destroy the Republic- that was the point!

I'm pretty sure there is more to it than that...I agree...but I'd be curious about the disgruntlement with the Republic and what caused it in the first place...

Stefan Kojic
Ushgarak is right, GL said that in his time movies were all about anti-heroes so GL created Star Wars. Jedi are heroes, Sith are villains.

Ushgarak
Yes, the Republic is old and corrupt and crumbling and Dooku took advantage of that.

But the Jedi are not the Republic, for one thihg, and the point is still that the Confederacy were the aggressors, is another.

This is not a contrast of political views; it is the attempt of the forces of evil in the Galaxy to destroy the Forces of good.

tlbauerle
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The Jedi ARE righteous- and rightly so. That's the point of being the champions of the Light Side. They know what is right and wrong.

It's not like real life- this is, as I remind people, a black and white morality tale.

But too a fault, no?

"Count Dooku was once a Jedi...he couldn't assasinate anyone...it's not in his character"...Mace's statement implies arrogance and pride...the weakness of the righteous...

Vanquish
Jedi's are Purely good, and Siths are purely evil. It is their very nature, defined by the star wars writing. There is no point in disputing this, because to dispute it, is disputing GL. I think you are all forgetting that star wars ISN'T real. If it was real, there would be room to debate whether it should be this way, or that way. However, since it is fictional, we have no choice but to accept the way it is clearly portrayed by the author, and that is clear. Jedi = good, Sith = evil. That is the way it was intended, so there really can't be any intelligent debating either way.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by tlbauerle
But too a fault, no?

"Count Dooku was once a Jedi...he couldn't assasinate anyone...it's not in his character"...Mace's statement implies arrogance and pride...the weakness of the righteous...

No, that statement reflected one thing only- no-on suspected he turned to the Dark Side.

GL was trying to point out that this was an unbelievable circumstance.

Of course, in the EU it happens all the time, but GL had it in mind that it was very rare.

palpy_666
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The Jedi ARE righteous- and rightly so. That's the point of being the champions of the Light Side. They know what is right and wrong.

It's not like real life- this is, as I remind people, a black and white morality tale.

I don't think GL presents us with a plain, black and white, right and wrong story here. No, I think he presents us with BOTH sides of the story and allows the viewer to make up their own mind.

In Episode III, I believe GL will have created subtle nudges that actually cause the viewer to have sympathy for the Sith's perspective. I think some people will put themselves in Anakin's shoes and actually walk out of the theater questioning what so many have considered "the right way" in the Star Wars universe.

Ushgarak
No, that's not what he is doing at all- he is showing how easy it is to stray from the pat and BECOME evil, he's not watning people to think that might have been the right thing to do.

Sorry, but he has been very clear on this! Star Wars is the story of a good man who tuens bad- but is redeemed by his son.

It's not the story of a man who comes to a certain point of view and is then later persuaded to re-asses his views. It is more fundamental than that.

Good and evil, and why people become either.

There is nothing good, laudable and sympathetic about the Sith. They are the representation of pure evil.

tlbauerle
Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, that statement reflected one thing only- no-on suspected he turned to the Dark Side.

GL was trying to point out that this was an unbelievable circumstance.

Of course, in the EU it happens all the time, but GL had it in mind that it was very rare.

I just disagree.

I can't think its that simple...and if it is...the GL is much less of a storyteller than I ever imagined.

Ushgarak
GL is a very simple storyteller. Sorry, but he was only ever making a basic point- for, I will remind people, children.

It's all about clearly defined good and evil. It's been said so many times, in interviews, commentaries, documentaries...

Vanquish
I think you are mistaking the Jedi, for the Republic here. The Jedi are only a small part of the whole. Drawing negatives towards the Jedi, for the short comings of the republic isn't fair. It isn't in their nature to mentally manipulate people, so their job is very difficult. The Sith job is easy. Manipulate or Kill anything that opposes you. The Jedi have to live within the constraints of an idealistically perfect person.

I agree with anyone who says the republic has flaws, and corruption. However, I cannot agree with even the notion that a Jedi is in any way not purely good.

tlbauerle
Well I think you can read more into it.

AND its more fun if you do.

tlbauerle
Y'know even YODA says arrogance is a problem, "Even with the older, more experienced Jedi"

so NO, it's not that simple.

Ushgarak
If you are reading moral grey areas into it you have made a mistake. As already mentioned, GL was specifically writing against such a concept.

He used the allegory of Westerns- White hats and Black hats. You knew who was good and who was bad. No confusion.

I am sorry if this disappoints anyone! But it is what Star Wars is. There is plenty of mixed motive sci-fi out there- but not this one.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by tlbauerle
Y'know even YODA says arrogance is a problem, "Even with the older, more experienced Jedi"

so NO, it's not that simple.

Yes, like I said, the Jedi have made mistakes. What on Earth does that have to do with the central argument?

Sorry- still VERY simple.

tlbauerle
But that is my point...

The Jedi contribute to their own fall...through the flaws of extreme righteousness.

palpy_666
Originally posted by tlbauerle
Y'know even YODA says arrogance is a problem, "Even with the older, more experienced Jedi"

so NO, it's not that simple.

I completely agree! Good point there. This does in fact ruin the theory that good is plain good and evil is plain evil in Star Wars. There is much depth and many grey spots.

Ushgarak
That's not righteousness as a flaw- it is being mistaken. That's not evil. They were still good guys, in the absolute sense.

They just got it wrong.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by palpy_666
I completely agree! Good point there. This does in fact ruin the theory that good is plain good and evil is plain evil in Star Wars. There is much depth and much grey.

Sorry, no, that point cannot be disputed because George Lucas himself has said that is what the story is.

So apologies... but you are wrong.

In fact, George Lucas HATES grey areas, as his commentary on the nature of Balance of the Force makes clear.

Vanquish
Exactly. Good people can make mistakes too. I fail to see how this makes the jedi less good, or the Sith less evil.

tlbauerle
Thank you...

It IS about good and evil...

But it IS ALSO a cautionary tale about the times we live in...

Ushgarak
I think you are mistaking points GL is making- about democracy, attachment and moral choices- with the central theme of the film, which is good and evil, as we have said.

But that is all by the by... because that doesn't change the fact that the Sith are absolutely evil and the Jedi absolutely good. Not PERFECT. Not incapable of error. But good, as opposed to the evil of the Sith.

That is the fundamental point of the saga.

palpy_666
So Ush, you're implying that GL wants us to side with the guys who are filled with corruption, arrogance, and lack of strength in their beliefs (the Jedi and all the other "good guys"wink? The Sith seem to have an unquestionable amount of loyality.

tlbauerle
arrogance does not equal righteousnes...

Pride is one of the worst evils.

tlbauerle
Originally posted by palpy_666
So Ush, you're implying that GL wants us to side with the guys who are filled with corruption, arrogance, and lack of strength in their beliefs? The Sith seem to have an unquestionable amount of loyality.

Well I don't think he wants us to side with the SITH...that is ludicrous...

I think it is, again, a cautionary tale. Suicide terrorists also have unquestionable loyalty to inane causes...doesn't mean I side with them, or hell...even respect the loyalty.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by palpy_666
So Ush, you're implying that GL wants us to side with the guys who are filled with corruption, arrogance, and lack of strength in their beliefs (the Jedi and all the other "good guys"wink? The Sith seem to have an unquestionable amount of loyality.

The Jedi are neither filled with corruption or lack of strength. Some of them have displayed an arrogant streak due to lack of opposition- makes them rather human actually.

So to answer you question- yes, absolutely you are meant to side with them.

"The Sith seem to have an unquestionable amount of loyality"

What on EARTH do you mean by that? The whole point of the Sith is that there is NO loyalty! One of the Apprentice or Master will always kill the other!

Are you quite sure you paid full attention to these films?

tlbauerle
They are loyal to seeking absolute power for themselves at the down fall of everyone else...that's what I understood...

agreed...definately not to each other...loyal to the cause and promotion of themself the individual.

Vanquish
Getting back to my Nazi Germany analogy. Palpy, it seems you would side with anyone with undying loyalty to a common cause, no matter what that cause is, or what means they use to acheive a goal. You're starting to really scare me. As was stated above, even suicide bombing terrorists have undying loyalty, and a clear common goal. Are you honestly suggesting that it should be reveared? Please...

Ushgarak
Oh wow, how laudable! That's a metaphorical interpretation of loyalty anyway- it is simple selfishness and greed.

palpy_666
Originally posted by tlbauerle
They are loyal to seeking absolute power for themselves at the down fall of everyone else...that's what I understood...

agreed...definately not to each other...loyal to the cause and promotion of themself the individual.

Again, I agree. This is in response to Ush asking if I have paid attention to the films.

whitewookie
being broad and categorising starwars into two broad cateogories is singlemindedly ignorant and stubborn! Without the grey areas we wouldn't have such scoundrels as Han Solo or (i apolagise for delving into the EU here, but these stories ARE approved by george lucas) Mara jade for example! If u want to scope everything into black and white Ush go watch Winnie the Pooh!

tlbauerle
That is what I was getting at...greed, lust for power...etc.

palpy_666
Originally posted by whitewookie
being broad and categorising starwars into two broad cateogories is singlemindedly ignorant and stubborn! Without the grey areas we wouldn't have such scoundrels as Han Solo or (i apolagise for delving into the EU here, but these stories ARE approved by george lucas) Mara jade for example! If u want to scope everything into black and white Ush go watch Winnie the Pooh!

LOL!!! laughing

Ushgarak
Originally posted by whitewookie
being broad and categorising starwars into two broad cateogories is singlemindedly ignorant and stubborn! Without the grey areas we wouldn't have such scoundrels as Han Solo or (i apolagise for delving into the EU here, but these stories ARE approved by george lucas) Mara jade for example! If u want to scope everything into black and white Ush go watch Winnie the Pooh!

Or maybe, I will watch Star Wars, and appreicate it as the film that George Lucas says it is, hmmm?

You want something else watch a film that is not for kids. But I will remind you again- this is not MY interpretation... it is simply what GL said he made. Anyone who says different is simply wrong! That is all there is to it

And Han Solo is exactly the point of that! Despite everything he had a heart of gold that he could not deny.

And no- totally ignore the EU. It is of no relevance.

tlbauerle
I wouldn't say ignorant and stubborn...it IS a way to see the saga...just not the ONLY way.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by palpy_666
Again, I agree. This is in response to Ush asking if I have paid attention to the films.

Ok, so you find the fact that they lust for power and greed and domination and evil laudable, and don't want to side with the Jedi who promote peace and justice and strive for all things good?

Sorry, no, you haven't paid attention.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by tlbauerle
I wouldn't say ignorant and stubborn...it IS a way to see the saga...just not the ONLY way.

It's George Lucas's way. So really... there is no other way.

whitewookie
if everyone watched a film and firmly believed and got from it the things the director enforced on them in the narrative, half the people who do wouldn't love starwars! every film is interpreted in a different way

tlbauerle
Originally posted by Ushgarak

it is simply what GL said he made. Anyone who says different is simply wrong! That is all there is to it


The answer Lucas may give at a press junket or as a sound byte or what have you does not fully examine his ideological views of Good and Evil as simply defined black and white.

He may say "essentially" it is the story of good and evil meaning at it's basic storytelling component...but that doesn't mean that the story is that simple.

Ushgarak
Ok, well, I guess I cannot stop anyone thinking "GL says his film is about one thing, but I think he, the writer and director and owner, is wrong and he ACTUALLY wrote a story about this other thing..."

But I would suggest that it is not a rational viewpoint to hold.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by tlbauerle
The answer he may give at a press junket or as a sound byte or what have you does not fully examine his ideological views of Good and Evil as simply defined black and white.

He may say "essentially" it is the story of good and evil meaning at it's basic storytelling component...but that doesn't mean that the story is that simple.

No, he's also given it in detailed interview exploring what he was writing- as was mentioned earlier with the anitheroes thing, and has been gone into in enormous detail with the White Hat/Black Hat western allegory I talked of earlier.

Sorry, again, but you cannot simply ignore all that.

tlbauerle
Why is that not rational? To think there is more to things than sound bytes and simple condensed answers? I hate to say it Ush, but that sounds naive.

Ushgarak
Naive is the one who discounts everything GL has to say about it in favour of his own opinion.

I am simply well-informed. But it was whitewookie's view I called not rational.

whitewookie
Originally posted by tlbauerle
Why is that not rational? To think there is more to things than sound bytes and simple condensed answers? I hate to say it Ush, but that sounds naive.

i agree! i mean how can you say that were not suppose to feel sorry for Anikan when he becomes vader, coz thats what your essentially saying! As Lucas doesn't want us to like the Sith, therefore we feel no sympathy or empathy for him when he does fall!

tlbauerle
The black/white hat thing is a visual story telling tool, motif, what have you...that he does use to personify good/bad...blah blah blah...

In the civil war we had blue or grey uniforms...but the war was about something more than just good and evil.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by whitewookie
i agree! i mean how can you say that were not suppose to feel sorry for Anikan when he becomes vader, coz thats what your essentially saying! As Lucas doesn't want us to like the Sith, therefore we feel no sympathy or empathy for him when he does fall!

Of course you are meant to feel sorry for him- for the horrible mistake he has made!

-

Yes, but this is NOT a history, it is a mythology.

Sorry, once more, GL: has been very clear on this on multiple occasions. Your opinions do not mean anything compared to that.

You are making Star Wars something it is not. That is an error.

whitewookie
That sounds an awful like a dictatorship to me!

Ushgarak
Of course! It is his story, it gets done his way! You can like it or not like it- but you cannot change it!

tlbauerle

Ushgarak
Well, that again is your opinion, but let's not fixate on that.

Fact is, it is very well established what Star Wars is and is not. What it is is a simple morality play of good guys and bad guys. What it is not is a story of moral grey areas.

Like I say, GL has specifically talked of his distaste for such things.

tlbauerle
The nature of Good and Evil is not simple black and white....

Any story trying to show the nature of Good and Evil cannot simply rely on black and white to accurately tell the story.

It seems pretty clear to me after watching the films that Lucas' idea of Good and Evil and the struggle between them is not a direct confrontation but a complex, intricate, and intimate struggle.

Ushgarak
Ok, sorry, GL disagrees with your opening statement there. You don't agree with what GL thinks? Fine! But that is how he wrote his story.

The prequel films are in a more complex backdrop- that doesn't affect the core value of the story. Rebels vs. Imperials in a simple background has become Jedi vs. Sith in a complex one- identical principle.

Prod
laughing @ this thread...LOL...

simple:

jedi are good...

sith are evil...

and what palpatine says is not true...and if u beleived that...then u were just like anakin wink

Vanquish
It really is as simple as Ush is saying it is. We are following a FICTIONAL story, where the boundaries of good and evil are clearly lableled for us. There is no disputing it, because it isn't real. The only option you have, is to take everything the author has put infront of you, and either like it, or don't like it.

However, what Ush is saying (and I completely agree) is there is NO ROOM for other interpretations in a fictional tale. The ONLY relevent viewpoint is that of the Author. And in this case, GL has made the story abundantly clear.

Jedi's are Good, Siths are evil, get over it already.

tlbauerle
Look...if Good and Evil were simply black and white then how can Anakin be redeemed?

Also, when does Anakin become Evil? It is not an instant switch from black to white...

This implies a grey area.

Ushgarak
Ok, let's stop talking theory nd get down to caes here.

Here is GL's commentary on good, evil and balance:

"If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is grey. In each of us we have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this"

See? He specifically extols the virtue of seperating good and evil into black and white- and as far away from grey as possible!

Like I say, this is very established stuff. And as I say, disagree all you like, but this is still how it is.

tlbauerle
Originally posted by Vanquish
The ONLY relevent viewpoint is that of the Author.


Well what a dull world that is to live in.

Ushgarak
Well, some might say Star Wars is a dull story.

But it is still HIS story, and his alone.

tlbauerle
See and I take his view on the dangerous grey area as motivation for using grey in the films...to show it IS dangerous.

Ushgarak
But the point is that all the good guys ARE simply white. There is no other choice. If you aren't white, you aren't good.

The loss of that Balance in the Galaxy is actually the slide into evil- not grey areas.

Meanwhile, we combine all that with GL's comments that he hated mixed-morality heroes and wanted to create a story where the good guys and bad guys were clearly defined as such...

... and we have an undeniable conceptual stance for his story.

tlbauerle
Sorry...the Jedi are not collectivly flawless. If you aren't white...you can be black or many shades of grey.

whitewookie
then tell me Master Ush, in episode 1,2,3! What would u define the senate as (considering that it slowly grew more corrupt)

Ushgarak
When it comes to their moraity, they are white- simple as that. The are the champions of all things good.

That they are not perfect, I state again, has nothing to do with their moralities.

As GL sees it, there should be no shades of grey.

tlbauerle
Hmm...as clearly defined as the reluctant hero?

Ushgarak
Originally posted by whitewookie
then tell me Master Ush, in episode 1,2,3! What would u define the senate as (considering that it slowly grew more corrupt)

The Senate is not a person. There will be good and bad people in it- but each either bad, or good. There isn't anyone in the middle, in GL's story.

The bad are outnumbering the good.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by tlbauerle
Hmm...as clearly defined as the reluctant hero?

I am not 100% clear what you are getting at.

whitewookie
that same theory can be applied to jedi and sith, THEY too are not people merely groups *raises eyebrow*

Ushgarak
Originally posted by whitewookie
that same theory can be applied to jedi and sith, THEY too are not people merely groups *raises eyebrow*

Yes, but they are all either good or evil, and as it happens, ALL the Jedi are good, and ALL... well, BOTH the Sith are evil.

whitewookie
although both practice such arts that delve into the other! Such as mace windus practice of a more agressive saber art that is formed from aggression and dare i say it some flavour of a darker nature?

Ushgarak
Err, no, that is handling a weapon. Handling a weapon does not make you good or evil. What you use that weapon for is more relevant.

whitewookie
so if i hacked away at a person with a lightsaber, removing ALL limbs, but simply to incampacitate an enemy, thats perfectly justifiable?

Ushgarak
That depends on the circumstance! Jedi use weapons, harming others in the course of their duty, if need be, is always going to be part of their jobs.

But they never fight for selfish reasons.

tlbauerle
Whether there SHOULD be grey is not the point.

The dangers lye in the fact that there IS grey.

The reluctant hero...say Han Solo is not a clearly defined character. Sure he is a hero, but he is reluctant. It shows the conflict between the individual and collective mindset.

Is the fact the he is ultimately a hero enough to wipe away the fact he was reluctant? I think it leaves it up to the viewer to decide, which is why Han is an ambivalent character.

Ushgarak
Err, no, Han is White. He doesn't want to believe it, but he is, and ultimately he cannot deny it.

He's a good guy, out and out.

whitewookie
with a dark history of smuggling, spice trading, involvement with murderers and kingpins? wow, sounds like a virgin to me! might as well put on his symbolic brides dress now! *a heavy dose of sarcasm is always favoured by a brit*

tlbauerle
No...he embodies the grey between as he moves toward white.

Grey in ANH...except the very, very END. Grey in Empire because he's still planning to leave: "Then you're as good as gone"...silence.

Finally White in Jedi.

whitewookie
Landos character works in a similiar fashion in his transition throughout empire.

Jedi Priestess
So where do the dark Jedi fit in if everything is black and white?

tlbauerle
The biggest point is that if the Jedi are WHITE and clearly GOOD...

Why does Lucas use ARROGANCE as a flaw?

tlbauerle
Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
So where do the dark Jedi fit in if everything is as black and white?

Now that is f*cking funny.

Jedi Priestess
Because arrogance is a flaw.

tlbauerle
Yeah...that's my point.

whitewookie
but hang on, that makes jedi *the epitome of good* not jedi, because there flawed.........so what are they? Crazy dudes with laser swords and alot of time on there hands? IM SO CONFUSED

Jedi Priestess
Oh I dont buy for a minute that the Jedi are ALL pure......some clearly are not.

whitewookie
For the best example of Morale Greyness in starwars! The Kaminoans! How the hell do u divide them into black or white?

tlbauerle
All I have been trying to say is that pure GOOD has its flaw.

Everyone else has been trying to say GOOD is PURE GOOD and GOOD is NOT flawed.

tlbauerle
Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Oh I dont buy for a minute that the Jedi are ALL pure......some clearly are not.

Ush has been trying to educate us that GL intended that the JEDI are PURE MORAL WHITENESS and the complete embodiment of GOOD as simple and basic as can be.

Whitey the Wookiee and myself have been convinced otherwise....and its great to see someone agree.

Jedi Priestess
I dont think Windu is all sweetness and light, in fact I think he's partly responsible for the events of EP3.

tlbauerle
Thanks...

But it appears that debating has taken a sabatical since Ush isn't posting in here anymore...

Ah well....perhaps I'm off...

whitewookie
I'll hold the fort *friendly punches* big grin

tlbauerle
Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I dont think Windu is all sweetness and light, in fact I think he's partly responsible for the events of EP3.

Interesting take...

I've always wondered what would have happened if the council embraced Anakin and trained him in the first place. It will be interesting to see the last stand of Master Windu....

Vanquish
I don't agree with Ush when he extends the concept of Good and evil to non Jedi's and non siths. In my opinion, the word Jedi is in George Lucas's story, synonomous with Good. And the same applies with the word Sith. Sith is the embodyment of Evil. That is clear in the way he tells the story. As for characters like Han, Lando, the Kamino's, and bodies like the senate, that is up for interpretation. They are not Jedi or Sith, and therefore don't fall in the blanket of pure good and pure evil.

It is no different then my own beliefs in Buddhism. I have never, and will never question the notion that all monks and masters are purely good. Are they flawless individuals? No. Have they made mistakes? Certainly. Are they purely good individuals? Absolutely.

Some monks and masters lose their way, or fall from the religion, and therefore do not embody pure goodness anymore. Much like Jedi who fall to dark Jedi or Siths. They used to be purely good, but after they fell from the order, they fail to be purely good anymore. However, they used to be.



All Jedi's are Good, and All siths are evil.

tlbauerle
And Jedi are flawed with arrogance which is just as dangerous as being evil.

Vanquish
How is a little arrogance as dangerous as blood thirsty, compasionless Sith who are capable of destroying ENTIRE worlds in 1 second even remotely comparable?

I think you have to leave the dramatic flare out of the debate if you want a solid point of view. Yes arrogance is a flaw, but as I said, one doesn't have to be flawless to be good. You guys are all missing the central point.

GL says in his story that Jedi's are good. Just because you are purely good, doesn't imply that you don't have character flaws, and it certainly doesn't imply that you are never wrong. The jedi have some minor flaws, and have made a few mistakes, but that doesn't change the fact that they are the embodyment of good as this story is being told.

Jedi Priestess
I agree Vanquish. What I dont agree with is the black and whiteness of the issue. I mean I understand that is the way George wrote it, but that's rarely the way people are.

Vanquish
I know it's rarely the way people are, and in the Star wars world, most of the people aren't that way either. However, Jedi's and Siths are that way. Everyone else in the entire Star wars universe is more complex then black and white. Han Solo is more complex then simply White, as we know he has both at certain times. The senate, i'm sure has many good people, and many evil people on it. Corruption is abound on the senate also. It is not a black and white issue.

But when it comes to the religion of Jedi and Sith, it is that simple i'm sorry to say. It was specifically written that way. Jedi's are the embodyment of pure goodness. If you are not that way, then you are NOT a jedi. Anyone in the entire star wars universe who isn't purely good, isn't a Jedi. Jedi's must be by definition good. If there was a star wars dictionary, and you were to look up the word Jedi, it would say good. If you were to look up the word Sith, it would say evil. That is the inescapable truth about the story. Jedi=good, Sith=evil

Vanquish
That in no way means that you can't cheer for the Sith, or like the Sith and think they are cool. I know lots of people who like the Sith more then the Jedi. They are stronger it seems, they are dark and mysterious, they go around force choking and force lightning people which rules. Sith own, no doubt.

However, the thread was created by someone who is trying to skew the whole star wars concept simply because he thinks Siths are cooler. There is nothing wrong with thinking Siths are cool and hoping they win. However, changing the very basis of the story line that GL wrote, and actually implying that Jedi are anything but Pure good is where the line must be drawn.

They are purely good, but that doesn't mean you have to be on their side now does it?

Darth Plagueis
It aint easy being a Sith. I cant see the motivation in getting an apprentice when you KNOW the bastard will eventually try and kill you.

palpy_666
Hello everyone. As I've been looking through this thread that I've started, I've seen some strong points made for my posistion (which is that the Jedi are not purely good). As mentioned long before, I am a promoter of the Sith and their philosophy. I do not believe for one second that GL made Star Wars and expected everyone to be a supporter of the Jedi (and all the other "good guys"wink. I sincerely believe that the "good"guys are so filled with corruption and wishy wash philosophy that it makes them appear to be weak and unable to hold up to their supposed "goodness". I mean, Obi-Wan clearly LIES to Luke in Ep IV telling him about his father, then in Ep VI, he tells Luke that he was telling the truth "from a certain point of view"... How wishy wash is that!

On the other hand, the Sith are loyal to their cause (minus Vader because of the prophecy of the one who is to bring balance to the Force). The Sith seem to be strong and confident in their posistion. I believe they have been misunderstood so much. I think that they do want peace, justice, and order-- but they go about it in a different way-- suprisingly though, their way actually seems effective as it utilizes ruthlessness which does yeild results despite what hippy philosophers have stated through the ages. It's all a matter of science-- survival of the fittest, if you will.

The Sith are strong. The Empire is strong. Palpatine DID bring justice to the galaxy using the methods that he did. He rounded up the greedy beurocrates (like Gunray) and set them up in a posistion where he could use them in a situation where destroying them later would be justifiable. By getting rid of the corrupt individuals in the galaxy Palpatine created a stronger and healthier government.

Star Wars is deffinately NOT black and white. That's dumb to say it is.

Vanquish
And you have only proved one thing: That you support anything that gets results, regardless of the motives, or the means to acheive them. Your entire argument shows that you would clearly support the Nazi's cause, because it is consistant, strong, and they are loyal. You would also support the terrorists in their cause, because again, very loyal, very strong and consistant.

Great, so what's the point other then you are a fanatic?

palpy_666
Originally posted by Vanquish
And you have only proved one thing: That you support anything that gets results, regardless of the motives, or the means to acheive them. Your entire argument shows that you would clearly support the Nazi's cause, because it is consistant, strong, and they are loyal. You would also support the terrorists in their cause, because again, very loyal, very strong and consistant.

Great, so what's the point other then you are a fanatic?

You are quite narrow minded. I support Palpatine's stance. He wants peace and justice and he gets peace and justice. And just because I support a fictional governmental position doesn't mean I side in real life with freakin' Nazi's and terrorists.

lourock
Originally posted by Ushgarak
This is ridiculous. Star Wars is a simple morality tale of good and evil. The Jedi are good and the Sith evil. Any attempt to complicate that has missed the point of Star Wars entirely.


well said. well said indeed.

Vanquish
Palpy_666, the problem with every statement you have made is that it has no substance what so ever. You have ONLY stated that you support strong, loyal, and consistant viewpoints, and that you support anyone who wants peace and justice and gets it. That leaves you open to everything I said, plus more.

How about instead of stating a clearly fanatical viewpoint, you actually go into exactly WHAT about it that you like? What morals do the sith have that you share? what Sith values do you respect? What exactly about Vader and Palpy do you agree with, other then dictatorship BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY !!!

Start from there, and we can have an educated conversation. But i'm sorry, I can't speak intelligently with someone who has only said he supports Palpy's quest for supreme power, and overlooks the obviously extreme and violent means he uses to get it. You're argument is terribly lacking so far...

Ken Kenobi
Originally posted by tlbauerle
What the hell? Do we call you Lance? Do we call you Ken?

How about, "Your Modship?"

Call me Ken, that's my real name anyways.

jungleboygeorge
Hey palpy_666... i have read every post in this thread (yes it took a while) and have come up with my viewpoint.

You can't say you support someone who wants peace and justice when the only way he tries to achieve this is is through genocide (alderan), and other such heinous acts. Talk about lacking any morals! If you wish to side with the Sith, thats entirely up to you, but i think you need to clarify your reasons a little better.

Others in the post have claimed that there are many grey areas. We need to remember, and im going to use GL here, that the man himself has said that Star Wars is a story about good overcoming evil... simple as that. The basic themes throughout the saga are that of Jedi V Sith, so called Rebels V Empire... ie good V evil.

I am not suggesting an empire is evil purely because it is an empire, rather i am saying that the basic ideals behind the empire come from a man who is pure evil in every sense. To lead through tyranny and oppression reminds me a lot... and i hate to use this example... of Nazi Germany, and there have been other examples in history.

Of course other individuals in the saga, eg han, lando etc, are not as clear cut in terms of black and white as some have suggested, but what is definitely black and white in my opinion is the basic good v evil theme evident in the entire saga. We need to remember this is sci-fi... ie Science-FICTION...

PENGUINER
Sith: Decisive, cares for world order -- like anyone else and destroys oppositions, and no red tape. Fear keeps the world in order.

Republic: Corrupt, can't make any decision without red tape... Does not care for world order as long as someone gets rich.

If good guys always wore white hats and called their powers the light side, I'd call that propaganda.

Sometimes a brush fire is needed to clear the area of the Serengetti for fresh life....

XX Emperor XX
Ultra Cool thread I've always liked the Sith more than the Jedi, but good will always triumph over evil....Palpatine is just making it look like the Sith have morally good intensions and the Jedi are corrupt and no good, its just his way of getting Anakin to side with him

P.S. does anyone have Jedi action 2 tv spot in wmv format?

palpy_666
Originally posted by XX Emperor XX
Ultra Cool thread I've always liked the Sith more than the Jedi, but good will always triumph over evil....Palpatine is just making it look like the Sith have morally good intensions and the Jedi are corrupt and no good, its just his way of getting Anakin to side with him

P.S. does anyone have Jedi action 2 tv spot in wmv format?

Again, you guys are placing conceptual terms upon neutral actions/thought (e.g "good" and "evil"wink. There really is no good and evil. For, one man's good is another man's evil and visa versa. As stated before in this thread "There are heroes on both sides". I completely agree.

Sure Palpatine is telling Anakin that the Jedi are corrupt so that way he could gain his trust. But he speaks truth! Arrogance and other flaws are found in even "some of the older, more experienced Jedi".

"Good always triumphs over evil"... again.. what some consider good is what some consider evil!

palpy_666
Originally posted by Vanquish
Palpy_666, the problem with every statement you have made is that it has no substance what so ever. You have ONLY stated that you support strong, loyal, and consistant viewpoints, and that you support anyone who wants peace and justice and gets it. That leaves you open to everything I said, plus more.

How about instead of stating a clearly fanatical viewpoint, you actually go into exactly WHAT about it that you like? What morals do the sith have that you share? what Sith values do you respect? What exactly about Vader and Palpy do you agree with, other then dictatorship BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY !!!

Start from there, and we can have an educated conversation. But i'm sorry, I can't speak intelligently with someone who has only said he supports Palpy's quest for supreme power, and overlooks the obviously extreme and violent means he uses to get it. You're argument is terribly lacking so far...

I support the Sith because the Sith do not have moral obligations and constraints placed upon them. They do not have a strict code of conduct which robbs them of their natural desires. They are truly free to do as they please.

The Sith make usage of the Dark Side of the Force (accessible through anger and rage). Anger and rage are normal feelings and can be used for beneficial purposes such as obtaining your end goal. The Sith care primarily about themselves-- and so they should. This is exactly what nature is about-- survival of the fittest and self preservation. Darwinism is evident everywhere in nature-- even human nature. But for some reason the Jedi place restrictions on normal behavior such as thinking of a member of the opposite sex in a normal manner-- "Be mindful of your thoughts, Anakin. They betray you (Obi-Wan to Anakin in Ep II when Anakin comments about Padme being intoxicating to him). The Jedi forbid love. That's rediculous.

palpy_666
I also side with the Empire and Palpatine's plan because it is a solid plan to bring TRUE, unbiased, un hypocritical, and un corrupt order to the galaxy. It is a plan completely devoid of mindless and greedy beurocrates, a plan that brings stability and justice.

macgeek2005
The Jedi will kill a Sith anytime, Just because he's a sith. No other reason.

That is why Palpatine has to wipe out the Jedi before he can gain control of the galaxy. If they didnt have a problem with him, they wouldn't have to die..

But they're so stubborn "Sith are Evil, Jedi are Good".

jungleboygeorge
I have another thought for you "Sith have the best plan" thinking...

Since when do the means justify the end?

It's amazing how we glorify Alexander the Great and others like him who have simply taken what was not theirs to take... (and this is coming from a Greek!)

Vanquish
Well, I can't reach any other conclusion other then Palpy_666 strongly believes in dictatorships, and has no problem with mass genocide as a means to exterminate any and all opposition.

He feels that since a few of the Jedi have minor flaws such as arrogance, that it justifies what the Sith represent at heart, which is death, destruction, violence, genocide, murder, and the thirst for ultimate power. Just your basic good family values I would say, LOL

XX Emperor XX
Originally posted by palpy_666
I support the Sith because the Sith do not have moral obligations and constraints placed upon them. They do not have a strict code of conduct which robbs them of their natural desires. They are truly free to do as they please.

The Sith make usage of the Dark Side of the Force (accessible through anger and rage). Anger and rage are normal feelings and can be used for beneficial purposes such as obtaining your end goal. The Sith care primarily about themselves-- and so they should. This is exactly what nature is about-- survival of the fittest and self preservation. Darwinism is evident everywhere in nature-- even human nature. But for some reason the Jedi place restrictions on normal behavior such as thinking of a member of the opposite sex in a normal manner-- "Be mindful of your thoughts, Anakin. They betray you (Obi-Wan to Anakin in Ep II when Anakin comments about Padme being intoxicating to him). The Jedi forbid love. That's rediculous.

The jedi have these codes in place because the Jedi have to be free minded. They can not allow for things such as love, and commitment to get in the way of what needs to be done. In Episode 2 if you remember when padme falls out of the ship Anakin completely loses focus on the mission of catching Dooku and ending the war because he is destracted about Padme."Anakin don't let your personal feelings get in the way"-(OB1), also when Anakin left to go help his mother he jeopardised the mission of protecting Padme b/c he was attached to his mother, he feared her lose. "The fear of lose is the path to the dark side" (Yoda) reason why training to be a jedi starts very young, Anakin was already to old.

Same goes for Luke his vision of Han and Leia clouded the rest of his training in EP V because he was attached to them. That is why the Jedi have codes that forbid certain things to prevent them from having clouded visions

JediMasterLuke
Originally posted by Ushgarak
What on EARTH do you mean by that? The whole point of the Sith is that there is NO loyalty! One of the Apprentice or Master will always kill the other!

Exactly I mean didnt Palps have DOOKU eliminated by Anakin. Cmon now the very same SITH lord that turned over the DEATH STAR plans, trained Grevious to kill JEDI, started a war and then in the end for all of his hard work he got sliced and diced and Palps was suppose to be his boy. Now if thats not a blantant form of disloyalty and betrayal I dont know what is.

PENGUINER
If Emperor had control of the media, his power would be the light side and they would wear white.
I seriously doubt everyone in the galaxy would have cheered the rebel's victory. No way that could happen if Palpatine controlled the Galaxy and the World Broadcast Network... smile
The Empire Broadcast would be televising all the murderous acts committed by the rebels such as killing innocent contractors on the death star, and the senseless arm cutting of the terrorist jedis who use dirty mind tricks to win at Pazaac. Jedis decapitate on a whim! With a dull lightsabre! Then broadcast all the aliens killed by the jedis with Empire's flag draped over them....

palpy_666
When I say that the Sith are loyal, I mean that they are loyal to their own quest for power and personal fulfillment, not loyal to eachother. Personal fulfillment brings personal happiness in the end. And truly, I have to say, personal happiness is a characteristic of all conscious beings. Again, this is science.

JediMasterLuke
Originally posted by palpy_666
I support the Sith because the Sith do not have moral obligations and constraints placed upon them. They do not have a strict code of conduct which robbs them of their natural desires. They are truly free to do as they please.

Uh Palpy I hate to disappoint you but the SITH do have rules and a code. They broke away from the Jedi Order, so what applies to the JEDI applies to the SITH- No ATTACHMENTS. That is why Sidious wants Padme out of the picture she is too much of a focus for Anakin.

She and Obi-Wan are Anakin's moral compass. Get rid of them and Anakin belongs to Palpatine. Also that is why Sidious started questioning Vader in ROTJ about his attachment to LUke "I want to make sure your feelings are clear on this matter."

The Sith make usage of the Dark Side of the Force (accessible through anger and rage). Anger and rage are normal feelings and can be used for beneficial purposes such as obtaining your end goal.

Yeah Palpy but at what cost Anakin's rage and anger destroyed his wife ,his life, his friendship and a solid bond with his children, if you ask me its not worth it.

The Sith care primarily about themselves-- and so they should. This is exactly what nature is about-- survival of the fittest and self preservation. Darwinism is evident everywhere in nature-- even human nature.

Yeah selfishness, Palps cared only for himself and the SIth ruling the galaxy for 10000 years that he forgot about the bond between
Luke . It got his butt chunked down a reactor shaft .

But for some reason the Jedi place restrictions on normal behavior such as thinking of a member of the opposite sex in a normal manner-- "Be mindful of your thoughts, Anakin. They betray you (Obi-Wan to Anakin in Ep II when Anakin comments about Padme being intoxicating to him). The Jedi forbid love. That's rediculous.


Well Palpy his thoughts did betray him his love for Padme became obssessive in ROTS to the point he nearly choked the life out of her. Also you might want to find out what the SITH forbid because i know you dont think they allow love.

JediMasterLuke
Originally posted by palpy_666
When I say that the Sith are loyal, I mean that they are loyal to their own quest for power and personal fulfillment, not loyal to eachother. Personal fulfillment brings personal happiness in the end. And truly, I have to say, personal happiness is a characteristic of all conscious beings. Again, this is science.

Well did it bring Vader personal fulfillment when he killed his wife or destroyed her. Did it bring him personal fulfillment to look upon his two children that he never got a chance to truly bond with because he was so busy helping Palps achieve his goal. Personal fulfillment means more than just power.

" Go my son......leave me"-Vader
"Youre coming with me, Ive got to save you."-Luke
"You already have." Vader

palpy_666
The Sith are about using the Force for personal gain. The Sith allow anything which brings the Dark Side user happiness and pleasure for himself. And so, if a Sith wants love and that will make him happy, then he can have love. Whereas a Jedi can have nothing to do with love.

Palpatine didn't want Padme out of the picture or else he would've told Anakin in ep III that. And by the way, Palpatine said "I wonder if your feelings are clear..." concerning wether or not Vader actually felt Luke on board the stolen Imperial Shuttle headed for Endor. He didn't question him about his bond with Luke.

JediMasterLuke
Originally posted by palpy_666
The Sith are about using the Force for personal gain. The Sith allow anything which brings the Dark Side user happiness and pleasure for himself. And so, if a Sith wants love and that will make him happy, then he can have love. Whereas a Jedi can have nothing to do with love.

Okay are we talking about the same SITH that you just said focused on anger, and rage and by the way HATE. Also Palps is not concerned with love, he is a SITH and SITH dont have attachments. If that is the case he wouldve had a wife but he doesnt so what is that saying.

Palpatine didn't want Padme out of the picture or else he would've told Anakin in ep III that.

Wherever did you get that notion he does not want Padme out of the picture. He has tried on many occassions to kill Padme and EPI- II prove that point. It will only come to fruition in EPIII when his apprentice Anakin Skywalker-Darth Vader finally makes it a reality.

And by the way, Palpatine sayd "I wonder if your feelings are clear..." concerning wether or not Vader actually felt Luke on board the stolen Imperial Shuttle headed for Endor. He didn't question him about his bond with Luke.

Uh yeah just like Kenobi said in AOTc "Dont let your personal feelings get in the way." The same thing is being applied to Vader when Sidious starts questioning his loyalty. Its either Luke or Sidious wont be both.

palpy_666
Jedimasterluke,

LOL, the part about Palpatine not having a wife is rediculous. Just because he doesn't have one doesn't mean he CAN'T have one! And by the way, the Sith are all about having attachments. I don't know where you're coming from... Are we watching the same Star Wars movies? The Jedi are against having attachments but the Sith are not which is why the Sith Order seems so appealing to Anakin in Ep III... he will be able to hang on to his attachment-- his wife by joining the Sith, he believes. And Palpatine owning and ruling the entire galaxy-- wow, that sure doesn't sound like attachment to me (note: that was sarcasm).

BTW, Palpatine is using Anakin's love for Padme in order to turn him to the Dark Side. If Padme was gone, with what would Palpatine use to lure Anakin in? And so, he doesn't want her dead, thank you.

moviejunkie23
First of all i have to say that slefishness has to do with nature is nonsense. Maybe when concerning the frailty of man that applies but when you look at most animals they will sacrafice themselves for their offspring and also if you look at certain insects such as bees, they will do whatever is in the best interest of the hive.
Sure a woman may hate having her kids run her life and then stab them to death like what i read in the news latley, but thats not darwinism, thats not the noble act of selfishness in nature, thats the human spirit having someone do something evil, plain and simple
As this applies to star wars the sith use that evil side to, yes, get done what they want done, but at what cost? Like Jedi Master Luke has said, Anikin basically loses everything, he becomes a cripple and has to use a breathing device, he loses his wife and kids, and loses his best friend, because of his choices. Anikin is not a "happy person".

palpy_666
Originally posted by moviejunkie23
First of all i have to say that slefishness has to do with nature is nonsense. Maybe when concerning the frailty of man that applies but when you look at most animals they will sacrafice themselves for their offspring and also if you look at certain insects such as bees, they will do whatever is in the best interest of the hive.
Sure a woman may hate having her kids run her life and then stab them to death like what i read in the news latley, but thats not darwinism, thats not the noble act of selfishness in nature, thats the human spirit having someone do something evil, plain and simple
As this applies to star wars the sith use that evil side to, yes, get done what they want done, but at what cost? Like Jedi Master Luke has said, Anikin basically loses everything, he becomes a cripple and has to use a breathing device, he loses his wife and kids, and loses his best friend, because of his choices. Anikin is not a "happy person".

And you think Anakin would've been able to keep his wife and kids had he NOT turned to the Dark Side? I don't think so! The Jedi Council wouldn't have it and they would've expelled Anakin. Hmm.. that sure wouldn't make him happy. And by the way, the Sith aren't out of control monsters as some of you think. They don't walk up to someone and kill them for no reason. There's always a reason. When it comes to the Empire killing the Rebel's... the rebels deserved it. They were comitting treason against the government.

BTW... When people or creatures do something nice for someone else, that usually makes them feel good that they did something nice. The reason they do something nice is so that they will feel good that they did so-- hence selfishness. Altruism is just long term selfishness. That's nature.

moviejunkie23
Thats just silly sorry. Heres what Webster has to say about selfishness
"Concerned excessivley or exclusivley with oneself: seeking or concentrating on ones own advantage , pleasure or well being without regard to others. arising from concern with ones own welfare or advantage in disregard to others"
This means if you give a homeless man money without thinking of yourself but only thinking how great it will be to him he has a warm meal and its not concern to you that you will not enjoy the money and you expect nothing in return you are being unselfish. When a bee stings something that is getting near the hive after its stinger is ripped away it will die, it does not matter to the bee even though its well being is in jeopordy, its only motivation is the hive, not to "feel good" about itself. Its called sacraficing for the betterment of the whole, and sacrafice by nature is opposed to selfishness.
Committing treason against the government??? What about Palpatine? Was he citizen of the week when he was overthrowing the republic? So by your arguemnt right there Palpatine should be killed.
I enevr said the sith are "monsters" i think Lucas did good in making some grey area, like for instance Vader. Vader always had love for his son and in the end it won over the grip the emp had over him and he sacraficed himself so luke could live big grin

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