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It is said that we are tested in all that we do.

Why does God test us? What's the point? It seems like a very mean thing to do.

god tests us so we can get stronger

we are supposed to be happy when we get these tests because they bring us to the next level spiritually

Life is a test.

Not known fore sure.....But .................something.,.....and you have to ask why,...........??????


What if................

So it's free will, and he test us. How does he test ? Does he make scenarios ?

To help us grow.

Originally posted by BlackC@t
Why does God test us?
If you'd lived for billions upon billions of years you'd want to find a way to amuse yourself too.

"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when He rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those He loves, and He punishes everyone He accepts as a son." Proverbs 3:11, 12

"Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and are not true sons." Hebrews 12:7, 8

"Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in His holiness. No discipline seems pleasent at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." Hebrews 12:10, 11

God does not test us, we test ourselves.

Originally posted by ska57
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when He rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those He loves, and He punishes everyone He accepts as a son." Proverbs 3:11, 12

"Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and are not true sons." Hebrews 12:7, 8

"Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in His holiness. No discipline seems pleasent at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." Hebrews 12:10, 11

You're scary..boxed2

So god punishes us because god loves us???...WE get a hellish life because we can share in his holiness?

Originally posted by debbiejo
You're scary..boxed2

So god punishes us because god loves us???...WE get a hellish life because we can share in his holiness?

As was quoted from earlier, "No discipline seems pleasent at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."

Originally posted by ska57
As was quoted from earlier, "No discipline seems pleasent at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."

This sounds like a cult of the suffering.

yeah christians

Originally posted by BlackC@t
It is said that we are tested in all that we do.

Why does God test us? What's the point? It seems like a very mean thing to do.

I never understood that notion either.

If god created us, and he is perfect, then surely we should be perfect too, no?
Why would a perfect being create imperfect things?

to feel superior?

Originally posted by ska57
As was quoted from earlier, "No discipline seems pleasent at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."

I know what the doctrine is, but it still doesn't make sense...why discipline at all...If according to scripture we are flawed, then why wouldn't a god have compassion on the unstable nature of humans?
After all, it is an all powerful, all knowing god...

BTW...I've seen people who have gone through this "discipline" and totally get ugly....it didn't produce a wonderful harvest of righteousness.

Originally posted by debbiejo
I know what the doctrine is, but it still doesn't make sense...why discipline at all...

"If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and are not true sons."

Originally posted by debbiejo
If according to scripture we are flawed, then why wouldn't a god have compassion on the unstable nature of humans?
After all, it is an all powerful, all knowing god...

God did have compassion on humans. We deserve hell, all of us, so God sent Christ to take our place. His death bridged the gap for those who believe in Him, there in no seperation, if we would only have faith and cross that gap, we are saved from eternity in hell and spend eternity in heaven with God.

Originally posted by debbiejo
BTW...I've seen people who have gone through this "discipline" and totally get ugly....it didn't produce a wonderful harvest of righteousness.

I heard a sermon about this. Here's the illustration he used: There was a man on a plane and the flight attendant gave him a parachute. The man asked why she gave him the parachute and she said "To make the flight more enjoyable." So the man gladly wore the parachute. But, others on the plane started to make fun of him and told him how stupid he looked in that parachute. Then the flight attendant spilled some hot coffee on the man so he immediatly took the parachute off because it was not making his flight better.
Now there was another man on that flight, the flight attendant told him to put on a parachute and when the man asked why the attendant said "To save your life when the plane starts to go down and you jump 30,000 feet in the air." So the man gladly put on the parachute. Others started to make fun of him and told him how stupid he looked in that parachute. But he didn't care; this parachute will save his life. Then the flight attendant spilled some hot coffee on the man, but he didn't take off the steaming coffee stained parachute, because he knew he needed it to save him from the upcoming 30,000 foot jump.
So eventually the plane experienced some electrical failure causing all the engines to stop, the plane was going to crash. The man with the parachute jumps out of the plane and is saved, while the other man that took off the parachute could not and died with all the others on the plane that did not have a parachute. (I hope I spelled 'parachute' right)

The parachute in this illustration represents becoming a Christian. While some may think that having Jesus in their life will make everything better and take all your problems away, make your life "better", they do so with that in mind. But Jesus said the exact opposite and that you will undergo trials, tribulations, tests and all men will hate you because of Him (the coffee represented the trials in life). So some people loose their religion because of this. The man that put on the parachute because he knew it would save his life looked beyond his short time on the plane (our years on this world) and stayed focused on the jump (life beyond death, heaven).

Is this a test?

aint it all?

OHHHHHHHHH....I always do badly at tests......I always answer "Other"....I think outside the box.....I confuse my teachers...I have a rebellious spirit....I have multiple personalities....

Originally posted by ska57
The parachute in this illustration represents becoming a Christian. While some may think that having Jesus in their life will make everything better and take all your problems away, make your life "better", they do so with that in mind. But Jesus said the exact opposite and that you will undergo trials, tribulations, tests and all men will hate you because of Him (the coffee represented the trials in life). So some people loose their religion because of this. The man that put on the parachute because he knew it would save his life looked beyond his short time on the plane (our years on this world) and stayed focused on the jump (life beyond death, heaven).
Great example! I have heard this once before but it was nice to hear it again. Christainity to many people are a huge burden but they would rather have a few years of pleasure and free will on earth as apose to everlasting life with God.

Originally posted by finti
to feel superior?

But such being is already perfect and thus already superiour. The need to feel superiour is of those who are nothing.

You're in Brazil now......?????...Man you get around....

Originally posted by ska57
"If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and are not true sons."



God did have compassion on humans. We deserve hell, all of us, so God sent Christ to take our place. His death bridged the gap for those who believe in Him, there in no seperation, if we would only have faith and cross that gap, we are saved from eternity in hell and spend eternity in heaven with God.



I heard a sermon about this. Here's the illustration he used: There was a man on a plane and the flight attendant gave him a parachute. The man asked why she gave him the parachute and she said "To make the flight more enjoyable." So the man gladly wore the parachute. But, others on the plane started to make fun of him and told him how stupid he looked in that parachute. Then the flight attendant spilled some hot coffee on the man so he immediatly took the parachute off because it was not making his flight better.
Now there was another man on that flight, the flight attendant told him to put on a parachute and when the man asked why the attendant said "To save your life when the plane starts to go down and you jump 30,000 feet in the air." So the man gladly put on the parachute. Others started to make fun of him and told him how stupid he looked in that parachute. But he didn't care; this parachute will save his life. Then the flight attendant spilled some hot coffee on the man, but he didn't take off the steaming coffee stained parachute, because he knew he needed it to save him from the upcoming 30,000 foot jump.
So eventually the plane experienced some electrical failure causing all the engines to stop, the plane was going to crash. The man with the parachute jumps out of the plane and is saved, while the other man that took off the parachute could not and died with all the others on the plane that did not have a parachute. (I hope I spelled 'parachute' right)

The parachute in this illustration represents becoming a Christian. While some may think that having Jesus in their life will make everything better and take all your problems away, make your life "better", they do so with that in mind. But Jesus said the exact opposite and that you will undergo trials, tribulations, tests and all men will hate you because of Him (the coffee represented the trials in life). So some people loose their religion because of this. The man that put on the parachute because he knew it would save his life looked beyond his short time on the plane (our years on this world) and stayed focused on the jump (life beyond death, heaven). excellent, im very impressed bro.

god test us to test our faith. that is really the easiest way to put it.

If you belived in god and had great faith in him, and he gave you evrything you ever wanted because you believed in him. and then in one breif moment took it all away from you brutally and quickly, would you still belive in him then, or would you forsake him in you ur blind belief that he has forsaken you?

and one of you asked why you had lived such a hellish life? where did you get that misconception. if you think god is giving you hell... you are truly lost. life is isnt all bout material possesion and getting what you want when you want it. (im not saying thats how you define a hellish life)


and some misguided people seem to think if they pray to god they'll get what they want. and if they dont get it, then oh well he must not exist.

god answers prayers, but sometimes the answer is "no"

and god does give. jus cuz he dosent give right away dosent mean he wont give at all.

the world says "see it to belive it" but god says "believe it to see it"


its all about faith guys. god really dosent ask much. and he only test the ones who belive in him. dont blame a "hellish life" on him. god dosent conrtol ur life, you do.

if you had the power to do anything, why would you share or give to anyone who didnt belive in you?

If God was all-knowing, He would not need to test anyone.

Well, AP that really doesn' hold, here is why...

Why do Teachers constanly apply tests to their students? Teachers already know the answers to the questions, so why test them? Simple, the teachers want their students to learn and understand. Only through education can a student really comprehend things.

Apply all that above to the all knowing being which is God. If God is testing us, is because he/she/it wants us to learn and understand. Whatever might be that God wants us to learn...the testing is necessary. At least that is one way I can see reason behind God's tests.

difference is that student seem to graduate from school and testings

Originally posted by WindDancer
Well, AP that really doesn' hold, here is why...

Why do Teachers constanly apply tests to their students? Teachers already know the answers to the questions, so why test them? Simple, the teachers want their students to learn and understand. Only through education can a student really comprehend things.

Apply all that above to the all knowing being which is God. If God is testing us, is because he/she/it wants us to learn and understand. Whatever might be that God wants us to learn...the testing is necessary. At least that is one way I can see reason behind God's tests.

The teacher may already know all of the answers to the questions, but the test is not determine what the teacher knows but what the students have learned.

An all-knowing God would not have to test humans to determine what they have learned because He would already know.

indeed

Originally posted by Jack of Clubs

if you had the power to do anything, why would you share or give to anyone who didnt belive in you?

If I were all powerful...I would know their limitations and thus ask nothing of them....only help them to be what they already are...a great creation...made in my image....

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The teacher may already know all of the answers to the questions, but the test is not determine what the teacher knows but what the students have learned.

An all-knowing God would not have to test humans to determine what they have learned because He would already know.

That's exactly my point. The ultimate goal is that we must learn. Now, what is more important for an individual? The reasons why an all-knowing God test us? or What you will learn from those tests? If you chose the former you're trying to understand God's logic (good luck with that) and you consider that to be more important. If you chose the latter then you're satisfied with what you will learn from the tests. And quite simply the latter is more important for an individual.

and the tests go on everyday of your life then

I see it more as a daily evaluation.

how wasteful

Originally posted by WindDancer
I see it more as a daily evaluation.

I believe that God never tests us. The tests that we are talking about are all in our heads, it is cause and effect, and the challenges we face everyday is just living. Also, to say that God does not test us, is not to say the God doesn't care. The blood in your body faces tests and challenges every day, do you expose yourself to certain diseases to test your blood?

Why would something soooooooooooooo intellegent or something have to give test????? Doesn't make since....There are better ways of learning.....

yeah like sexual habits of the opposite sex at college

Well............that takes practice.......practice makes perfect....

yeah it sure did

Soooooooooo you say.......

so they say

Originally posted by finti
so they say

So to much has been said.

for some yes

Talking talking talking.........Let's drink tea and talk about fintis sex life.

Originally posted by WindDancer
That's exactly my point. The ultimate goal is that we must learn. Now, what is more important for an individual? The reasons why an all-knowing God test us? or What you will learn from those tests? If you chose the former you're trying to understand God's logic (good luck with that) and you consider that to be more important. If you chose the latter then you're satisfied with what you will learn from the tests. And quite simply the latter is more important for an individual.

You can trump any argument by saying that "no one can understand gods logic".

Beyond that, when you ask someone a question...knowing full well what their answer will be, then you aren't testing...your proving yourself right.

Originally posted by WindDancer
That's exactly my point. The ultimate goal is that we must learn. Now, what is more important for an individual? The reasons why an all-knowing God test us? or What you will learn from those tests? If you chose the former you're trying to understand God's logic (good luck with that) and you consider that to be more important. If you chose the latter then you're satisfied with what you will learn from the tests. And quite simply the latter is more important for an individual.

Tests are an evaluation, not a lesson.

Why do we think we are being tested?

To see if you will be faithful in the earth made new! God forbid, that sin should arise a second time and destroy everything in its path.

For a cute little Bunny, you sure are silly......How can sin destroy everything in it's path???? What path....is there a certain one it should stay on..I'm confused, what if there's a fork in the road...

Originally posted by svnthdysthsbbth
To see if you will be faithful in the earth made new! God forbid, that sin should arise a second time and destroy everything in its path.

This is earth made new, this is heaven.

then heaven is nothing

NO...you can apply your creative nature to make this a type of heaven....but heaven is just a change in location and form...Not at all what is portrayed....

Originally posted by finti
difference is that student seem to graduate from school and testings
Yes , but graduating from school does not mean that life now turns to a joyride because what you've learned always influences or shape your life further on and after school there is colledge, jobs, relationships, marriage, etc the testing goes on and on. It is what you learn from it that is important. By "passing" the tests from God (or even sometimes Satan), we grow stronger spiritually and become more steadfast in God's ways. The Bible speaks of us being like babies drinking "mothers milk" and gradually being introduced to "food" as we grow spiritually, as we study God's word, as we implement regular prayer times until graduation comes when Christ returns.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The teacher may already know all of the answers to the questions, but the test is not determine what the teacher knows but what the students have learned.

An all-knowing God would not have to test humans to determine what they have learned because He would already know.
Most students do not have a clue of what they know or don't know untill they have been tested. God knows us well but we need to "stand the test of time" in regards to our faith.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Talking talking talking.........Let's drink tea and talk about fintis sex life.
Pleaaaase....., Im already trying to cope with the nausea (you know), I don't need this to make it any worse!!!!

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
You can trump any argument by saying that "no one can understand gods logic".

Beyond that, when you ask someone a question...knowing full well what their answer will be, then you aren't testing...your proving yourself right.
And that makes god incredibly narcissistic... of course that shouldn't really come as a surprise now should it...

Originally posted by sonnet
Yes , but graduating from school does not mean that life now turns to a joyride because what you've learned always influences or shape your life further on and after school there is colledge, jobs, relationships, marriage, etc the testing goes on and on. It is what you learn from it that is important. By "passing" the tests from God (or even sometimes Satan), we grow stronger spiritually and become more steadfast in God's ways. The Bible speaks of us being like babies drinking "mothers milk" and gradually being introduced to "food" as we grow spiritually, as we study God's word, as we implement regular prayer times until graduation comes when Christ returns.
Any "testing" from god at any point in time in someone's life is redundant. An all-knowing god should already know the outcome.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Any "testing" from god at any point in time in someone's life is redundant. An all-knowing god should already know the outcome.
As it was already said by some earlier, God only tests those who believe and show faith in Him or will allow them to be tested, so you need not to worry about the tests, and can stop maoning about it also. Without faith in God you can not ever understand the principle of God or His thoughts and reasons.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Any "testing" from god at any point in time in someone's life is redundant. An all-knowing god should already know the outcome.

YES...an all knowing god would know this...

There are no test...It's all a learning experience of reaping and sowing from your action or deeds...That's the best way to learn...You do it until you do it right...Practice makes perfect!...

OTHERWISE

Originally posted by finti
how wasteful

Originally posted by debbiejo
I know what the doctrine is, but it still doesn't make sense...why discipline at all...If according to scripture we are flawed, then why wouldn't a god have compassion on the unstable nature of humans?
After all, it is an all powerful, all knowing god...

Why do you associate the test with not having compassion? If you overcome the test you become better mentally and spiritually. If He didn't have compassion He would withhold this from you and leave you in a lowly childish state.

Originally posted by debbiejo
BTW...I've seen people who have gone through this "discipline" and totally get ugly....it didn't produce a wonderful harvest of righteousness.

If you fail the test then you are punished. The true danger is if you don't know this. If you know and understand the nature of the tests we normally face in life, you would be more apt to patiently persevere without complaint (which is how you win and pass the tests).

How cruel.

Not everybody can handle these so called tests. So, a weakened mind, which god made, is put to the same tests as someone who is much stronger? How is that fair. Especially if god knows the outcome already? It makes no sense at all. And, if you get a failing grade for committing suicide, which some of these tests cost some, how is that just?

Sounds more like torture to me, on the innocent, who has done nothing to displease such a being.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
How cruel.

Not everybody can handle these so called tests. So, a weakened mind, which god made, is put to the same tests as someone who is much stronger? How is that fair. Especially if god knows the outcome already? It makes no sense at all. And, if you get a failing grade for committing suicide, which some of these tests cost some, how is that just?

Sounds more like torture to me, on the innocent, who has done nothing to displease such a being.

God doesn't put a burden on anyone greater than they can handle, and He knows best what each of us can handle.

It's up to us to stay positive and pass. Cruelty would be to leave us alone to stagnate in an elementary stage. You only displease Him when you give in to innate weakness we all possess and fail the test.

God's knowing the future doesn't have anything to do with how you perform. You're the one that needs to pass the tests of life not Him.

Originally posted by MRasheed
He knows best what each of us can handle.


Then why give us the test? The point of a test is to clock your performance. if you already know know what someone's level is, then there is no point in giving a test.

Originally posted by BlackC@
Why does God test us?

The same reason ANY omnipotent deity would challenges his creations.
For the lulz.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Then why give us the test? The point of a test is to clock your performance.

The point of this test is to determine who is worthy of heaven and who is hellbound.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Then why give us the test? The point of a test is to clock your performance. if you already know know what someone's level is, then there is no point in giving a test. I agree.

It would be pointless to an all knowing, all powerful being. Why not just enjoy your creations, accept what you have made. A god made them, right? Then why not enjoy them. If you don't like what you have made, then give them some help in a loving way.

If god, in knowing the future, saw that some killed themselves, then why do it to them?

Weird.

Originally posted by MRasheed
The point of this test is to determine who is worthy of heaven and who is hellbound.

But God is omnipotent and omniscient and already knows who is worthy of heaven and who isn't. There's no point in giving a test because he knows what has what is and what will be. It's like a teacher giving a student a test already knowing he's going to get an F. It's pointless.

inb4 "God works in mysterious ways".

He's not.

Originally posted by majjacet
god tests us so we can get stronger

and see if we are tempted by sin.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
But God is omnipotent and omniscient and already knows who is worthy of heaven and who isn't. There's no point in giving a test because he knows what has what is and what will be. It's like a teacher giving a student a test already knowing he's going to get an F. It's pointless.

It's not pointless for YOU. God's knowing power doesn't have anything to do with YOUR salvation, and YOUR choices in life, and quality of YOUR existence spent in the afterlife forever. If you chose a life of right or wrong God will know either way, and will judge you accordingly. He will also know every remote detail of each circumstance down to your very thoughts at the time, and will thus know how much mecy/forgiveness to apply to each situation. That's the benefit of His knowing the future. Other than that, what happens is still 100% up to you.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
"God works in mysterious ways".

He does, but in this particular case, His ways are pretty straght forward: Obey him and prosper, disbelieve and be hellbound.

Originally posted by MRasheed
He does, but in this particular case, His ways are pretty straght forward: Obey him and prosper, disbelieve and be hellbound.

how do you define the terms merciful and benevolent?

Originally posted by MRasheed
It's not pointless for YOU. God's knowing power doesn't have anything to do with YOUR salvation, and YOUR choices in life, and quality of YOUR existence spent in the afterlife forever. If you chose a life of right or wrong God will know either way, and will judge you accordingly. He will also know every remote detail of each circumstance down to your very thoughts at the time, and will thus know how much mecy/forgiveness to apply to each situation. That's the benefit of His knowing the future. Other than that, what happens is still 100% up to you.

How does this allow for choice if we are simply moving along a predetermined path? If God knows everything we will do and what will happen to us, then essentially we are just actors guided by a script already written. We have the illusion of free will because walking around all day telling yourself that you have no free will would make for an interesting lifestyle.

Originally posted by inimalist
how do you define the terms merciful and benevolent?

mercy act of forgiving or not punishing someone. the act of forgiving someone or not treating them severely, especially someone who you have the authority to punish

benevolent generous and willing to help people. willing to help and be generous toward people

Originally posted by Lucius
How does this allow for choice if we are simply moving along a predetermined path?

You are not on a predetermined path. God is not a part of the time stream. He created it. He knows what you are going to do by His nature. This does not affect your ability to choose.

Originally posted by Lucius
If God knows everything we will do and what will happen to us, then essentially we are just actors guided by a script already written.

The Big Picture and overall destiny of the universe is already written on the grand scale, but your individual part is written only as you make your choices.

Originally posted by Lucius
We have the illusion of free will because walking around all day telling yourself that you have no free will would make for an interesting lifestyle.

It's not an illusion. You are free to do as you will; choose Good as you please, or choose Bad as you please.

Originally posted by MRasheed
mercy act of forgiving or not punishing someone. the act of forgiving someone or not treating them severely, especially someone who you have the authority to punish

benevolent generous and willing to help people. willing to help and be generous toward people

are these qualities you ascribe to God/Allah?

Originally posted by MRasheed
You are not on a predetermined path. God is not a part of the time stream. He created it. He knows what you are going to do by His nature. This does not affect your ability to choose.

That's just the point. If I'm at T1 and God knows that at T2 I'll will commit action A, how is there a choice to commit anything but action A regardless if action A is "good" or "evil?"

Saying that God is outside of the time stream like some extra-cosmic observer looking at all points of existence at all points in time only makes the problem even worse.

Originally posted by MRasheed
The Big Picture and overall destiny of the universe is already written on the grand scale, but your individual part is written only as you make your choices.

So, I'm too small to have a pixel on the cosmic image?

Originally posted by MRasheed
It's not an illusion. You are free to do as you will; choose Good as you please, or choose Bad as you please.

This statement doesn't work until you find a way to resolve my above questions.

Originally posted by inimalist
are these qualities you ascribe to God/Allah?

God is The Most Merciful of those who practice mercy, and The Most Benevolent of those who practice benevolence.

Originally posted by MRasheed
You are not on a predetermined path. God is not a part of the time stream. He created it. He knows what you are going to do by His nature. This does not affect your ability to choose.

Originally posted by Lucius
That's just the point. If I'm at T1 and God knows that at T2 I'll will commit action A, how is there a choice to commit anything but action A regardless if action A is "good" or "evil?"

And how does God knowing affect your decision? Why would it? You could've just as easily NOT chose to post in this thread, but God would've known either way. His knowing was not involved in that decision process.

Originally posted by Lucius
Saying that God is outside of the time stream like some extra-cosmic observer looking at all points of existence at all points in time only makes the problem even worse.

In what way? Considering He is not a part of His creation. He created it from scratch, the very concept of time, and is not bound by those rules unless it pleases Him to be.

Originally posted by MRasheed
The Big Picture and overall destiny of the universe is already written on the grand scale, but your individual part is written only as you make your choices.

Originally posted by Lucius
So, I'm too small to have a pixel on the cosmic image?

YOU are. j/k

Originally posted by MRasheed
It's not an illusion. You are free to do as you will; choose Good as you please, or choose Bad as you please.

Originally posted by Lucius
This statement doesn't work until you find a way to resolve my above questions.

It doesn't work for who? I'm 100% fine with it. I'm a believer. I don't believe for a second that God is bound by the rules of space/time in any way, shape or form that it would affect or alter our Free Will. There is no problem except what you are struggling with in your own understanding. It is you who need to resolve it, not me.

Originally posted by MRasheed
God is The Most Merciful of those who practice mercy, and The Most Benevolent of those who practice benevolence.

how do you reconcile that with the eternal damnation of good people who don't believe?

for instance: I don't condemn those who believe different than I, I would rather negotiate than fight, I see no reason for those who don't agree with what I believe in to suffer. By definition, God must be more merciful and benevolent than I, so why would he not be able to see past issues of ideology and into the core of a person's value?

Originally posted by inimalist
how do you reconcile that with the eternal damnation of good people who don't believe?

for instance: I don't condemn those who believe different than I, I would rather negotiate than fight, I see no reason for those who don't agree with what I believe in to suffer. By definition, God must be more merciful and benevolent than I, so why would he not be able to see past issues of ideology and into the core of a person's value?

'Good people' obey the Lord that created them. There is no 'good' outside of that. You can't be good and not do what God said, that is not possible.

God is the one who said what is good and what is bad; the rules are His. Your arbitrary rules for what makes someone merciful/benevolent aren't anybody's standard, but God's are. He is the Judge who passes out rewards and punishments as He sees fit based on his superior understanding of all things, not you.

He is the Most Mericiful because He readily forgives the sins of those who repent and strive towards Him, and He forgives again and again. Who are you that your 'mercy' means anything to anyone? What authority do you possess that makes your 'mercy' anywhere near as potent as the Mercy of the Lord of all the Worlds?

so "believe in me or suffer eternally" as an axiom is mercy to you?

So as long as you do good, you don't have to believe in god? There is no good outside of god?

Also the Bible says that "Good and evil" were created by god. So, god created evil and since the Bible states that everything is created for gods own pleasure, he must enjoy that??

Originally posted by Lucius
So, I'm too small to have a pixel on the cosmic image?

That's gold, Jerry. Gold.

Originally posted by inimalist
so "believe in me or suffer eternally" as an axiom is mercy to you?

No, that's an axiom of justice. Mercy is when he forgives me when I make mistakes along the way in trying to please Him.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
So as long as you do good, you don't have to believe in god? There is no good outside of god?

Being good IS belief in God and obedience to Him.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Also the Bible says that "Good and evil" were created by god. So, god created evil and since the Bible states that everything is created for gods own pleasure, he must enjoy that??

God did not create evil. He created the folk who choose to perform evil deeds. Evil is brought into the world by the men and women who chose to act it out on earth. God created them, He did not create their deeds.

Originally posted by MRasheed
No, that's an axiom of justice. Mercy is when he forgives me when I make mistakes along the way in trying to please Him.

so why wouldn't he forgive a nonbeliever?

Originally posted by inimalist
so why wouldn't he forgive a nonbeliever?

You just need to see her face, dude.

Originally posted by inimalist
so why wouldn't he forgive a nonbeliever?

The nonbeliever rejected God and excludes himself from the mercy of God. Those are the rules. You want a heaping helping of the largest dose of mercy in the universe?

Believe.

Originally posted by MRasheed
No, that's an axiom of justice. Mercy is when he forgives me when I make mistakes along the way in trying to please Him.

I don't think a God that is infinitely unjust is a good thing either.

Originally posted by MRasheed
The nonbeliever rejected God and excludes himself from the mercy of God. Those are the rules. You want a heaping helping of the largest dose of mercy in the universe?

Believe.

but how is it benevolent to deny mercy to someone based on their beliefs?

as humans we see this as benevolent, and if God is supposed to be the most benevolent of all, how could he behave differently?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I don't think a God that is infinitely unjust is a good thing either.

lol God is not unjust.

Originally posted by MRasheed
lol God is not unjust.

Only an infinitely terrible crime could ever entail and infinitely terrible punishment. And if, for some reason, God believe that disagreeing with him is infinitely terrible then he's unjust from a different direction.

Originally posted by MRasheed
The Holy Qur'an 4:79
(8) Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah, but whatever evil happens to thee, is from thy (own) soul. and We have sent thee as an apostle to (instruct) mankind. And enough is Allah for a witness.

The Holy Qur'an 4:110
(10) If any one does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks Allah's forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

No, He didn't. So, basically you are quoting the Qur'an and putting Jesus as the Lord and Savior?

I don't believe that the Qur'an believes that Jesus is the Savior, so why quote that book?

Cherry-picking.

Originally posted by inimalist
but how is it benevolent to deny mercy to someone based on their beliefs?

The light of His benevolence shines down when the proper requirements are met. Meet those requirements and all the benevolence in the universe is yours.

Originally posted by inimalist
as humans we see this as benevolent

I'm human. You meant to say, "As disbelievers?"

Originally posted by inimalist
...and if God is supposed to be the most benevolent of all, how could he behave differently?

Because how you see it is 100% irrelevant. Who cares how you see it? Do you make the rules? Are you the Judge? Do you dispense rewards/punishments to those who earned them? Then what value do your complaints possibly possess?

Originally posted by Robtard
Cherry-picking. It's also blasphemy.

Originally posted by MRasheed
The Holy Qur'an 4:79
(8) Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah, but whatever evil happens to thee, is from thy (own) soul. and We have sent thee as an apostle to (instruct) mankind. And enough is Allah for a witness.

I've known devout Christians that ended up with crippling dementia from Alzheimer's that caused them to try to drive away their loved ones in the months up until their body finally started deteriorating faster than their mind.

There is evil in the world that has nothing to do with free will.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Only an infinitely terrible crime could ever entail and infinitely terrible punishment. And if, for some reason, God believe that disagreeing with him is infinitely terrible then he's unjust from a different direction.

Worshipping anything other than the God who made you or otherwise engaging in disbelief is that very infinitely terrible crime.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I've known devout Christians that ended up with crippling dementia from Alzheimer's that caused them to try to drive away their loved ones in the months up until their body finally started deteriorating faster than their mind.

There is evil in the world that has nothing to do with free will.

That's not evil. That's the exact equivelant of getting slapped in the eye by a baby; they are not responsible for their actions.

Originally posted by MRasheed
Worshipping anything other than the God who made you or otherwise engaging in disbelief is that very infinitely terrible crime.

So then it would be morally imperative for you to kill anyone you can't convert, as doing so would leave infinite evil in the world. That's a scary religion and a horrible God.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
So, basically you are quoting the Qur'an and putting Jesus as the Lord and Savior?

I don't believe that the Qur'an believes that Jesus is the Savior, so why quote that book?

I am Muslim, Deja~vu. I reject the divine sonship of Jesus doctrine. The Qur'an is the last revelation of God and closes the canon of Sacred Scripture.

Originally posted by MRasheed
That's not evil. That's the exact equivelant of getting slapped in the eye by a baby; they are not responsible for their actions.

So God's excuse for giving people unimaginably horrible suffering is that he is too stupid and immature to know what he's doing? Seems more like worshiping Azathoth than anything else.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So then it would be morally imperative for you to kill anyone you can't convert, as doing so would leave infinite evil in the world.

lol

No, as long as you have breath you have the option of beliving and receiving your reward from the Lord.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That's a scary religion and a horrible God.

lol You are confused.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So God's excuse for giving people unimaginably horrible suffering is that he is too stupid and immature to know what he's doing? Seems more like worshiping Azathoth than anything else.

What in the world are you talking about?

Originally posted by MRasheed
I'm human. You meant to say, "As disbelievers?"

lol, are you implying I'm not human

Originally posted by MRasheed
What in the world are you talking about? We're actually wondering what you're talking about. You quote the Quran and speak Jesus as Savior.

Now where in those books does it talk about blasphemers and where do those people end up??

Originally posted by MRasheed
lol

No, as long as you have breath you have the option of beliving and receiving your reward from the Lord.


Whoa, whoa, whoa, then what was all that talk about "good deeds need to outweigh the bad" shtick, when I was arguing the same exact thing concerning belief being the ultimate redemption in the eyes of God?

Originally posted by Deja~vu
We're actually wondering what you're talking about. You quote the Quran and speak Jesus as Savior.

Now where in those books does it talk about blasphemers and where do those people end up??

Where are you going with this? Last I checked, Islam favor Jesus.

So...where's JIA been?

Originally posted by Super Marie 64
Where are you going with this? Last I checked, Islam favor Jesus. Favors him only as a prophet, not a Messiah and Savior.

In Islam, Jesus is Masih, which is Arabic for Messiah.

Did he die for your sins? Does Islam teach that?

The sins I do weren't invented back then, so no.

How is that relevant anyway? Messiah means "Savior" more or less, and that's what they call him.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Did he die for your sins? Does Islam teach that?

jesus is a significant prophet in islam, but not divine

any death for your sin would be metaphorical in islamic teaching. his words carried some truth preparing the world for the final revelation from mohammed, who is also not seen as being personally divine, but just a prophet (if the chosen final prophet)

Originally posted by ska57
As was quoted from earlier, "No discipline seems pleasent at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."

or we get Columbine Massacre?

Originally posted by inimalist
jesus is a significant prophet in islam, but not divine

I didn't think it did.

Originally posted by MRasheed
What in the world are you talking about?

God creates all things.
There is horrible suffering that has nothing to do with free will.
You compared being harmed in that way to being hit by a baby.
God is causing the harm (see God creates all things).
God is only as responsible for his actions as a baby.

That would be your argument, not mine. I just think there isn't a god.

Originally posted by MRasheed
I'm human. You meant to say, "As disbelievers?"

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, are you implying I'm not human

lol No. I was just pointing out that your "humans think that God is wrong!" line was very inaccurate, since I'm human and think no such a thing. lol

Originally posted by Robtard
Whoa, whoa, whoa, then what was all that talk about "good deeds need to outweigh the bad" shtick, when I was arguing the same exact thing concerning belief being the ultimate redemption in the eyes of God?

Since I have no idea when someone is destined to die, I can't kill a sinner based on my understanding. He very well might turn his life around tomorrow and live the next 20 years as the most righteous man ever.

That was my point.

Now if he did do a death bed conversion, I wouldn't wish to discourage it, but (assuming he was truly sincere) his punishment wouldn't be as bad as it would if he hadn't repented. But the good deeds he did as an unbeliever meant nothing and didn't count at all towards his score, so after he converted both his good and bad deeds are zeroed out except for the unforgivable sins. So, considering he will die in another ten minutes, he has that much time to stagger his weak and dying body somewhere and try to go some real good deeds right quick so those unforgivable sins won't outweigh them. lol

Originally posted by MRasheed
lol No. I was just pointing out that your "humans think that God is wrong!" line was very inaccurate, since I'm human and think no such a thing. lol

do you think humans should have mercy for eachother regardless of their beliefs? should you be merciful to a jew if they are in need? should I be merciful to a believer when they are in need?

or, in your definition of benevolence, am I suppose to refuse you aide because you are different than I?

Originally posted by Deja~vu
I didn't think it did.

well, like, in Islam, nobody is divine like that, not even Mohammed

in fact, while Jesus is a prophet, they don't think he brought the truth. he was just preparing the world for Mohammed. basically, he isn't a prophet because he spoke the true word, but because he would make people ready to accept the true word.

all the stuff that contradicts Islam in the bible is thought to be because of this. If Jesus had the truth revieled to him, he would have said the same as mohammed

Originally posted by inimalist
do you think humans should have mercy for each other regardless of their beliefs? should you be merciful to a jew if they are in need? should I be merciful to a believer when they are in need?

Of course.

Originally posted by inimalist
or, in your definition of benevolence, am I suppose to refuse you aide because you are different than I?

That was certainly no definition that I had. You pulled that out of your butt.

Originally posted by inimalist
well, like, in Islam, nobody is divine like that, not even Mohammed

in fact, while Jesus is a prophet, they don't think he brought the truth. he was just preparing the world for Mohammed. basically, he isn't a prophet because he spoke the true word, but because he would make people ready to accept the true word.

all the stuff that contradicts Islam in the bible is thought to be because of this. If Jesus had the truth revieled to him, he would have said the same as mohammed

This is not true. The message of all the prophets was the same:

Believe in God, reject evil so you can avoid hell, do good so you may receive paradise, beware the penalty of the Last Day.

In addition to this they also had local, specialized instruction they gave to their specific people they were raised up among.

Originally posted by MRasheed
Of course.

That was certainly no definition that I had. You pulled that out of your butt.

the second follows from the first though, I was just trying to explain my position in more detail

but here is how I see it. If I am able to overcome my bias and be benevolent toward those who reject the things I hold sacred, and we both consider this to be a form of benovelence, why would God not be able to overcome such an obsticle?

I mean, I suppose I really take no issue with people having belief. It is what your life experiences have driven you to, the same as mine have pushed me in a different way. I have a problem with a God that is supposedly unable to overcome this simple social issue that both you and I are.

I mean, we can disagree fundamentally on an issue, and still discuss it as rational adults, as evidenced by this thread. You have treated me with nothing but respect, and I hope you feel the same. If God is supposed to surpass humans in benevolence and mercy, wouldn't being able to see past people's beliefs be trivial for him? wouldn't it matter more that someone is a good and moral person, than that they came to a different conclusion about the origins of the universe?

Originally posted by MRasheed
This is not true. The message of all the prophets was the same:

Believe in God, reject evil so you can avoid hell, do good so you may receive paradise, beware the penalty of the Last Day.

In addition to this they also had local, specialized instruction they gave to their specific people they were raised up among.

I could have gotten a minor in Islamic studies/medeteranian studies (as it was called at my university) but I never formalized it, I'm generaly paraphrasing things that people far more informed than I have said. Ive also read papers that talk about how Sidhartha is treated in the same way...

also, Im not sure where what you said is in conflict with what I said?

Originally posted by inimalist
the second follows from the first though, I was just trying to explain my position in more detail

but here is how I see it. If I am able to overcome my bias and be benevolent toward those who reject the things I hold sacred, and we both consider this to be a form of benovelence, why would God not be able to overcome such an obsticle?

I mean, I suppose I really take no issue with people having belief. It is what your life experiences have driven you to, the same as mine have pushed me in a different way. I have a problem with a God that is supposedly unable to overcome this simple social issue that both you and I are.

I mean, we can disagree fundamentally on an issue, and still discuss it as rational adults, as evidenced by this thread. You have treated me with nothing but respect, and I hope you feel the same. If God is supposed to surpass humans in benevolence and mercy, wouldn't being able to see past people's beliefs be trivial for him? wouldn't it matter more that someone is a good and moral person, than that they came to a different conclusion about the origins of the universe?

I see what the issue is. Here...

The Holy Qur'an 3:74
For His Mercy He specially chooseth whom He pleaseth; for Allah is the Lord of bounties unbounded.

The Holy Qur'an 3:129
To Allah belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. He forgiveth whom He pleaseth and punisheth whom He pleaseth; but Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

You're seeing it as something God CAN'T do, like there is a block or something. As the Author of this Game of Life we are experiencing, in which it ends with the dispensing of great rewards and great punishments, God has explained what the rules are. Following these rules and taking advantage of how they work is the difference between prosperity and damnation.

Your approach of interpreting certain matters in which you are questioning God's intent, authority, etc. is not a good path to take in this. lol God said that he mercy is reserved for those who choose to believe, and that company will find His mercy to be a blessed overflow far greater than any other being who practices mercy is able to conjure. But you are saying, "Well, because He's not showing mercy over here, He has a problem!!"

Truly I fail to see how that attitude will profit you.

Originally posted by inimalist
I could have gotten a minor in Islamic studies/medeteranian studies (as it was called at my university) but I never formalized it, I'm generaly paraphrasing things that people far more informed than I have said. Ive also read papers that talk about how Sidhartha is treated in the same way... also, Im not sure where what you said is in conflict with what I said?

These are the points you said that are at odds with Jesus' prophetic office:

Originally posted by inimalist
1.) while Jesus is a prophet, they don't think he brought the truth
2.) he isn't a prophet because he spoke the true word, but because he would make people ready to accept the true word
3.) If Jesus had the truth revealed to him, he would have said the same as mohammed

The first point is wrong because all the prophets brought the exact same message... Believe in God, reject evil so you can avoid hell, do good so you may receive paradise, beware the penalty of the Last Day.

The second point is wrong because, not only did he utter the same message as Muhammad, but in addition to this, he prophecized the coming of Muhammad. Muhammad's message was more universal in scope in that it was the cultivated development of an entire believing community, while Jesus' message was primarily of local flavor and directed toward the children of Israel.

The third point was wrong because Jesus did say the same message as Muhammad, but more narrow in focus towards a specific audience.

bc we are surounded by evil...

God gave me a brain. I use it, so I guess I fail the test?

Ultimately, there is no "us" to test.

Originally posted by Mindship
Ultimately, there is no "us" to test.

such a logical answer

Originally posted by alltoomany
such a logical answer Only if you go by my favorite God metaphor.

Originally posted by BlackC@
It is said that we are tested in all that we do.

Why does God test us? What's the point? It seems like a very mean thing to do. Because he wants to.

so we know the diffrence