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Is it Lucifer....

Is it Jesus.....

Venus...

Not a person after all... but a big ball in the sky.

That's good Shaky...I should of put Venus in there too...But what does scripture say it is...

Originally posted by debbiejo
That's good Shaky...I should of put Venus in there too...But what does scripture say it is...

So, not for me?

Well I can't give the answer yet...cause no one has voted.....But I have the answer....yup....I found it....

Originally posted by debbiejo
Well I can't give the answer yet...cause no one has voted.....But I have the answer....yup....I found it....

I also know that answer... and I voted.

50-50....very nice people...I am sure you both have the right answer

Well lucifer is the Light Bringer....but what do you mean wit what is the Morning Star...like Shakya said it is Venus....do you mean in the Bible it says some time that one of either is the Star?

Lucifer is Jerome' s direct translation in his Vulgate of the Septuagint' s Greek translation, as heosphoros, "morning star" or "day star," literally "bringer of the dawn" (Isaiah 14:12).

I believe that it is Lucifer. Pre-fall, of course.

Here's the answer......

Jesus Reveals Himself

"I am the root and offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." (Revelation 22:16)

This verse presents the most shocking revelation in the entire Bible. On the very last page, it reveals Jesus as the "bright and morning star". In other words, Lucifer-- Satan!

In Isaiah 14:12, St. Jerome, translated the Hebrew "morning star" into the Latin term "Lucifer" (light bearer), a name commonly ascribed to Satan by Christians, and represents the fallen star, an ancient symbol for the fallen or evil one. The mourning star actually appears as the planet Venus, the brightest "star" in the sky (but the ancients did not know about planets). Venus always appears low on the horizon, thus it looked like a fallen star (fallen angel) to the believers.

Although the Isaiah verse describes the fallen king of Babylon, Christians have, for centuries, ascribed Satan as taking many forms. And what more powerful form could an evil being take than to pretend himself as the saviour of the world? This would certainly explain the hate filled verses attributed to Jesus and the blind followers who inherit ignorance. Thus, a conclusion, based on Christian beliefs of Satan, and the belief in the "inerrancy" of the Bible, one must conclude that Jesus has revealed himself as Satan!

What a Revelation!

yeah but to what hemisphere

Originally posted by finti
yeah but to what hemisphere

Only you would think of this....

Originally posted by debbiejo
Here's the answer......

Jesus Reveals Himself

"I am the root and offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." (Revelation 22:16)

This verse presents the most shocking revelation in the entire Bible. On the very last page, it reveals Jesus as the "bright and morning star". In other words, Lucifer-- Satan!

In Isaiah 14:12, St. Jerome, translated the Hebrew "morning star" into the Latin term "Lucifer" (light bearer), a name commonly ascribed to Satan by Christians, and represents the fallen star, an ancient symbol for the fallen or evil one. The mourning star actually appears as the planet Venus, the brightest "star" in the sky (but the ancients did not know about planets). Venus always appears low on the horizon, thus it looked like a fallen star (fallen angel) to the believers.

Although the Isaiah verse describes the fallen king of Babylon, Christians have, for centuries, ascribed Satan as taking many forms. And what more powerful form could an evil being take than to pretend himself as the saviour of the world? What a Revelation!
The scriptures in Isaiah also is symbolic to the fall of Satan as described elsewhere in the New Testament Both from Heaven and at the end of his reign on earth. Lucifer was a bearer of light when he was an angel of Heaven according to the Bible but became the Prince of Darkness after his fall. I asume then Jesus is called the bright morning star because it is said of Him to be the light of the earth. This to me is symbolic of hope and giving direction.

Glad you're back sonnet..

Originally posted by debbiejo
Glad you're back sonnet..
I really missed you all.

well it is of importance actually

Originally posted by finti
well it is of importance actually

Quite so......

I see venus...so wouldn't everyone?....well...maybe it depends on the time of the year.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Here's the answer......

Jesus Reveals Himself

"I am the root and offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." (Revelation 22:16)

This verse presents the most shocking revelation in the entire Bible. On the very last page, it reveals Jesus as the "bright and morning star". In other words, Lucifer-- Satan!

In Isaiah 14:12, St. Jerome, translated the Hebrew "morning star" into the Latin term "Lucifer" (light bearer), a name commonly ascribed to Satan by Christians, and represents the fallen star, an ancient symbol for the fallen or evil one. The mourning star actually appears as the planet Venus, the brightest "star" in the sky (but the ancients did not know about planets). Venus always appears low on the horizon, thus it looked like a fallen star (fallen angel) to the believers.

Although the Isaiah verse describes the fallen king of Babylon, Christians have, for centuries, ascribed Satan as taking many forms. And what more powerful form could an evil being take than to pretend himself as the saviour of the world? This would certainly explain the hate filled verses attributed to Jesus and the blind followers who inherit ignorance. Thus, a conclusion, based on Christian beliefs of Satan, and the belief in the "inerrancy" of the Bible, one must conclude that Jesus has revealed himself as Satan!

What a Revelation!
Or...when Satan fell, he no longer was the morning star; his position was given to the 'light of the world'.

besides that...here is valid proof that they are not one...

http://www.yfiles.com/Morning-Star.htm

"Who is the Morning Star?
Both Satan and Jesus are described the same way in the Bible!

By Guy Cramer

A reader emailed me with the following information (inside the box below):

In Isaiah 14:12 the NIV calls Satan the Morning Star, then turn to Revelation 22:16 you find that the Morning Star is Jesus in the same Bible!

The answer is not apparent in the (NIV) New International Version of the Bible, we must go to the original Hebrew text to find the answer:

The original Hebrew in Isaiah says, "O shining star, son of the morning, how you have fallen from the heavens." Whereas Jesus is the "Bright Morning Star" in Revelation. The confusion comes from the way they translated the Hebrew in the NIV. I have found time and time again that the New King James Version translates much more accurately than the NIV.

Isaiah 14 (NIV)
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

Isaiah 14 (NKJV)
The Fall of Lucifer
12 "How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!

Footnotes
14:12 Literally Day Star
While Satan may have been the Day Star he was the son of the morning. While Jesus is the Morning Star. Jesus and Satan (God and Satan) are not equals and never were. God is the creator while Satan (Lucifer) was created by God, the created cannot be equal to the creator.

Once again we find the Bible does not contradict itself."

Guess it's which version you're looking at...

Isaiah 14:12 (KJV) "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

However, here's how the verse appears in some modern translations:

Isaiah 14:12 (NIV) "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!"

Isaiah 14:12 (NASB) "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!"

Isaiah 14:12 (Young's Literal Translation) "How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations."

Thought this was interesting too..

Job 38:7 (KJV) "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

In Job 38:7, the KJV indicates that this is not just a title for Christ, as it is also given to other angelic beings.

Probably came from an older source.

"Light-bringer," Latin title for the Morning Star god who announced the daily birth of the sun..Cannanite called him Shaher, The Jeish Shaharit (Morning Service) still commemorates him. Shaher's twin brother Shalem, the Evening Star, announced the daily death of the sun and spoke to him the Word of peace (Hebrew shalom, Arabic Salaam)..Shaleem was worshipped along with his brother in Jerusalem, which means "House of Shalem." Shaher and Shalem were the same as the Greeks Dioscuri or Heavenly Twins, Castor and Pollux, born of Leda World Egg...Cannanite myth said Shaher coveted the superior glory of the sun god and tried to usurp his thrown...Pagan scriptures of the 7th century BC include a dirge for the fallen Morning Star:

How hast thou fallen from heaven, Helel's son Shaher! Thou didst say in thy heart, I will ascend to heaven, above the circumpolar stars I will raise my thrown, and I will dwell on the Mount of Council in the back of the north, I will mount on the back of a cloud, I will be like unto Elyon..

Centuries later, a Jewish scribe copied this Canaanite scripture into the Bible and pretended it was written by Isaiah..Quoting Isaiah 14:12-14

So my poll was flawed because I didn't have all the choices, but kept it Biblical only.

The point I wanted to get across in my posts is that son of dawn and morning star are totally different in description. Now, as the post mentioned, morning star was a mix up in translation from hebrew to the NIV. It was originally son of morning...and in revelation, Jesus does not call himself son of morning, he calls himself the bright and morning star.

Originally posted by DirectorFitz
The point I wanted to get across in my posts is that son of dawn and morning star are totally different in description. Now, as the post mentioned, morning star was a mix up in translation from hebrew to the NIV. It was originally son of morning...and in revelation, Jesus does not call himself son of morning, he calls himself the bright and morning star.

I understand your point...But why is this information found in earlier records like the one I've just mentioned?.....

This one.

"Light-bringer," Latin title for the Morning Star god who announced the daily birth of the sun..Cannanite called him Shaher, The Jeish Shaharit (Morning Service) still commemorates him. Shaher's twin brother Shalem, the Evening Star, announced the daily death of the sun and spoke to him the Word of peace (Hebrew shalom, Arabic Salaam)..Shaleem was worshipped along with his brother in Jerusalem, which means "House of Shalem." Shaher and Shalem were the same as the Greeks Dioscuri or Heavenly Twins, Castor and Pollux, born of Leda World Egg...Cannanite myth said Shaher coveted the superior glory of the sun god and tried to usurp his thrown...Pagan scriptures of the 7th century BC include a dirge for the fallen Morning Star:

How hast thou fallen from heaven, Helel's son Shaher! Thou didst say in thy heart, I will ascend to heaven, above the circumpolar stars I will raise my thrown, and I will dwell on the Mount of Council in the back of the north, I will mount on the back of a cloud, I will be like unto Elyon..

Centuries later, a Jewish scribe copied this Canaanite scripture into the Bible and pretended it was written by Isaiah..Quoting Isaiah 14:12-14

So, what's this all about....It came first...

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

JESUS

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations Isa 14:12

Originally posted by debbiejo


How hast thou fallen from heaven, Helel's son Shaher! Thou didst say in thy heart, I will ascend to heaven, above the circumpolar stars I will raise my thrown, and I will dwell on the Mount of Council in the back of the north, I will mount on the back of a cloud, I will be like unto Elyon..

Centuries later, a Jewish scribe copied this Canaanite scripture into the Bible and pretended it was written by Isaiah..Quoting Isaiah 14:12-14



INCASE SOMEONE DIDN'T CATCH THS.

Originally posted by finti
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations Isa 14:12

ISAIAH WAS COPIED.

Isaiah 14:12-14
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: . . . I will be like the most High."

Whooooo Kabala in the end there...Kether into life in Malkut...Kether the source all the way down the Tree of Life.. Kether to Chokman ( Father), Binah(Mother), Geborah, Chesed, Tepheret( Christ like, inner mastery, balance, harmony), Hod (mind), Netzah( Intuition), Yosod(Inner creator or beliefs..womb of creations, blue prints)...to Malkut..(earth, and life experiences.)

just had to do it once more to highlight a point made earlier

Well maybe someone will catch it this time.....

I have my doubts

One conclusion appearing to be natural that has been over looked is that the "son of the morning" and "bright morning star" are interelated but not referring to the same thing.

ex: Son of the Morning = following or descending from the morning.
Morning represents light, or more specificly the light of the sun. The Sun as a metaphor, however inappropriate due to its limiting nature, has also been seen as being representative of the Almighty. Humans are commonly seen by a great many as children of God. Angels have been identified by many as the spiritual representation of us who have "ascended" to be with the Almighty. Lucifer, originally being a child of God and the most exhaulted angel before, in affect, be described as "the son of the morning".

Using this logic, it is more than quite concievable that he was a worship leader touting the praise & coming of the Almighty, and being a musician or having the angelic equivalent of what might be called in the christian church "Minister of Music" makes a great deal of sense. As the "minister of music" with in the christian church helps to initiate the worship service. Why is that signficant? Similar to a Standard Bearers & Drum corps in ancient armies, they announce the coming of the main attraction or Priest, and provide praise to the cause, in this cause the worship of the Almighty.

The son of the morning, morning star, or Venus is visable prior to the full rise of the sun and reflects its light. Mix it all together and what you have? Lucifers primary function was to reflect the Almighty's light to the world. The moment he began to "attempt to broadcast" his own light, he was kicked out of heaven. He could not be described as the son of God without a great deal of confusion. So, the son of the morning moniker stuck. Christ being The Messiah who would be responsible for reflecting the Almighty's light to the world, would also be described as the morning star but a distinction had to be made for he could not be placed in the same category of Lucifer. How does one resolve this? Enter "The Bright Morning Star". But this still does not elminate Lucifer from the picture nor does it completely resolved the issue. Enter "Son of the Morning" & "Prince of Darkness" titles. Now there is separation. Is it efficient -- No. Is it accurate, who knows. One thing is for sure; this line of thinking DOES follow human tendancy for carving out what they want.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Is it Lucifer....

Is it Jesus.....

.. lucifer means bright morning star, which isaiah called hte babylonian king. it was mention of babylonian sun worship. lucifer is ishtar or venus.

* ms.debbiejo, i think you are very biased, or if not, you got double-standards...

* we've talked about Isaiah 14:12-14 before and you insisted that the one involved was not Lucifer/Satan but the king of Babylon...

* now, when you read Revelation 22:16 that Christ is the morning star, you back-pedalled and accepted that it was Lucifer/Satan who was in Isaiah 14:12-14 as the morning star...

* and ultimately claiming and implying that Christ and Satan are one... i'm not shocked, really... your true colors are revealed, do you realize the spirit of an anti-Christ?

* to answer the poll: Satan WAS A morning star and Christ IS THE morning star...

Originally posted by peejayd
* ms.debbiejo, i think you are very biased, or if not, you got double-standards...

* we've talked about Isaiah 14:12-14 before and you insisted that the one involved was not Lucifer/Satan but the king of Babylon...

Because it was, what nations does satan rule, what kids does he have?
Isaiah even said he was talking about the king of baylon.


Originally posted by peejayd
*
* now, when you read Revelation 22:16 that Christ is the morning star, you back-pedalled and accepted that it was Lucifer/Satan who was in Isaiah 14:12-14 as the morning star...

* and ultimately claiming and implying that Christ and Satan are one... i'm not shocked, really... your true colors are revealed, do you realize the spirit of an anti-Christ?

* to answer the poll: Satan WAS A morning star and Christ IS THE morning star... You do know that the new and old testament contradict?

Venus for me.

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
Because it was, what nations does satan rule, what kids does he have?
Isaiah even said he was talking about the king of baylon.

* is the king of Babylon and Satan one?

* ms.debbiejo insists earlier that Isaiah 14:12-14 was NOT about Satan but the king of Babylon... that's where her conflict lies...

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
You do know that the new and old testament contradict?

* it does NOT, as i've said: Satan WAS A morning star and Christ IS THE morning star... getz?

Originally posted by DirectorFitz
The point I wanted to get across in my posts is that son of dawn and morning star are totally different in description. Now, as the post mentioned, morning star was a mix up in translation from hebrew to the NIV. It was originally son of morning...and in revelation, Jesus does not call himself son of morning, he calls himself the bright and morning star.

Once again Dfeezy you have rightly divided the Word of God. Good job!

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth .

The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
13:1

That was the introduction,isaiah was talking about babylon and it's king


And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. 13:19


more proof it's about babylon.


14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


What nations did satan cut?

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
13:1

That was the introduction,isaiah was talking about babylon and it's king


And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. 13:19


more proof it's about babylon.


14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


What nations did satan cut?

Who is the DEVIL?
BY DAVID C. PACK
http://www.thercg.org/books/witd.ht...CFTScJAodfRVqTg

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
13:1

That was the introduction,isaiah was talking about babylon and it's king


And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. 13:19


more proof it's about babylon.


14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


What nations did satan cut?
Many of the prophecies of the OT had two meanings, one meant for their current time and one for the future. In answer to your last question, I believe that this passage is an allusion to Satan being cast down to earth by God and that Satan's influence in the world weakened all the nations.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Many of the prophecies of the OT had two meanings, one meant for their current time and one for the future. In answer to your last question, I believe that this passage is an allusion to Satan being cast down to earth by God and that Satan's influence in the world weakened all the nations.

I find it more plausible that they had no meaning for the future.

That is always a possibility. Sometimes it is hard to tell which ones were meant for the future.

I believe it is a title. Satan held it until he fell.

Originally posted by Nellinator
That is always a possibility. Sometimes it is hard to tell which ones were meant for the future.

That is the problem, isn't it. I think the bible says one thing and you think it say another. God never makes it clear.

That is why we need faith in addition to what we can see and rationalize. God wants us to believe and then know not know and then believe. Some people have a hard time with that concept, but I find it just ducky.

Originally posted by Nellinator
That is why we need faith in addition to what we can see and rationalize. God wants us to believe and then know not know and then believe. Some people have a hard time with that concept, but I find it just ducky.

Yes, and I think there are a lot more important things to do, in life, them sit around and contemplate an end days, that may never come in your life time.

The end days should be of no significance to Christians. We must live a life full of love, grace, mercy, patience, joy, and good works under the acceptance of Jesus's sacrifice and then we will not have to worry about our eternity. We must concentrate on doing God's will in our life. We must focus on what he have control over (our lives) rather than contemplating what we have no control over.

Originally posted by Nellinator
The end days should be of no significance to Christians. We must live a life full of love, grace, mercy, patience, joy, and good works under the acceptance of Jesus's sacrifice and then we will not have to worry about our eternity. We must concentrate on doing God's will in our life. We must focus on what he have control over (our lives) rather than contemplating what we have no control over.

Then why all the fire and brimstone, and end of days, teaching going on in the evangelical Christian churches?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then why all the fire and brimstone, and end of days, teaching going on in the evangelical Christian churches?
They don't understand what it means to be Christian, and they are only worried about what happens to them in the end.

Originally posted by Regret
They don't understand what it means to be Christian, and they are only worried about what happens to them in the end.

In other words, they are selfish.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
In other words, they are selfish.

Yes, and very poor at conversion.

Originally posted by Regret
Yes, and very poor at conversion.

You guys are no fun...

Were did JesusIsAlive go?bash

Exactly.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You guys are no fun...

Were did JesusIsAlive go?bash

Are you saying we use the brains we have to reason through our beliefs?

Originally posted by Regret
Are you saying we use the brains we have to reason through our beliefs?



I wouldn't go that far.

Originally posted by peejayd
* is the king of Babylon and Satan one?

* ms.debbiejo insists earlier that Isaiah 14:12-14 was NOT about Satan but the king of Babylon... that's where her conflict lies...



* it does NOT, as i've said: Satan WAS A morning star and Christ IS THE morning star... getz? Yes, see how paganism has snook into the OT and the NT...it is both Jesus and Satan, but really Venus....Though the king of Babylon is mention in scriptures as metaphorical....

http://www.godrules.net/library/kjv/kjvisa14.htm

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is the problem, isn't it. I think the bible says one thing and you think it say another. God never makes it clear.


I was just about to say the samething, I swear people always do that.
Thanks shaky for pointing that out.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Yes, see how paganism has snook into the OT and the NT...it is both Jesus and Satan, but really Venus....Though the king of Babylon is mention in scriptures as metaphorical....

http://www.godrules.net/library/kjv/kjvisa14.htm

* we have talked about this earlier, ms.debbiejo... you insisted that the one mentioned in Isaiah 14:12-14, that it was not Satan but the king of Babylon...

* but now, you back-pedalled and accepted that it really was Satan to correlate Satan and Christ as the "morning star"... please explain your double-standards...

Explain further with the actual whole Story of where that verse comes from please....


Post the whole chapter and we will dissect it if you like...

- Ms debbiejo

Originally posted by debbiejo
Explain further with the actual whole Story of where that verse comes from please....


Post the whole chapter and we will dissect it if you like...

- Ms debbiejo

I already posted the introduction, which starts on chapter 13. unless people want me to post the book of isaiah. like I said before, the only time satan becomes a literary character is during the book of jobs.

I will look.........