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Is Wolverine a better character or more interesting with or without his Adamantium skeleton and why?

With the adamantium. It made him a unique bundle of powers; he could beated, stabbed burned, thrown off high buildings etc. and could heal and survive, and come right back at his tormentor. It was an illustration of his unbreakable will.

I prefer the more "natural" Wolverine without adamantium.
His Regeneration is much faster because it doesn't have to fight the metal and his beastial nature is more pronounced, so the fight between the animal and the human Wolvie is more...striking.

I say without as well, ironically for the same reason as the first post. Getting his bones broken and beat, and then comming back from that is much more a show of indominable will that "Ha ha, you can punch me all day but my adamantium skull is indestructable" stuff. He was much more feral more animalistic, more tough, to take on people without his adamantium, and it gave the character impact as well since Magneto took his adamantium. It was like a real turning point in the character, an epic you can look back on, but then, like most things, the made somethin up to give it back to him, just like Magneto gets getting revived or what have you. They are too afraid to deviate from their little formula once they get a couple bad fan letters in the mail.

Originally posted by Onikirimaru
I say without as well, ironically for the same reason as the first post. Getting his bones broken and beat, and then comming back from that is much more a show of indominable will that "Ha ha, you can punch me all day but my adamantium skull is indestructable" stuff. He was much more feral more animalistic, more tough, to take on people without his adamantium, and it gave the character impact as well since Magneto took his adamantium. It was like a real turning point in the character, an epic you can look back on, but then, like most things, the made somethin up to give it back to him, just like Magneto gets getting revived or what have you. They are too afraid to deviate from their little formula once they get a couple bad fan letters in the mail.

I agree with most of this...but honestly we all knew it was only a matter of time before he got the stuff back..it was his trademark man..but yeah..good post...

I also liked the fact that wolverie so much more often had to actually THINK his way out of a fight, or strategize for a victory rather than get all "RRRRRRAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHH" while jumping aimlessly into the air arms flailing away... it honestly made for more interest in terms of the character himself IMO.

I selected w/out, because that six year period was when I started getting into Wolverine comics.... but on second thought, I want to change my vote to either. He's a great character either way.

Originally posted by Piedmon
I selected w/out, because that six year period was when I started getting into Wolverine comics.... but on second thought, I want to change my vote to either. He's a great character either way.
cheers

You know what, we should just go ahead and change this to the Wolverine forum. It's not like a thread can go five posts without involving him in some way....

Originally posted by Piedmon
You know what, we should just go ahead and change this to the Wolverine forum. It's not like a thread can go five posts without involving him in some way....
so true...so true...

i like him either way with it he's more of a challenge without it he had to formulate plans which required thought which is somethig I didn't even khow he was capable of at times.

adimantium but it doesnt really matter he is just kool

I voted w/adamantium cus he could jump off high places,hit by a train or a car, shot and pummeled and he would get back up. His Adamantium skeleton made him a uniqe character both strong in will and bones. Sure w/out the Adamantium skeleton his healing factor is much faster but with it he has both duarability and healing balanced. Plus I dont think w/out his A skel he could survive high speeding trains and shotguns to the face.

Originally posted by Marvel=DC
i like him either way with it he's more of a challenge without it he had to formulate plans which required thought which is somethig I didn't even khow he was capable of at times.

Wrong Forum.

Moving

Originally posted by jinzin
I agree with most of this...but honestly we all knew it was only a matter of time before he got the stuff back..it was his trademark man..but yeah..good post...

I also liked the fact that wolverie so much more often had to actually THINK his way out of a fight, or strategize for a victory rather than get all "RRRRRRAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHH" while jumping aimlessly into the air arms flailing away... it honestly made for more interest in terms of the character himself IMO.
I agree! Wolvie is supposed to be one of the two most accomplished martial artists of the 616 world...but he almost never shows it! Its just jumping into the fight, getting severely hit and then slashing through the opponents...no actual fighting skill at all!
Without the adamantium he's less durable and thus would be forced to actually USE these trained skills more often.
The other reasons why i prefer him this way i already posted above.

Without Adimantium. He goes primal with out the adminatium. The only problem with him with out adimantium, is that he can actually die. Sever his head clean off and put the head and body in two distant locations. Only way to kill Wolverine with out his adimantium. (Mentions that in the Xavier Protocols in the Onslaught Saga).

Originally posted by kichiku_beihei
Without Adimantium. He goes primal with out the adminatium. The only problem with him with out adimantium, is that he can actually die. Sever his head clean off and put the head and body in two distant locations. Only way to kill Wolverine with out his adimantium. (Mentions that in the Xavier Protocols in the Onslaught Saga).
Since his neck joints are not covered with adamantium (he couldn't move his head otherwise) it doesn't make any difference, whether his bones are covered or not...you could cut his head off in both cases!

awe crap...i'm the only one that went with option number 3....(I feel so lonely).............that stupid song is in my head and nothing i do can get it out

Originally posted by wannabe
Since his neck joints are not covered with adamantium (he couldn't move his head otherwise) it doesn't make any difference, whether his bones are covered or not...you could cut his head off in both cases!

I think thats a negative my friend. If his joints are not covered with adimantium, or connected somehow to the bone, how would it be possible for Wolverine to have his original skeleton. He's been thrown through buildings, hit by trucks, planes, jumped off of heli-carriars into buildings going god knows how fast, been burnt by the fricking SUN, been KFC'ed by sentinal death lasers, bullets and crap loads of more things, and not once has he ever lost a limb, or a pinkie.

Now in the Xavier Protoco's, Xavier could not find a conventional way to kill Wolverine with his adimantium skeleton (it says so last I checked). It wasn't until Magneto tore out his adimantium that Xavier found a some what more conventional way of killing Wolverine. Also, in the protocol's, it is explicitly said that hiw head must always remain detahced and far away from his main body so that his nerves/muscles/fleshy things, can not reconnect.

Thus concluding that his joints are not only laced with adimantium, but also some how connected directly to his bones. How? No idea. But I know I proved my point

With, I say. But in which comics can you find him without it? I'm still not quite there in reading the old ones!
Anyway that's weird, he shouldn't be able to move loads of other parts if the connecting part of his bones aren't laced.

An adamantium skeleton used to be unique, now everyone and their mother is getting one these days............

I liked him best without, pretty much for the reasons giving here:

Originally posted by Onikirimaru
I say without as well, ironically for the same reason as the first post. Getting his bones broken and beat, and then comming back from that is much more a show of indominable will that "Ha ha, you can punch me all day but my adamantium skull is indestructable" stuff. He was much more feral more animalistic, more tough, to take on people without his adamantium, and it gave the character impact as well since Magneto took his adamantium. It was like a real turning point in the character, an epic you can look back on, but then, like most things, the made somethin up to give it back to him, just like Magneto gets getting revived or what have you. They are too afraid to deviate from their little formula once they get a couple bad fan letters in the mail.

But his bone claws are uglier than his adamantium ones, that always irritated me in the comic.

So, guess I have to go for either way...

With.

Originally posted by kichiku_beihei
I think thats a negative my friend. If his joints are not covered with adimantium, or connected somehow to the bone, how would it be possible for Wolverine to have his original skeleton. He's been thrown through buildings, hit by trucks, planes, jumped off of heli-carriars into buildings going god knows how fast, been burnt by the fricking SUN, been KFC'ed by sentinal death lasers, bullets and crap loads of more things, and not once has he ever lost a limb, or a pinkie.

Now in the Xavier Protoco's, Xavier could not find a conventional way to kill Wolverine with his adimantium skeleton (it says so last I checked). It wasn't until Magneto tore out his adimantium that Xavier found a some what more conventional way of killing Wolverine. Also, in the protocol's, it is explicitly said that hiw head must always remain detahced and far away from his main body so that his nerves/muscles/fleshy things, can not reconnect.

Thus concluding that his joints are not only laced with adimantium, but also some how connected directly to his bones. How? No idea. But I know I proved my point
You only proved that some authors have absolutely NO IDEA of anatomy!!!

I had extensive anatomy lessons during my studies at university and i tell you, there is absolutely NO WAY his joint's can work if they should be covered with adamantium.
The metal may cover the bone surfaces but the tissue that connects the different bones has to be flexible, otherwise he couldn't move a single part of his body.
Why he doesn't loose any limbs (except during AoA...his left hand...and in ultimate...while Spidey was inside his body, he accidentally cut off one of his fingers...which proves MY point,btw)???
The answer is...EXAGGERATION !!!!!!!!!!!!

Btw...if we wanted to be precise, joints are not CONNECTED to the bones, they are build up by those surface parts of two or more bones that will articulate with each other, cartilage, ligaments and a fluidic substance!
Hope the picture helps you to understand!

Originally posted by wannabe
You only proved that some authors have absolutely NO IDEA of anatomy!!!

I had extensive anatomy lessons during my studies at university and i tell you, there is absolutely NO WAY his joint's can work if they should be covered with adamantium.
The metal may cover the bone surfaces but the tissue that connects the different bones has to be flexible, otherwise he couldn't move a single part of his body.
Why he doesn't loose any limbs (except during AoA...his left hand...and in ultimate...while Spidey was inside his body, he accidentally cut off one of his fingers...which proves MY point,btw)???
The answer is...EXAGGERATION !!!!!!!!!!!!

Btw...if we wanted to be precise, joints are not CONNECTED to the bones, they are build up by those surface parts of two or more bones that will articulate with each other, cartilage, ligaments and a fluidic substance!
Hope the picture helps you to understand!

Last time I checked, Wolverine was a FICTIONAL character in a COMIC BOOK. I have extensive knowledge in literature, and trust me, in a FICTIONAL world, anything is possible. It doesn't have to make sense, and it doesn't have to have any logic behind it. Get over it. So if you're suggesting that all comic book writers need to have a doctorate in the sciences, to make FICTIONAL characters and their abilities logical, then you my friend, have no business reading FICTIONAL literature.shocking

Originally posted by kichiku_beihei
Last time I checked, Wolverine was a FICTIONAL character in a COMIC BOOK. I have extensive knowledge in literature, and trust me, in a FICTIONAL world, anything is possible. It doesn't have to make sense, and it doesn't have to have any logic behind it. Get over it. So if you're suggesting that all comic book writers need to have a doctorate in the sciences, to make FICTIONAL characters and their abilities logical, then you my friend, have no business reading FICTIONAL literature.shocking
No need to be pissed...my friend!

What you are talking about is COMIC LITERATURE ANARCHY!
When i follow your course of argumentation (which seems pretty emotional btw), it is ok when Archangel would fly in space, when cyclops would breathe under water, when Prof. X would survive a 1000 meter fall without a broken bone...it's a comic, it doesn't need logic or have to make any sense, anything is possible. Sad and boring scenario i say!

Given the case we accept that there are persons with super powers in the comic world, we see a pretty normal world in which normal sciences and laws of nature still exist (including anatomy) and the super abilities work within the boundaries of these sciences OR it's stated that it's their essence to bend or break the laws of nature (reality warping, "cosmic" powers etc.).

Wolverine has absolutely no power which bends or breaks any law of nature and while his mutation changes his biochemistry and cellular processes (healing factor), which we have to accept because it's his power, his anatomy is no different from any other comic or real world character...well, apart from the claws of course!

And NO, the writers do not need a doctorate (i don't have one either) but they could be a little more accurate from time to time.
In this special case you don't even need a high IQ or ANY knowledge about anatomy...every little child can imagine that it would be hard to move when your ankles, knees, elbows etc. were made of or covered with unbendable metal!

We don't know what the bonding process did even. If they were bonded on a molecular level then that would mean that his bones would be virtually adamantium themselves. Now in order to keep his bones from ripping apart when ever he moves fast its concevable that some else was added to help hold the bones together. . . I mean we've seen often enough in 616 when things have been done that should have left him missing a limb or two. So there might have been something in the bonding process in 616 that keeps him together. . .

Emotional? Hardly. A little stimulated over inane comments. Maybe just a tad. Pretty much you just regurgitated what I wrote, but adding in little whisks of your commentary. It's either you accept that logic, natural laws, and so on, have zero relevance in a fictional world, or you believe that the comic world must obey logic and nonfictional laws. Pick a) or b). There is no wrong answer.

Comics are fueled by the imagination, not by sciences. I'm pretty sure shooting a beam of raw energy out of your eyes would definitely kill that person in oh so many ways. Having any sort of energy based powers would undoubtedly cause one self to explode when that person has no control over it. I can go on and on about every MU/DC/IH/TC characters scientific flaws, as can you.



Again, if the fictional world is boring, why bother reading it. People read comics because things can happen there, that obviously can not happen here. I would recommend you go read Batman if you are not already. It is a nudge more logical scenario there .

Originally posted by Creshosk
We don't know what the bonding process did even. If they were bonded on a molecular level then that would mean that his bones would be virtually adamantium themselves. Now in order to keep his bones from ripping apart when ever he moves fast its concevable that some else was added to help hold the bones together. . . I mean we've seen often enough in 616 when things have been done that should have left him missing a limb or two. So there might have been something in the bonding process in 616 that keeps him together. . .
Well, that's a lot of wishful thinking, isn't it?!

1) In AoA (just a variation of 616 from a point in time on, when Wolvie already had his metal) he lost a hand.
2) In Days Of Future Past (a possible future of the existing 616 where Wolvie already had his metal), when he gets incinerated, you can see that there is no connecting "molecular adamantium enriched" ligaments left between the bones.
3) In one comic (Earth X? I'm not sure.), Wolvies adamantium covered skull was taken from DOFP...and ONLY his skull. How, when the bones are held together with adamantium?

Originally posted by kichiku_beihei
...It's either you accept that logic, natural laws, and so on, have zero relevance in a fictional world, or you believe that the comic world must obey logic and nonfictional laws. Pick a) or b). There is no wrong answer.

Comics are fueled by the imagination, not by sciences. I'm pretty sure shooting a beam of raw energy out of your eyes would definitely kill that person in oh so many ways. Having any sort of energy based powers would undoubtedly cause one self to explode when that person has no control over it. I can go on and on about every MU/DC/IH/TC characters scientific flaws, as can you.

Absolutely right...in the case you described!
But in Marvel comics there ARE natural laws and normal sciences and every normal person there is described as to be bound to them. They are an integral part of that particular fictional world.
The super powers and super sciences are an addition that we have to accept when we want to read these comics...and we gladly do...that includes me.

My point is:
When Cyclops can shoot beams out of his eyes, it may go against known science and natural law BUT it's ok (even great) because that's his power.
In all other aspects he's described as a human being that is bound to the natural laws, existing even in Marvel comics.
Would he suddenly survive a hit of the Hulk without a bruise just for drama or something and later again reacts like a normal human to a punch of Gambit, it would be bullsh*t.
That's anarchy within the boundaries of this fictional universe and lessens the quality of the fiction (my opinion).

The same with Wolvie...
He can heal faster than it is possible within the boundaries of natural laws of Marvel universe but ok, it's his power.
In most other aspects (including anatomy, except the claws) he is a exceptionally trained but otherwise normal human. The metal is an artificial addition, without exceptional force not bendable and not part of his powers. So it would be bullsh*t when his joints were covered with adamantium and he could still move!
Colossus is made of metal, including his joints, but i would never have the idea to argue about that, because it's his power and within the frame of this universe organic metal simply IS flexible for him.
Originally posted by kichiku_beihei
Again, if the fictional world is boring, why bother reading it. People read comics because things can happen there, that obviously can not happen here. I would recommend you go read Batman if you are not already. It is a nudge more logical scenario there .
The boring thing is not the fiction itself. I mean, we're reading comics BECAUSE of the fiction.
The boring thing is, that when a character does something that he should not be able to do, according to the natural laws of the given world, it makes the whole thing more arbitrary and less special.
Example: Where is the specialty in Colossus nigh invulnerability, when even a person without it can take a Hulk-punch without any difficulties just because a writer thought it convenient...and it's fiction, so you can do EVERYTHING with the characters, even against the laws of the given world.

Originally posted by wannabe
Since his neck joints are not covered with adamantium (he couldn't move his head otherwise) it doesn't make any difference, whether his bones are covered or not...you could cut his head off in both cases! It was a early issue but wolverine did survive a full sword swing into the neck and the sword broke. its not neck muscles that holds your head on its the spine, which is covered in adamantium.

Originally posted by sapphiremouse
It was a early issue but wolverine did survive a full sword swing into the neck and the sword broke. So what?
When the sword hits one of the vertebrae of the spine, it will most definitly break when the force behind it is great enough, cause the vertebrae are made of bone, thus covered with adamantium in Wolvies case.
A sword swung into his neck does not necessarily have to decapitate him, i never said that, but it could (read below).
Originally posted by sapphiremouse
...its not neck muscles that holds your head on, its the spine, which is covered in adamantium. Wrong!!!
Its muscles, ligaments, tendons and the spine that hold your head on your body.
Thing is, the spine does not only consist of bony vertebrae but also of cartilage and ligaments between those. It's not at all a single bone that goes down straight from your head to your butt, otherwise you couldn't move it, and if you would have read my whole argumentation, you would have known that by now.
So if someone manages to get his sword between Wolvies vertebrae, he/she could cut his head off, that's all i'm saying.

Again, here is an anatomical pic of the upper spine...

I can see your point wannabe, i agree with kichiku beihei. Wolverine is a comic character, all the writers and pencilers that do comics at some time goin to slip up. Like in Days of Future Past, wolverine got totally vaporized by a sentinel. If it was in the real world...yes, lack of ligaments, tendons, muscles all his bones be in pieces. But, you see it as a whole complete skeleton. Dr. Doom animated his skeleton in Guardians of the Galaxy and it looks about the same as in Days of Future Past. You look at the wrist, elbow,shoulder and other joints they connected like a robot or a terminator.

Unless you have a particle beam that breaks up adamantium on a molecule level. You arent goin to cut his head off. Any blade attempted
to be used would break before damaging the adamantium laced bone.
It took the Hulks full crazy, savage, fury to pulp wolverine and break a single vertebrea.....in a what if hulk killed wolverine.

No great details are mentioned about the grafting process, even in the book.. The Science of the X-men.

Originally posted by sapphiremouse
I can see your point wannabe, i agree with kichiku beihei. Wolverine is a comic character, all the writers and pencilers that do comics at some time goin to slip up. Like in Days of Future Past, wolverine got totally vaporized by a sentinel. If it was in the real world...yes, lack of ligaments, tendons, muscles all his bones be in pieces. But, you see it as a whole complete skeleton. Dr. Doom animated his skeleton in Guardians of the Galaxy and it looks about the same as in Days of Future Past. You look at the wrist, elbow,shoulder and other joints they connected like a robot or a terminator. Yet in AoA (originating from a point in time of the ordinary 616 where Logan already had his metal, so there is no difference between current 616's and AoA's lacing process) he lost his hand at his wrist joints to Cyclop's beam, and in ultimate he(Spidey possessing him) cut his finger between his finger and middle hand bones and in regular timeline 616 Azazel specifically ordered his servant to cut Logan's limbs at his joints where it's possible, because his adamantium laced bones themselves would be impervious to any force?!

An animated skeleton of Doom is not such a good example for a "one-bone-skeleton", especially when the forces moving it could also keep it together without ligaments etc.

im old school when it comes to comics.....the above you listed in 616 , Aoa...LOL, ive no idea what that is. You seemed to miss a point, about how artistist pencil in the characters for us to be real. In Days of Future Past you see a whole skeleton that is together. Sure Dr. Doom used technology to animate wolverines skeleton but ive seen the skeleton about 5 times and its drawn the same. No seperation in any of the joints, they are hinged together like a robot.

I remember an issue Cable was sent to hunt wolverine down. He got his hand caught in a trap. Found the trap with his hand in it....so he used his own claws to cut the hand off instead of being captured. Once again over all the years they try to hold true to a sence of realizism but eventually something slips.

hhhmm....i think wolverine was in his feral, non-adamantium day. During that hunt down by Cable. It was like soo long ago.

Originally posted by sapphiremouse
im old school when it comes to comics.....the above you listed in 616 , Aoa...LOL, ive no idea what that is. You seemed to miss a point, about how artistist pencil in the characters for us to be real. In Days of Future Past you see a whole skeleton that is together. Sure Dr. Doom used technology to animate wolverines skeleton but ive seen the skeleton about 5 times and its drawn the same. No seperation in any of the joints, they are hinged together like a robot.

I remember an issue Cable was sent to hunt wolverine down. He got his hand caught in a trap. Found the trap with his hand in it....so he used his own claws to cut the hand off instead of being captured. Once again over all the years they try to hold true to a sence of realizism but eventually something slips. AoA = Ages of Apocalypse timeline
616 = synonym for the current, regular timeline Marvel universe

I like it when the artists try to handle the characters in ways that respect their powers as well as logic within the boundaries of the given comic universe. This way it's still fantastic and "super" yet more believable, convincing and closer to the real world, which makes an identification easier and intensifies the reading experience - for me at least.
Of course it's also your prerogative to feel differently and i'm the last to tell you how you have to experience the comics.


I meant, that the animated skeleton could be held together by some magnetic forces (just an example), induced by the animating technology. It's only logical that it is some kind of comic-science-energy-manipulation, since there is no visible mechanism that replaces muscles and ligaments in order to move it.

In Earth X (i don't know if you read this series), they took only the skull from Wolvie's Days of Future Past skeleton for resurrection purposes. What does that imply?!

My point is, that there are many examples of Wolverine surviving damage unharmed, when his limbs etc. usually should have been torn off. No one usually cares, because the majority of the readers and artists know his skeleton is unbreakable. But the majority of the readers and artists also don't know about the anatomical principles behind a skeleton, so something "slips" from time to time. Nonetheless there are some who gave those principles credit and showed the distinct possibility, that Logan's bones may be indestructible, but his skeleton as a whole is not, which is only logical and doesn't negate his status as a fictional superbeing.
For all we know Adamantium is unbendable except by extreme forces like Magneto's powers or generators that manipulate it at a subatomic level, like it's done to give Ultron(the most advanced piece of adamantium technology) his ability to move at all. Since Wolvie doesn't have such a generator or magnetic powers, the lacing process is only stated to cover his bones with the metal and there is proof, that his limbs can be seperated from his body, we can safely assume, that a decapitation is possible. And we're discussing only the possibility of a decapitation.

Originally posted by roughrider
With the adamantium. It made him a unique bundle of powers; he could beated, stabbed burned, thrown off high buildings etc. and could heal and survive, and come right back at his tormentor. It was an illustration of his unbreakable will.

First time poster here... Oh joy a "Quote on Quote" noob...

I showed up here and I believe you are wrong Rider.

I mainly joined beacuse of this.

I believe he had healing powers BEFORE his "Surgery". I believe that is also the only reason he survived the surgery in the first place.

Not to mention the grammer was starting to drive me insane.

I like both. Bone claw has the feel of him being a true mutant, no artificial doodads. Adamantium claws on the other hand make him feel like a lethal weapon. I'd lean towards the adamantium claws a bit more but it's not a crying shame for him to have the bone claws. I just wished it was drawn a bit better since adamantium claws are just them laced and their surfaces where smoothe; Logan's bone claws were drawn like long rough stones.

Originally posted by wannabe
You only proved that some authors have absolutely NO IDEA of anatomy!!!

I had extensive anatomy lessons during my studies at university and i tell you, there is absolutely NO WAY his joint's can work if they should be covered with adamantium.
The metal may cover the bone surfaces but the tissue that connects the different bones has to be flexible, otherwise he couldn't move a single part of his body.
Why he doesn't loose any limbs (except during AoA...his left hand...and in ultimate...while Spidey was inside his body, he accidentally cut off one of his fingers...which proves MY point,btw)???
The answer is...EXAGGERATION !!!!!!!!!!!!

Btw...if we wanted to be precise, joints are not CONNECTED to the bones, they are build up by those surface parts of two or more bones that will articulate with each other, cartilage, ligaments and a fluidic substance!
Hope the picture helps you to understand!




Why could't a very thin bit of adamantium be both flexible and unbreakable?

Like a thin steel cable, but with the complete unbreakability of the fictional metal.